Adolin and Maya

[the_archduke]

I'm rereading Oathbringer and just got to the part in part 5 where Adolin is fighting the Thunderclast.  Maya tells him her name.  Maya warns him of impending danger.  Maya summons faster than 10 heartbeats.  Its all amazing.

 

It got me wondering about how Adolin is going to revive her.  Adolin in chapter 12 of RoW refuses the suggestion that he get rid of the blade.  There is no indication he is getting any radiant powers yet, but what if he is already swearing the oaths?  What if, when he gets to the same level Maya was with her forsworn Edgedancer, that is how she is revived?  So lets say the forsworn Edgedancer was at the 4th oath.  Perhaps Adolin will swear that and revive her, skipping all of the intermediate steps.  Plate and blade immediately.  It would make for an amazing scene.

 

Edited September 24, 2020 by the_archduke

[Xerun]

I feel like it needs to be different. Brandon has said (IIRC) that it’s possible to revive a dead spren and that the easiest way would be to have the knight reswear the oaths as we saw with Kaladin. 
 

Somehow I feel Adolin swearing the Oath isn’t the way it’s done. That feels too easy in a way. I think he’ll need to do something special to revive Maya like interacting with her in the Cognitive realm or getting her stormlight. I don’t know I don’t feel I have a good theory for this. But I also feel it’s happening in book 4. 

[LuckyJim]

25 minutes ago, Xerun said:

I feel like it needs to be different. Brandon has said (IIRC) that it’s possible to revive a dead spren and that the easiest way would be to have the knight reswear the oaths as we saw with Kaladin. 
 

Somehow I feel Adolin swearing the Oath isn’t the way it’s done. That feels too easy in a way. I think he’ll need to do something special to revive Maya like interacting with her in the Cognitive realm or getting her stormlight. I don’t know I don’t feel I have a good theory for this. But I also feel it’s happening in book 4. 

To add to this, swearing the original oaths only works if it's the Radiant who broke their bond in the first place. Kaladin reviving Syl is a simple matter, because he's repairing their bond, but the Radiant who bonded Maya is dead, so it wouldn't work the same way. Brandon has suggested it could be possible, but it would require something extra.

[Pathfinder]

Not to be a buzzkill, but we have a WoB, that reswearing the oaths (like with Kaladin) only works with the original knight. For anyone else something "extra" would be needed. So oaths alone do not work. I can post the WoB later if you would like to see it. 

[Rainier]

58 minutes ago, Xerun said:

Somehow I feel Adolin swearing the Oath isn’t the way it’s done. That feels too easy in a way. I think he’ll need to do something special to revive Maya like interacting with her in the Cognitive realm or getting her stormlight. 

31 minutes ago, LuckyJim said:

To add to this, swearing the original oaths only works if it's the Radiant who broke their bond in the first place.

What have we seen each time someone swears an oath? First, you say the words. Then the spren accepts them. Why, if you're Maya, would you ever accept words from humans again? Even if Adolin can somehow revive her, there's no reason to think she'll bond a human ever again. In fact I'd guess the only reason she would bond a human is because she has no other choice.

[Xerun]

1 hour ago, Rainier said:

What have we seen each time someone swears an oath? First, you say the words. Then the spren accepts them. Why, if you're Maya, would you ever accept words from humans again? Even if Adolin can somehow revive her, there's no reason to think she'll bond a human ever again. In fact I'd guess the only reason she would bond a human is because she has no other choice.

I think it’ll be a case by case basis. Granted we’ve not seen any deadeye’s return to life. But we have seen the groups of Spren and only the Dustbringers and Willshapers Spren descendants have decided to not bond humans. 
 

 

I think it quite likely that depending on a Sprens persona they would definitely be up for more bonds. That is unless the Spren also consciously chose to become Deadeyes during the Recreance. 

[Pathfinder]

14 hours ago, Xerun said:

I think it’ll be a case by case basis. Granted we’ve not seen any deadeye’s return to life. But we have seen the groups of Spren and only the Dustbringers and Willshapers Spren descendants have decided to not bond humans. 

That is not entirely accurate. Honorspren on whole had to be convinced after Syl bonded but originally wanted nothing to do with humans. The Stormfather had to be forced. Ivory at the time was the only inkspren to bond, against the rest of his people's wishes. Lift is the only edgedancer we have seen bond a spren at all, and that was at the order of The Circle. Couple that with the other edgedancer spren glaring at them. Truthwatcher spren seem to be more open minded as we have seen multiple radiants by them. Lightweaver spren (cryptics) are only doing it to experiment and are willing to risk their lives to do so, but seem convinced that it is a one way trip, and it is inevitable that they will end up with the same result, "death". Stoneward spren also glared at them when they visited the city, so they are out too. Finally Skybreaker we know where they stand. So pretty much of the ten, only two on whole as an order are ok with humans and that are the Truthwatchers and Skybreakers. For literally all the others, as a whole they don't like humans, and only outliers have bonded. And in edgedancer's case, it was forced/assigned. 

Now how the orders see things since Rhythm of War is a different matter. but those that liked humans were certainly the anomaly after the spren death, not the norm. 

Edited September 25, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Solant]

I'd love to see Dalinar involved in this process. I've wondered what "Bondsmith" really means, and if he actually can create a bond to restore her. Alternately it would be awesome to see Renarin work some weird regrowth magic on a deadeye.

[Halyo_Alex]

33 minutes ago, Solant said:

I'd love to see Dalinar involved in this process. I've wondered what "Bondsmith" really means, and if he actually can create a bond to restore her. Alternately it would be awesome to see Renarin work some weird regrowth magic on a deadeye.

I have a sneaking suspicion it will take all 3 of them to truly fix Maya and make her "alive" again.

[Xerun]

On 26/09/2020 at 0:21 AM, Pathfinder said:

That is not entirely accurate. Honorspren on whole had to be convinced after Syl bonded but originally wanted nothing to do with humans. The Stormfather had to be forced. Ivory at the time was the only inkspren to bond, against the rest of his people's wishes. Lift is the only edgedancer we have seen bond a spren at all, and that was at the order of The Circle. Couple that with the other edgedancer spren glaring at them. Truthwatcher spren seem to be more open minded as we have seen multiple radiants by them. Lightweaver spren (cryptics) are only doing it to experiment and are willing to risk their lives to do so, but seem convinced that it is a one way trip, and it is inevitable that they will end up with the same result, "death". Stoneward spren also glared at them when they visited the city, so they are out too. Finally Skybreaker we know where they stand. So pretty much of the ten, only two on whole as an order are ok with humans and that are the Truthwatchers and Skybreakers. For literally all the others, as a whole they don't like humans, and only outliers have bonded. And in edgedancer's case, it was forced/assigned. 

Now how the orders see things since Rhythm of War is a different matter. but those that liked humans were certainly the anomaly after the spren death, not the norm. 

Well this is a Rhythm of War spoiler board so it is fair game to say that they have. Saying that the Spren didn’t want to bond feels disingenuous. They saw no reason to prior to and during the events of book 1 & 2 but a few had started and that’s definitely changed with book 3. It’s not a coincidence that Spren startedrebonding  at the same time. They knew it was time to begin again.  
 

we know we have an amount of at least 200ish Windrunners. We have at least 4 Lightweavers, 2 Edgedancers, 4 Truthwatchers, Skybreakers that have all appeared onscreen. So we know those are bonding humans and are not just one off outliers. 
 

Willshapers have been confirmed to not want to bond with Humans. Dustbringers we’ve only had one account but it’s likely they are against humans. 
 

Bondsmiths I’m going to have to disagree with you. You can’t force a bond on a Spren. The Stormfather didn’t want to. But he also did bond. And it’s ultimately the Sprens decision. We haven’t seen enough of the other two to know where they stand. 
 

and that just leaves Elsecallers and Stonewards. I think Ivory said he was the only one to bond, but that was during the Prologue of book 2 I think so there is room for more since then. But they have at least bonded one. 
 

Stonewards remain a complete mystery. But I feel ruling them out because the Spren flared at some humans is a bit much. 
 

But that’s 6 orders that have definitely bonded humans, 2 against and 2 unknown. 

[Solant]

56 minutes ago, Xerun said:

 

Bondsmiths I’m going to have to disagree with you. You can’t force a bond on a Spren. The Stormfather didn’t want to. But he also did bond. And it’s ultimately the Sprens decision. We haven’t seen enough of the other two to know where they stand. 
 

I wasn't thinking he would force it, but more create a pathway to achieve it. His spren is the storm father, who's to say he wouldn't accept the words etc.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Xerun said:

Well this is a Rhythm of War spoiler board so it is fair game to say that they have. Saying that the Spren didn’t want to bond feels disingenuous. They saw no reason to prior to and during the events of book 1 & 2 but a few had started and that’s definitely changed with book 3. It’s not a coincidence that Spren startedrebonding  at the same time. They knew it was time to begin again.  
 

But they didn't want to bond. That is spread all across Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and Oathbringer. A lot can happen during that year to change things, and we have no idea the extent of that change nor what caused it. 

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we know we have an amount of at least 200ish Windrunners.

We also know they stopped bonding, and we don't know why.

Also there is this in rhythm of war chapter 10 from Syl's own lips

"The ones who have joined us did so against the will of the general body of their peers"

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We have at least 4 Lightweavers,

I already mentioned that the cryptics are bonding as a science experiment. They think they are going to die from doing it, but that the information is worth the risk. 

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2 Edgedancers,

We have no idea what is the reason they bonded. 

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4 Truthwatchers,

Already said the truthwatchers are pretty open to bonding from what we have seen with Ym and Stump. 

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Skybreakers that have all appeared onscreen.

Already mentioned them

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So we know those are bonding humans and are not just one off outliers. 

I said as of Oathbringer the spren of 90 percent of the orders saw humans in a negative light. We have no idea what if anything changed and to what extent. And the numbers offered do not show otherwise yet. 

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Bondsmiths I’m going to have to disagree with you. You can’t force a bond on a Spren. The Stormfather didn’t want to. But he also did bond. And it’s ultimately the Sprens decision. We haven’t seen enough of the other two to know where they stand. 

There is an interlude with Syl that has information that I do not know if you have read, and I believe we cannot post here. I will be happy to continue to talk on that subject on that thread. 

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and that just leaves Elsecallers and Stonewards. I think Ivory said he was the only one to bond, but that was during the Prologue of book 2 I think so there is room for more since then. But they have at least bonded one. 

I think we will totally see more bonded knights, but that does not automatically mean the spren of each order on whole have already forgiven and forgotten and want to bond enmasse. 

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Stonewards remain a complete mystery. But I feel ruling them out because the Spren flared at some humans is a bit much. 

The entire city didn't like the fact that Adolin, Kaladin, and Shallan was there. They were tolerated. It also wasn't just glares, it says they were eyed with "overt hostility". 

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But that’s 6 orders that have definitely bonded humans, 2 against and 2 unknown. 

Nit picking aside, my point was for the most part spren were either downright hostile or indifferent in regards to bonding humans. The starting spren that were bonding allllllll the way up to Oathbringer were the unique. Spren may be bonding now, but that doesn't change for a very long time spren on whole felt humans killed them, and Maya is one of those killed spren. All I am saying is it certainly leans more towards 50/50 on how Maya will feel regarding the whole thing if she is revived. It is far from clear cut that she will be hopping for joy towards humans. (and yes I know of the WoB that states if Maya was alive she would have bonded Adolin. Which I take to mean had she not been killed by a human, and was a normal radiant edgedancer spren, she would have bonded him. )

Hope that clarified things. 

Edited September 27, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Calderis]

At this point, I totally believe that all Adolin needs to do is get to the point that he's the equivalent of a third oath Edgedancer where Maya could be a blade through him to be healed. 

Yes, swearing the oaths is not in itself enough. But per the fact he 7 heartbeat summon, she's already healing imo. Whatever "extra" needs to happen I think already has. 

I don't think he'll get any powers until she's healed, and I at that point if she wants to end the bond that's her choice... But I don't think she will. 

As to the idea that she's going to hate humans in general... I think the spren were at minimum complicit in the recreance and that it was most likely their idea to begin with. So no, seeing that the Desolations have returned, I think she'll serve to give us some much needed information. 

[+Bliev]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

to the idea that she's going to hate humans in general... I think the spren were at minimum complicit in the recreance and that it was most likely their idea to begin with. So no, seeing that the Desolations have returned, I think she'll serve to give us some much needed information.

I’ve always felt this too—that they were in it together. Seeing how close the spren bond is, I can’t imagine they didn’t discuss it with their spren. They couldn’t have planned it and hidden it! I also think that maybe maya’s the Envoy that goes with Adolin and Shallan to talk to the Honorspren, to explain what the Recreance really ways. (I’m envisioning her like the old woman in Titanic telling her story lol)

[Pathfinder]

Eh to each their own

Personally the information we get in Syl's interlude makes me think more and more my theory that Dalinar and his connection abilities and other thing I cannot say here are what will help restore what was ripped out of Maya so she can be fully revived. That imho the 7 heartbeats were the result of the perpendicularity, and we have seen oathbringer respond to Dalinar the same way Maya has responded to Adolin in the past (a feeling of urging, and recognizing the wielder). And imho I just don't see the spren being a part of the death and still be able to keep that fact from the rest of the spren. 

But YMMV

[+Bliev]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Eh to each their own

Personally the information we get in Syl's interlude makes me think more and more my theory that Dalinar and his connection abilities and other thing I cannot say here are what will help restore what was ripped out of Maya so she can be fully revived. That imho the 7 heartbeats were the result of the perpendicularity, and we have seen oathbringer respond to Dalinar the same way Maya has responded to Adolin in the past (a feeling of urging, and recognizing the wielder). And imho I just don't see the spren being a part of the death and still be able to keep that fact from the rest of the spren. 

But YMMV

I agree with you on the Dalinar connection requirement based on the Syl interlude. I don't think Adolin can do it himself. But I think the spren could have kept it from their unbonded brethren if they so chose. Agree to disagree on this possibility. But really have no Ryshadium in this race. hehe

[Pathfinder]

12 hours ago, Bliev said:

I agree with you on the Dalinar connection requirement based on the Syl interlude. I don't think Adolin can do it himself. But I think the spren could have kept it from their unbonded brethren if they so chose. Agree to disagree on this possibility. But really have no Ryshadium in this race. hehe

No problemo. Like i said to each their own. Personally i think the bonded spren knew what was going to happen to them, were against it, but couldn't stop it. There are some scenes in the novels and some WoB i believe support that, but that's just my own theory. Totally get it will work or not work for others. 

Edited September 27, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Ghanderflaffle]

I personally don’t think she will be revived, at least not in this book. Brandon can’t have every single character become a knight, there wouldn’t be any variety. If she is revived, Adolin won’t be the same as the other Edgedancers. Something is going to be different. Maybe he will have access to the blade and plate without waiting for the heartbeats, but not be able to take in Stormlight. 

[+Bliev]

1 hour ago, Ghanderflaffle said:

I personally don’t think she will be revived, at least not in this book. Brandon can’t have every single character become a knight, there wouldn’t be any variety. If she is revived, Adolin won’t be the same as the other Edgedancers. Something is going to be different. Maybe he will have access to the blade and plate without waiting for the heartbeats, but not be able to take in Stormlight. 

You know I think there’s something to the idea that Adolin will be something different when he heals her, not quite Radiant. And I like that. But I’ve come around to the idea that I want allllll the Radiants. I think i changed my mindset that this is a different sort of magic, and theyre in a war, and I want more magical warriors and not fewer (i.e. superhero style). But I think it’s a delicate trade off of viewpoints, for sure.

[ftl]

5 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

No problemo. Like i said to each their own. Personally i think the bonded spren knew what was going to happen to them, were against it, but couldn't stop it. There are some scenes in the novels and some WoB i believe support that, but that's just my own theory. Totally get it will work or not work for others. 

Curious, what are those scenes/WoBs?  It is a theory that interests me

Edited September 27, 2020 by ftl

[delphinousy]

i think that maya will be revived completely without oaths, and after she is revived, adolin will either be able to then start swearing oaths, or will actually have a fully formed nahel bond without oaths. i think the reason that she is recovering is because adolin was shown to actually treat his sword like a person, and has basically believed that and acted that way ever since he got her. we know that spren are mostly a cognitive realm entity, and so it is his thoughts about her that have been slowly restoring her, because his specific belief that she was 'his' sword has been slowly counteracting her belief that she is broken beyond repair. 
i think that when she if finally healed, it will be a really major moment for the spren, that until that happens, most of the unbonded spren will be resistant to rejoining with the radients again, and only small numbers will bond, but once adolin heals maya, a lot more will start bonding.

[Pathfinder]

On 9/27/2020 at 5:07 PM, ftl said:

Curious, what are those scenes/WoBs?  It is a theory that interests me

Been swamped and still am, so don't have as much time as I would like but I will reference the basics of it in the spoiler below:

Spoiler

 

1. We have confirmation from Brandon that both sides have to agree to break the bond so as to not kill the spren

WoB

Spoiler

 

Overlord Jebus

Can a spren willingly break their bond anytime between the First and Fifth Oath, with their Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, this is possible--

Overlord Jebus

Essentially committing suicide isn't it though--

Brandon Sanderson

I just ascribe to that question-- A spren could at any point break it. Can they break it safely? That's a different question.

Overlord Jebus

Can they break it safely? *laughs*

Brandon Sanderson

There are methods in place where it can be stopped. So yes it can be done. But once you've started into this, once you've chosen on both sides, it's a dangerous process. But yes it can be done, and it can be done safely.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

 

 

 

2. We have confirmation from Brandon that a Lightweaver can break the first oath (life before death, etc), and that count for breaking the oaths enough to kill the spren

WoB

 

Spoiler

 

Questioner

Kaladin kind of went back on his Oaths in the second book, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. He started down that path.

Questioner

How could Shallan or Lightweavers go back on the Truths they make? And did Shallan do any of that in Oathbringer?

Brandon Sanderson

No, the Cryptics-- remember, how the spren is viewing this is very important. The Cryptics have an interesting relationship with truth. Harder to break your Oaths in that direction with a Cryptic. Harder to move forward, also, if you're not facing some of these things and interacting with them in the right way. But, while I can conceive a world that it could happen, it'd be really hard to for a Lightweaver to do some of the stuff. Particularly the ones close to Honor, you're gonna end up with more trouble along those lines, let's say.

Questioner

So then, what happened with the Lightweavers during the Recreance? Did they break their Oaths?

Brandon Sanderson

They did break their Oaths. I mean, breaking your Oaths as in "walking away from the first Oath" will still do it, regardless of what Order you are. You can actively say, "I am breaking my Oaths and walking away." Anyone has that option. But you also are holding the life of a spren in your hand.

The Great American Read: Other Worlds with Brandon Sanderson (Oct. 25, 2018)

 

 

3. Kaladin had been breaking his oaths for some time and had still been able to use his powers. Spren "enforce" the individual's personal interpretation of the oaths. When Kaladin was not protecting, and knew he was going against Adolin for selfish motivations, was when the power didn't work. Meanwhile he was able to keep the information from Dalinar, and work with Moash while still having his powers. 

 

4. A shard cannot take back a magic system. Sorry cannot think of a better way to say it. Basically the example given was on a certain other planet that involves metal. If a certain individual was doing things the shard didn't like, the shard couldn't just remove the ability. The individual still gets to use them. 

(need some more time to pull up this WoB. Gotta remember the exact wording to find it)

5. I think there is more but this is off the cuff so I will add as I recall them

 

TLDR: The knights could have come to whatever conclusion they did that caused them to believe breaking the bonds was in the best interest. The spren could not then unbond them, or prevent them from using their powers because it would kill the spren anyway, and if the individual believed in what they were doing, the powers wouldn't stop working. The radiants could then use their powers all the way up to the point they decided to break the oaths. They would then actively choose to choose destination before journey, weakness before strength, etc etc breaking the oath right then and there. 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by Pathfinder

[DeployParachute]

On 9/24/2020 at 5:24 PM, Rainier said:

Why, if you're Maya, would you ever accept words from humans again?

Because it is Adolin Kholin. He's just so good, so pure...inhumanly so, you could say. /sarc

I seriously hate this plot point the most. The idea that Adolin is going to revive a Deadeye spren just because he's the nicest, most noblest guy around. The only one who ever thought to treat their blade like something with an individual identity. I'm still holding out hope that this was just a one-off thing that Brandon thought would be fun to throw out there. Though as the more questions and excitement about it arise, and the more WoBs we get, I see that this hope is foolish.

I swear, this Maya revival better cost Adolin something dearly, or he is officially the lamest hero character in the Cosmere.

[+Bliev]

@Pathfinder I concede the point on this. I think you're likely right about the oath-breaking. But I don't know how they could have coordinated the plan without the spren knowing. Unless they did know and fought it the whole way. 

@DeployParachute I love Adolin's genuine niceness. It's such a nice change to have a person who is just...good and whole. Who has had hard things happen and is still mostly okay. I see a lot of folks really annoyed with Adolin and all, but man, I just identify so hard with him. I don't think he'll easily revive Maya, and I  agree with Pathfinder that it will take something more than his grit and plucky tenacity to do so, but I am really invested (pun not intended) in their journey together. 

Edited October 15, 2020 by Bliev

[Bremen]

On 9/26/2020 at 9:26 PM, Calderis said:

Yes, swearing the oaths is not in itself enough. But per the fact he 7 heartbeat summon, she's already healing imo. Whatever "extra" needs to happen I think already has. 

I've felt for awhile that the "extra" is that the spren needs to choose the person. A bond can't just be forced on them, even if they're a deadeyes (perhaps a Bondsmith could get around this?). Given the events of Oathbringer I think it is a safe assumption that Maya has choosen Adolin.

Also I do not trust WoB on this issue at all. If Adolin does revive Maya then he can't just tell us about it ahead of time. He wants to save that for the actual book.