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Why doesn't Odium destroy Braize?


Aspiring Writer

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Okay, this might be a dumb question, but I have been looking for an answer and haven't found one yet, so I'll ask it here. Why doesn't Odium just destroy Braize? In the Coppermind, it mentions destroying Braize as an option, so why not do it? From what I understand, Odium is more confined than limited/weakened on the planet, so why not just destroy it and leave? Ruin seems to be pretty capable of destorying a planet, so it' doesn't seem like it would take too much of his power, and if it did, he could just recuprate before going after his next Shard. Am I missing something here?

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Could be competing Shards. If he expends too much of his power to do something, then Cultivation could immediately take the opportunity and kill/splinter him, she wouldn't give him time to recuperate.

Or whatever binds him to Braize doesn't have to do with the planet and would still be active, just confining him to an empty space. We don't know how the confinement work.

 

My guess is on the former though. I think the times we've seen inter-shardic conflict go down to the level of depending on humans to make a difference are all because the Shards are nearly perfectly evenly matched, so whoever makes the first power-intensive move loses. That's how it was in Preservation v Ruin; anything one could do, the other could counter, and the differences were at the margins, which is why the actions of the humans could make a difference. That (relatively) little bit of Atium the humans kept hidden was enough to compensate for the extra investiture Preservation put in humans. And so at the end, they were *exactly* evenly matched - Vin and Ati both mutually-killed each other because their powers were exactly equal. My guess is that it's similar here - Cultivation and Odium are both playing the game of "What's the minimum amount of power I can expend to do some damage to the other guy." If one of them ever messes up and does something too costly, the other can pounce and win.

It's why Odium is mostly working on the level of "supply the Fused with some voidlight, appear in some visions but other than that just boss around his Unmade" and Cultivation is like "here let's just tweak Dalinar's memories a bit and give Lift some food-to-investiture powers" and neither is like "OK let's just go out guns blazing."

No idea why Honor+Cultivation didn't team up and destroy Odium when there was two of them, though. Maybe Honor got himself into some Oaths he couldn't break, because he was too Honorable like that. Not sure.

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1 hour ago, ftl said:

No idea why Honor+Cultivation didn't team up and destroy Odium when there was two of them, though. Maybe Honor got himself into some Oaths he couldn't break, because he was too Honorable like that. Not sure.

My guess is that Cultivation saw a Future that Honor didnt, and it involved his Death.

theres a WoB that she did help Honor.

 

and destroying Braize would cause him to expend Investiture in ways that Shards dont like doing.

the WoB i included isnt about Odium or Braize but i think its relevant enough

Ive know for a while this had to be the case(a waiting game. Seeing who expends the energy first to get the first strike), as in Oathbringer, its revealed that the only reason Odium hasn’t destroyed the Stormfather is because he’s afraid of a strike from Cultivation. 

if destroying a spren(a really powerful one admittedly) is enough to expose him, then imagine if he tried to destroy Braize. He would most definitely be extremely wounded or splintered 

————————————————————————————

 

“I do not feel like men. I do not sicken like men. I am. The Stormfather rumbled. I could have been destroyed, though. Splintered into a thousand pieces. I live only because the enemy fears exposing himself to a strike from Cultivation.”

————————————————————————————

Zas

So then why are they hesitant to directly fuel Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

Why are they hesitant to? What do you mean by directly fuel Allomancy?

Zas

You mention in the Hero of Ages Q&A that they can directly fuel Allomancy, like Vin does with Elend, but it requires expending their energy in a way they are hesitant to do.

Brandon Sanderson

Because it imbalances them more. Does that make sense? Like, if you are putting your energy here, rather than fighting the other force, you give them an edge somewhere else by trying to gain an edge here. And you have to make sure that's really worth it. Imagine a chess game. Is it worth sacrificing my pawn here to expose myself over here?

Orem signing (Sept. 22, 2012)

Edited by Eternal Khol
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7 hours ago, ftl said:

No idea why Honor+Cultivation didn't team up and destroy Odium when there was two of them, though. Maybe Honor got himself into some Oaths he couldn't break, because he was too Honorable like that. Not sure.

Possibly they got in each others way.  We don't know if you can tag team in the spiritual realm.

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He probably could destroy Braize if he wanted to, but I don't know what that would accomplish. Like he can't leave the solar system because of some deal he had with Honor that we don't know the details of, and Shards aren't capable of breaking their words, as long as the Intent was there when they gave it. 

So if he destroyed Braize, he'd be just as trapped as ever, but without a planet to use as his base of operations. 

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On 9/23/2020 at 10:24 AM, Gilphon said:

He probably could destroy Braize if he wanted to, but I don't know what that would accomplish. Like he can't leave the solar system because of some deal he had with Honor that we don't know the details of, and Shards aren't capable of breaking their words, as long as the Intent was there when they gave it. 

So if he destroyed Braize, he'd be just as trapped as ever, but without a planet to use as his base of operations. 

Odium did not make a deal with Honor. Honor pulled a Preservation and did something to trap him. Odium has no word he has to keep. And (According to the Coppermind) if he destroys Braize, he is free to leave the Roshar system. 

 

On 9/23/2020 at 0:31 AM, ftl said:

Could be competing Shards. If he expends too much of his power to do something, then Cultivation could immediately take the opportunity and kill/splinter him, she wouldn't give him time to recuperate.

Or whatever binds him to Braize doesn't have to do with the planet and would still be active, just confining him to an empty space. We don't know how the confinement work.

 

My guess is on the former though. I think the times we've seen inter-shardic conflict go down to the level of depending on humans to make a difference are all because the Shards are nearly perfectly evenly matched, so whoever makes the first power-intensive move loses. That's how it was in Preservation v Ruin; anything one could do, the other could counter, and the differences were at the margins, which is why the actions of the humans could make a difference. That (relatively) little bit of Atium the humans kept hidden was enough to compensate for the extra investiture Preservation put in humans. And so at the end, they were *exactly* evenly matched - Vin and Ati both mutually-killed each other because their powers were exactly equal. My guess is that it's similar here - Cultivation and Odium are both playing the game of "What's the minimum amount of power I can expend to do some damage to the other guy." If one of them ever messes up and does something too costly, the other can pounce and win.

It's why Odium is mostly working on the level of "supply the Fused with some voidlight, appear in some visions but other than that just boss around his Unmade" and Cultivation is like "here let's just tweak Dalinar's memories a bit and give Lift some food-to-investiture powers" and neither is like "OK let's just go out guns blazing."

No idea why Honor+Cultivation didn't team up and destroy Odium when there was two of them, though. Maybe Honor got himself into some Oaths he couldn't break, because he was too Honorable like that. Not sure.

I agree that the reason is probably that destroying it may leave him vulnerable to Cultivation. As to them teaming up, I don't think Cultivation is that useful in a fight. She seems more of a background character that pulls the strings. Also, remember, Odium killed two shards before, Devotion and Dominion, so if she helped Honor more, she may have just ended up being splintered.

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1 minute ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Odium did not make a deal with Honor. Honor pulled a Preservation and did something to trap him. Odium has no word he has to keep. And (According to the Coppermind) if he destroys Braize, he is free to leave the Roshar system. 

Yeah, see, the way that Perservation trapped Ruin was by making a deal with him. That's basically the only way to trap Shards. 

And I genuinely have no idea where you're getting this 'Odium's free if he destroys Braize' thing; where specifically on the Coppermind does it say that?

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22 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

Yeah, see, the way that Perservation trapped Ruin was by making a deal with him. That's basically the only way to trap Shards. 

And I genuinely have no idea where you're getting this 'Odium's free if he destroys Braize' thing; where specifically on the Coppermind does it say that?

Well, this is embarrassing. I tried searching for the quote in the Coppermind and found nothing. I know I read it somewhere, but I guess it's not in the Coppermind like I thought. So yes, it's possible whatever is binding him won't go away with the planet. I will concede that.

 

However, I wholeheartedly disagree that Honor and Odium made a deal that resulted in Odium being trapped. It makes no logical sense on how that would happen, as Odium would not make a deal and would just kill him, which he did. Whatever Honor did, it was not a deal they made, as Odium would be nearly impossible to negotiate with, especially when he is intent on killing you. And if you're bringing up the Ruin and Preservation pact, I will remind you that Preservation did technically break his oath by not letting Ruin destroy all humanity. Ruin actually said that when talking with Vin. So not sure how that works with SHards being unable to break oaths. And Preservation trapped Ruin by sacrificing his mind, which was not part of the deal and Ruin was very against, seeing as he kept trying to get out and killed Preservation once he was free.

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1 hour ago, Aspiring Writer said:

I will remind you that Preservation did technically break his oath by not letting Ruin destroy all humanity.

Technicly, Preservation dont break Oath - he knows that he will be weaker than Ruin at the end. He delay him.

Also, I understand whole thing as Honor using Cosmere-wide mechanic to bond Odium. First, Honor with Cultivations help are both stronger than Odium alone, so to make chances equal Odium had to "step down" and bring fight on human level. He tried to Invest as little as possible, but by creating Oathpact Honor forced him to Invest more - because against resurecting Heralds he need his own forces (Unmade and Fused). And doing so, Odium bond himself by Investing into system. And re-Invest is realy hard, and will exhaust him. So he has to go around.

I also think Odium wasnt alone when he killed Honor. "WE killed you" remember?

I think Autonomy has Avatar on Ashyn.

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9 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Well, this is embarrassing. I tried searching for the quote in the Coppermind and found nothing. I know I read it somewhere, but I guess it's not in the Coppermind like I thought. So yes, it's possible whatever is binding him won't go away with the planet. I will concede that.

 

However, I wholeheartedly disagree that Honor and Odium made a deal that resulted in Odium being trapped. It makes no logical sense on how that would happen, as Odium would not make a deal and would just kill him, which he did. Whatever Honor did, it was not a deal they made, as Odium would be nearly impossible to negotiate with, especially when he is intent on killing you. And if you're bringing up the Ruin and Preservation pact, I will remind you that Preservation did technically break his oath by not letting Ruin destroy all humanity. Ruin actually said that when talking with Vin. So not sure how that works with SHards being unable to break oaths. And Preservation trapped Ruin by sacrificing his mind, which was not part of the deal and Ruin was very against, seeing as he kept trying to get out and killed Preservation once he was free.

It's a matter of Intent. Shards are bound by what they think of a deal as meaning, not the exact words of the deal. Which can leads to things when different Shards have different ideas about what they're agreeing to, which can lead to one of them appearing to break their word. That's happened with Preservation and Ruin, and with the 'let's all agree to not interfere with each other' agreement that Endowment chastises the others for not agreeing to. There's a WoB about this somewhere, but I can't find it right now

And, well, we don't know exactly why Honor and Odium were able to reach any kind of agreement. (Really we don't know what Odium's win conditions even are; it's hard to imagine that 'convince Dalinar to release him' could've been his only plan for the entirety of the ten thousand years he's been trapped in the system. Like he seems to want to help the Fused conquer Roshar, but how does that help him get free?) My speculation, however, would be that there was room of negotiation because Odium didn't want to let Honor and Cultivation fight him simultaneously, and Honor didn't want to let Odium go and attack any of the more vulnerable Shards, so it was in both of their interests to agree to some ground rules.

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9 hours ago, Gilphon said:

It's a matter of Intent. Shards are bound by what they think of a deal as meaning, not the exact words of the deal. Which can leads to things when different Shards have different ideas about what they're agreeing to, which can lead to one of them appearing to break their word. That's happened with Preservation and Ruin, and with the 'let's all agree to not interfere with each other' agreement that Endowment chastises the others for not agreeing to. There's a WoB about this somewhere, but I can't find it right now

And, well, we don't know exactly why Honor and Odium were able to reach any kind of agreement. (Really we don't know what Odium's win conditions even are; it's hard to imagine that 'convince Dalinar to release him' could've been his only plan for the entirety of the ten thousand years he's been trapped in the system. Like he seems to want to help the Fused conquer Roshar, but how does that help him get free?) My speculation, however, would be that there was room of negotiation because Odium didn't want to let Honor and Cultivation fight him simultaneously, and Honor didn't want to let Odium go and attack any of the more vulnerable Shards, so it was in both of their interests to agree to some ground rules.

I don't think Odium would bound himself like that. that would create too many obstacles for him. And remember, he has killed two Shards before (and there's a theory he had help from Autonomy's avatar) so I don't think he needed a deal to beat them. And I don't think oath acts are how Shards fight. Honor could have done whatever he did without needing to make a pact and was simply an ability he had.

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9 hours ago, Gilphon said:

It's a matter of Intent. Shards are bound by what they think of a deal as meaning, not the exact words of the deal. Which can leads to things when different Shards have different ideas about what they're agreeing to, which can lead to one of them appearing to break their word. That's happened with Preservation and Ruin, and with the 'let's all agree to not interfere with each other' agreement that Endowment chastises the others for not agreeing to. There's a WoB about this somewhere, but I can't find it right now

 

These are two terrible examples. 
 

first, the Shards never actually made an Oath to stay away from each other. It was just a suggestion that some of them took seriously. If they all actually did make an Oath, they would be incapable of forming pairs or whatever groupings they wish.

second. Preservation didnt break the deal. He just left a loophole to be exploited. the deal was Ati would eventually get to destroy the planet(if he was alive.) but what wasnt part of the deal is that Preservation couldnt attack or trap ruin and eventually kill Ati and stop the deal

 

 

 

Nameless36

All the Shards basically agreed not to settle on the same planet. Six of them - that we know of - immediately, basically broke that.

Brandon Sanderson

So... they did not make an oath to it. There was a suggestion made... and perhaps the people who made the suggestion did not understand that, if you want the Shards to do something, you need an actual Oath. And they did not get one.

Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019)

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So, you're right that that was bad example, but I also thank you for posting that, because it made me realize that the WoB I was thinking of must've happened after that one, and that was enough of a hint for me to Find the one that makes it explicit that Ruin was bound because of an Oath that he interpreted different than Preservation did, and refers to that not being the only time that's happened:

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Shadow Guardian

You have mentioned that the Shards... they did not make an oath to have only one per planet, although the suggestion was made. Have any of the Shards made an oath that has bound themselves, expecting the others to follow suit?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Oaths have been made, that have been unwise oaths. You have even seen one of those - the oath between Ruin and Preservation. But that's not the only example of oaths being used in ways that bind the Shards in ways they weren't expecting.

 

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31 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

So, you're right that that was bad example, but I also thank you for posting that, because it made me realize that the WoB I was thinking of must've happened after that one, and that was enough of a hint for me to Find the one that makes it explicit that Ruin was bound because of an Oath that he interpreted different than Preservation did, and refers to that not being the only time that's happened:

 

That doesn't prove your point. Remember, Ruin and Preservation were working together on something. Odium was trying to kill Honor. Why would they ever make a pact? The stuff Preservation did to trap Ruin was not because of the pact, but a loophole in the pact. he could have done it without the pact, but then Ruin couldn't/wouldn't help create humanity. Shards would not make pacts lightly, and Odium is the last Shard in the universe that would bound himself with those restrictions when he is a Shard that refuses to even let himself invest in a planet.

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Could have been a pact where both thought they were getting one up on the other, maybe?

E.g. maybe Odium thought that the pact would let him "duel" Honor and Cultivation in order instead of together, thinking that Honor was agreeing to it just because Honor was being corrupted by his Shardic intent. But maybe it had a loophole that then basically kept Odium stuck in the Rosharan system until those duels happened... ....and didn't actually compel either Honor or Cultivation to fight, so then they both retreated and said "yep, you're stuck here with us now."

OK, so fleshing out the theory - the "pact" could have been like formalizing duel arrangements. "Honor and Cultivation will fight Odium individually, not bringing their power to bear on him together. The battle will take place in the Rosharan system, with H+C starting on Roshar and O on Braize and not leaving until the fight is complete. " Odium agrees because he thinks he's got better chances at two sequential duels rather than a one-on-two fight. H+C agree because they want to bind Odium to the system for as long as possible.

Hidden loophole - no timelimit and no requirement to engage, allowing Honor and Cultivation to basically hide and stall. They think they can just do this indefinitely!  ...so Odium is trying to draw Honor out to fight him - by sending Desolations to create a situation so dire for Roshar that Honor HAS to come out of hiding to protect the Rosharans using his Shardic powers, thus opening himself up to a strike.

And so we get the setup for Stormlight history - Odium trapped in the Rosharan system, Honor and Cultivation hiding, Odium trying to provoke H+C by doing horrible things to Roshar (+Ashyn?) to make H+C use their powers and thus battle him.

Huh, I'm starting to see this theory as a plausible explanation. I don't think we have text or WoB support for it, but it's at least a plausible mechanism for how Honor might have "trapped" Odium in the Rosharan system, why Odium cares about all this desolations and voidbringers stuff, why the Odium vs H+C conflict never got resolved via a straight-up shardfight, and why now O and C are both trying to be behind-the-scenes and manipulative rather than going in guns blazing.

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On 9/26/2020 at 11:46 PM, ftl said:

Could have been a pact where both thought they were getting one up on the other, maybe?

E.g. maybe Odium thought that the pact would let him "duel" Honor and Cultivation in order instead of together, thinking that Honor was agreeing to it just because Honor was being corrupted by his Shardic intent. But maybe it had a loophole that then basically kept Odium stuck in the Rosharan system until those duels happened... ....and didn't actually compel either Honor or Cultivation to fight, so then they both retreated and said "yep, you're stuck here with us now."

OK, so fleshing out the theory - the "pact" could have been like formalizing duel arrangements. "Honor and Cultivation will fight Odium individually, not bringing their power to bear on him together. The battle will take place in the Rosharan system, with H+C starting on Roshar and O on Braize and not leaving until the fight is complete. " Odium agrees because he thinks he's got better chances at two sequential duels rather than a one-on-two fight. H+C agree because they want to bind Odium to the system for as long as possible.

Hidden loophole - no timelimit and no requirement to engage, allowing Honor and Cultivation to basically hide and stall. They think they can just do this indefinitely!  ...so Odium is trying to draw Honor out to fight him - by sending Desolations to create a situation so dire for Roshar that Honor HAS to come out of hiding to protect the Rosharans using his Shardic powers, thus opening himself up to a strike.

And so we get the setup for Stormlight history - Odium trapped in the Rosharan system, Honor and Cultivation hiding, Odium trying to provoke H+C by doing horrible things to Roshar (+Ashyn?) to make H+C use their powers and thus battle him.

Huh, I'm starting to see this theory as a plausible explanation. I don't think we have text or WoB support for it, but it's at least a plausible mechanism for how Honor might have "trapped" Odium in the Rosharan system, why Odium cares about all this desolations and voidbringers stuff, why the Odium vs H+C conflict never got resolved via a straight-up shardfight, and why now O and C are both trying to be behind-the-scenes and manipulative rather than going in guns blazing.

Why? Why would he agree to that when he can just kill them? The guy is a much better fighter than Honor or Cultivation. At this point, we're saying that pacts are the only way he can kill them, which is not the case. They can splinter them any time they like, as seen with Ruin splintering Preservation. Remember, he killed Honor. I do not agree that he made a pact, it sounds so stupid for two enemies to ever even pause to talk to each other.

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Quote

Why? Why would he agree to that when he can just kill them? The guy is a much better fighter than Honor or Cultivation. At this point, we're saying that pacts are the only way he can kill them, which is not the case. They can splinter them any time they like, as seen with Ruin splintering Preservation.

 I mean, if "they can splinter them anytime they like", then Cultivation would already be dead.

She's not. Therefore, something prevented Odium from splintering her!

Quote

Remember, he killed Honor. I do not agree that he made a pact, it sounds so stupid for two enemies to ever even pause to talk to each other.

Enemies make cease-fires and agreements all the time. Both sides think it's beneficial to them; one of the sides is wrong about it.

Edited by ftl
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4 minutes ago, ftl said:

Maybe because he believed that two-on-one, he might lose.

No, I don't think I'm saying that. My guess is that he thought he'd have a better chance of killing them this way. Honor and Cultivation, conversely, thought it benefited them.

If "they could splinter them anytime they like", Cultivation would already be dead, so clearly that's not the case!

Yes, if the pact happened, Odium probably thought Honor was stupid for making the pact, Honor probably thought Odium was stupid for making the pact, presumably by the conclusion of Stormlight Archive we'll see which one of those was actually getting one over the other.

If he thought he would lose to a two one one, which is already something that I hesitate to believe after he killed both Devotion and Dominion, why not go for a Shard that isn't with another Shard? He didn't have to attack them right after Ambition. He could've gone for Endowment or Autonomy.

I seriously question why both of them even would want a oathpact before fighting to the death. I would think Odium would want to use any dirty trick he could to kill them, and bounding himself to something seems against his nature, seeing as he avoided investing himself anywhere, probably to hold an edge in a fight.

I worded that badly. I meant that he can try and splinter them without an oathpact, there isn't a prerequisite that the only way he could do anything was with a pact, which is a point some people above had made and I am completely against. Whether or not you made the point, just thought it needed to be said.

And again, they didn't make one! he bound Odium to Braize to imprison him, he didn't need to make an oathpact for that to happen, similar to how Preservation didn't need to make an oathpact to trap Ruin and focus his power in Atium. There is no oathpact between the two.

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On 9/22/2020 at 11:23 PM, Aspiring Writer said:

Okay, this might be a dumb question, but I have been looking for an answer and haven't found one yet, so I'll ask it here. Why doesn't Odium just destroy Braize? In the Coppermind, it mentions destroying Braize as an option, so why not do it? From what I understand, Odium is more confined than limited/weakened on the planet, so why not just destroy it and leave? Ruin seems to be pretty capable of destorying a planet, so it' doesn't seem like it would take too much of his power, and if it did, he could just recuprate before going after his next Shard. Am I missing something here?

From an old, old WoB (so while probably still at least 85% true, may not be 100% as things in the story have been tweaked and clarified since then):

Spoiler
Quote

Questioner

When one of the shards, like Odium, move from world to world in the cosmere, does their presence, like the metals they leave behind and their magic, leave with them?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium never really settled on a planet.  He is now settled on Roshar and his magic has permeated things.  Leaving would be very difficult for him. It would either involve leaving behind some of his power or ripping that out, which would be a difficult process.  So yes it is very tough to leave.

Phoenix Comicon 2013, https://wob.coppermind.net/adv_search/?page=2&ordering=rank&tags=odium

 

Destroying Braize would likely be the Physical symptom of Odium ripping out the power that is invested there.  Rayse is obsessed with staying who he is--that's why he didn't pick up any of the Shards that he Splintered.  Having Investiture, even the smallest amount, changes you.  The more you have of a source, the more it changes you in that direction.  It can be resisted, it can be fought, it can be channeled--but it cannot be stopped.  Rayse went after the Shard Odium on purpose, because it (he calls it and himself Passion) are well-suited to each other--so he gains power without being changed much.  Refusing to change who he is and refusing to be ruled are the two biggest constants to Rayse's personality that I can find after having read the books 3+ times and spent hours reading all of the WoB that I could find on the Internet.

For someone to be functionally immortal, it is better to continue fighting in a cycle of events that gives you a chance to win even if you have lost a hundred times in a row, so long as none of the losses actually mean anything to you--and as near as we can tell, the cycle of Desolations was better for Odium than it was for humanity or Honor or Cultivation.  Why risk changing who you are when that is the driving force of your existence, and the risk is utterly unnecessary?

Spoiler
Quote

Question

Is the fact that Odium can't leave Roshar a direct result of the Oathpact, or something else?

Brandon Sanderson

Not a direct result of the Oathpact, but the Oathpact was part of it.
 

Question ()

How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?

Brandon Sanderson

The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds).

 

 
The Oathpact that we are actually aware of is only part of what is keeping Odium imprisoned.  Probably because of something that Honor did with the Heralds, since Odium wasn't actually a party to the Oaths given.  it's possible that there's some other Oaths going around that haven't had any sort of prominent mention or referral in the books, however; the naming of a Champion certainly has nothing to do with the Oathpact, but is something which is binding. 
 
It seems likely to me that Honor did something with the help of the Heralds which trapped Odium, which caused Odium to stay in one place long enough to become invested in a planet, which caused him to refuse to leave because doing so would endanger who he is.

Related WoB:

Spoiler
Quote

Blightsong (paraphrased)

Is it normal for people to become Connected to an area after being there for a bit, like with Kel and wherever he was when he found the Ire, or is something special going on?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It is normal for a cognitive shadow to get stuck to places, because they exist through investiture it is normal for them to get tied to an area. Kelsier was still in Scadrial when he found the Ire. This happened with Odium and the two shards on Roshar, Preservation to Ruin, and the Heralds.

Also Phoenix Comicon 2013, https://wob.coppermind.net/adv_search/?page=2&ordering=rank&tags=odium

 

 
Also, Hoid calls the holder of Cultivation Slammer.
 
Spoiler
Quote

 

 

This might be a joke, or it could be that Cultivation has provided the broad confines of the 'cell' that is trapping Odium.

Edited by kaellok
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