RoW Chapter 12 Discussion

[radiantAlThor]

8 minutes ago, Cosmical Existence said:

I find it interesting how fascinated with her he is. I wonder what he would think of the issues she's been having with her personalities (the ones that Radiant was hinting at in this chapter).

I'm actually curious about how much Hoid knows about Shallan. He's been talking to her since she was a child, so does he know her deeper secrets? He does seem to have more connection with her than any other character we've seen so far.

[Kingsdaughter613]

4 hours ago, Bliev said:

You know, I hadn't connected him to Heyer in that way, which is surprising given my penchant for Regency romance novels (and my love of JAFF). I do wonder if he's quite the perfect archetype since he's not avoiding his "romantic" responsibility per se (which is how I often see that character--the reluctant lover who is dashing and chivalrous to all), but his likability, wealth, attractiveness, loyalty, and privilege is definitely Corinthian in nature. I suppose we could also connect him to the aristocracy in that Regency way, and talk about his roguish avoidance of responsibility in his declining the King role...

Yes, five stars. I like.

Well, the Corinthian in ‘The Corinthian’ is trying to get married, as I recall. Adolin’s numerous flirtations did fit the archetype though.

[Karger]

3 hours ago, Doneil said:

I think Hoid should set up in Urithiru as a psychiatrist. Its obviously needed and i think he is the only one qualified 

Unfortunately I don't think Hoid can do that right now.  In the original WoKp there is actually a character who is a psychiatrist(more or less) and is actually quite good at it.

2 hours ago, Cosmical Existence said:

I will stand with you if it comes to that.

Solidarity.

2 hours ago, radiantAlThor said:

I'm actually curious about how much Hoid knows about Shallan. He's been talking to her since she was a child, so does he know her deeper secrets? He does seem to have more connection with her than any other character we've seen so far.

Hoid has a lot of practice reading people.  He certainly understands what Shallan is feeling although I doubt he did the detective work to find out the specific causes(even though he certainly could have if he wanted to).

Edited September 24, 2020 by Karger

[+Bliev]

43 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Well, the Corinthian in ‘The Corinthian’ is trying to get married, as I recall. Adolin’s numerous flirtations did fit the archetype though.

I'll have to revisit--my memory was that he was doing so only under duress haha.

But I agree overall, looking back, it fits him well.

[Kingsdaughter613]

23 minutes ago, Bliev said:

I'll have to revisit--my memory was that he was doing so only under duress haha.

But I agree overall, looking back, it fits him well.

Yes, because he needs an heir and isn’t looking for romance. Similarly, Adolin wants to get married because he’s expected to. He’s very happy to have a non-romantic arranged marriage.

And then they both fall in love, because that’s how these things tend to work.

[Michael Portz]

11 hours ago, The Traveller said:

I don’t know, I just don’t see him as hard headed.
I think it is too strong a word to describe what he is. 

Nuances in meaning are too often lost with me when trying to express myself in english  How is “steadfast”? I just think it would be too weak.

[Aon Tia]

1 hour ago, Michael Portz said:

Nuances in meaning are too often lost with me when trying to express myself in english  How is “steadfast”? I just think it would be too weak.

Haha it is ok. I guess resilient may be.... 

[Fallohidden]

I love Adolin in this chapter. I love Kaladin in this chapter as well for different reasons. Feeling very shocked by the sudden finality of him never seeing Rock again.

One thing I felt really strongly while reading, and maybe this is an unpopular opinion, but I’m feeling Veil is approaching the fine line of become toxic for Shallan and also Adolin. In past books I kinda put up with Veil because she helped with all of Shallan’s sleuthing and espionage but the more she lingers around, the more I have this weird feeling in the pit of my stomach. Brandon writes her in a fun way, but then there’s little hints - like how Veil can hold more alcohol than Shallan (even though it’s the same body, brain, weight, biology as Shallan, just with an illusion over her) so that gives Shallan an excuse to put more alcohol in her body. It’s Veil’s choice to drink but it’s Shallan’s body she’s dumping it into. Adolin senses she’s not dealing with condition well either and that she’s escalating to something. I feel an underlying discomfort from Adolin about it despite how wonderfully understanding he is. 

Does anyone else cringe at the Veil persona?

[+Oltux72]

This chapter's annotations rule out the Horneater Peaks as a theater of action we are going to see for now. This means that the Knights Radiant are not making an effort to retake them. So why did Odium occupy them in Shadesmar? A mistake because he thought it was the only perpendicularity his enemies could use? Is he expecting an external intervention?

[Mage_914]

I don't know about the rest of you guys but the segment where Kaladin was walking to his room, shut the door and slumped to the floor too tired to even cry? That was the most real writing I've ever seen come from the hands of a human being. I felt that in my soul. The way that you put on the mask so others can't see it. The way that once you're alone you are really truly alone. "Titles couldn't fill a room with life". Holy crap. I have never in my life related more to a fictional character than I did when reading those few paragraphs. That was almost too real. Normally I don't get emotional about this stuff, I'm typically pretty hard to faze when it comes to fiction, but I honestly had to stop reading for a minute.

[Ailvara]

2 hours ago, Fallohidden said:

One thing I felt really strongly while reading, and maybe this is an unpopular opinion, but I’m feeling Veil is approaching the fine line of become toxic for Shallan and also Adolin. In past books I kinda put up with Veil because she helped with all of Shallan’s sleuthing and espionage but the more she lingers around, the more I have this weird feeling in the pit of my stomach. Brandon writes her in a fun way, but then there’s little hints - like how Veil can hold more alcohol than Shallan (even though it’s the same body, brain, weight, biology as Shallan, just with an illusion over her) so that gives Shallan an excuse to put more alcohol in her body. It’s Veil’s choice to drink but it’s Shallan’s body she’s dumping it into. Adolin senses she’s not dealing with condition well either and that she’s escalating to something. I feel an underlying discomfort from Adolin about it despite how wonderfully understanding he is. 

Does anyone else cringe at the Veil persona?

First of all, let's not forget this is Veil's body as much as Shallan's. Whatever any of the personas does, this is all Shallan. It's been beaten to death how DID works already so I'm not going to repeat it.

But, yes, absolutely, Veil is toxic. Shallan is toxic too, in different ways, she's the one crippled by fear, the one who's holding them back from facing the Truths or looking for help. Looks like currently Radiant is the only one left with a good head on her shoulders, unless we just haven't seen enough of her. This toxicity is one of the key reasons why I believe the balance between the alters can't be the endgame for Shallan. She just doesn't make it work as well as she thinks she does.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Ailvara

[Karger]

6 hours ago, Fallohidden said:

I have this weird feeling in the pit of my stomach. Brandon writes her in a fun way, but then there’s little hints - like how Veil can hold more alcohol than Shallan (even though it’s the same body, brain, weight, biology as Shallan, just with an illusion over her) so that gives Shallan an excuse to put more alcohol in her body.

So Veil really can't she just drinks more.  It is a difference in attitude and comfort levels not biology.

6 hours ago, Fallohidden said:

It’s Veil’s choice to drink but it’s Shallan’s body she’s dumping it into.

It is also Veil's body.  Thanks to stormlight we don't have to worry about liver poisoning or hangovers and Shallan appears comfortable with Veil using the body on occasion just like Veil is comfortable with Shallan using the body.  Think about how it must look from Veil's end.  I sometimes get the body so I can go drinking but Shallan gets to have sex and she uses our mutual body to do it with one of my friends.

6 hours ago, Fallohidden said:

Adolin senses she’s not dealing with condition well either and that she’s escalating to something. I feel an underlying discomfort from Adolin about it despite how wonderfully understanding he is. 

Shallan is still figuring some stuff out.  I do think she is getting better.

[Ailvara]

39 minutes ago, Karger said:

Shallan is still figuring some stuff out.  I do think she is getting better.

What makes you think so? Shallan herself thinks she's stagnating - and even this sounds as legit as when she says she's fine... Adolin and Pattern would probably have the most informed opinion at the moment, and even they (at least Adolin) probably don't know all of it (Formless):

Quote

“She’s fine,” Kaladin said. “She’s found a balance. You’ve heard her explain how she thinks she’s fine now.”

“Like how you tell everyone you’re fine?” Adolin met his eyes. “This isn’t right, how she is. It hurts her. Over this last year I’ve seen her struggling, and I’ve seen hints that she’s sliding—if more slowly now—toward worse depths. She needs help, the kind I don’t know if I can give her.”

Their table hummed. “You are right,” Pattern said. “She hides it, but things are still wrong.”

 

[jamskinner]

7 hours ago, Fallohidden said:

I love Adolin in this chapter. I love Kaladin in this chapter as well for different reasons. Feeling very shocked by the sudden finality of him never seeing Rock again.

One thing I felt really strongly while reading, and maybe this is an unpopular opinion, but I’m feeling Veil is approaching the fine line of become toxic for Shallan and also Adolin. In past books I kinda put up with Veil because she helped with all of Shallan’s sleuthing and espionage but the more she lingers around, the more I have this weird feeling in the pit of my stomach. Brandon writes her in a fun way, but then there’s little hints - like how Veil can hold more alcohol than Shallan (even though it’s the same body, brain, weight, biology as Shallan, just with an illusion over her) so that gives Shallan an excuse to put more alcohol in her body. It’s Veil’s choice to drink but it’s Shallan’s body she’s dumping it into. Adolin senses she’s not dealing with condition well either and that she’s escalating to something. I feel an underlying discomfort from Adolin about it despite how wonderfully understanding he is. 

Does anyone else cringe at the Veil persona?

Nope. Not a single soul. Better luck next time. 

[spaidapig]

7 hours ago, Fallohidden said:

Brandon writes her in a fun way, but then there’s little hints - like how Veil can hold more alcohol than Shallan (even though it’s the same body, brain, weight, biology as Shallan, just with an illusion over her) so that gives Shallan an excuse to put more alcohol in her body.

When I read this, I thought, that Veil just drinks more before she burnes the alcohol away with Stormlight.
So she will get more drunk than Shallan would, because of this. Maybe Shallan gets uncomfortable earlier than Veil.

[Karger]

4 hours ago, Ailvara said:

What makes you think so? Shallan herself thinks she's stagnating - and even this sounds as legit as when she says she's fine... Adolin and Pattern would probably have the most informed opinion at the moment, and even they (at least Adolin) probably don't know all of it (Formless):

Shallan's is better then she was in OB or WoR.  She no longer ignores Veil or Radiant and is becoming a bit more comfortable with herself and getting closer to the truth.

[+Bliev]

47 minutes ago, Karger said:

Shallan's is better then she was in OB or WoR.  She no longer ignores Veil or Radiant and is becoming a bit more comfortable with herself and getting closer to the truth.

Agreed. Shallan has progressed from where she was. That doesn't mean that she (a) doesn't have farther to go, or (b) isn't at risk of backsliding. But even Radiant says that the other potential "unformed" personalities are waiting to see if "three" can work. That means that it currently is "working", but not that it will forever.

I think Shallan as three personalities forever can work, actually, though I'm probably in the minority here. What is at issue is not the personalities per se, but the underlying trauma she needs to address and take responsibility for her lies/truths. She hasn't done that yet, which threatens her growth as a Radiant on the one hand, and her mental stability on the other. If she's not lying anymore, and she's able to function with the "three" then I don't see it as an issue. If she's no longer functional and dissociating more? That's a problem. 

[Ailvara]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Shallan's is better then she was in OB or WoR.  She no longer ignores Veil or Radiant and is becoming a bit more comfortable with herself and getting closer to the truth.

This only means that she got better at the end of, or soon enough after OB, not that she is currently getting better. She fell into a "local optimum" that is now starting to show its shortcomings.

15 minutes ago, Bliev said:

I think Shallan as three personalities forever can work, actually, though I'm probably in the minority here. What is at issue is not the personalities per se, but the underlying trauma she needs to address and take responsibility for her lies/truths. She hasn't done that yet, which threatens her growth as a Radiant on the one hand, and her mental stability on the other. If she's not lying anymore, and she's able to function with the "three" then I don't see it as an issue. If she's no longer functional and dissociating more? That's a problem. 

The personas are a direct result of her inability to deal with trauma. I agree that she has to deal with her past first and foremost, and not concentrate on the alters. I just think that reintegration will naturally follow because there will be nothing left that the alters would need to protect her from.

One issue I see is that the personas are essentially lies. Shallan, of all people, can't pretend to herself that she is someone else. It'll hinder her progress as Lightweaver.

[Mulk]

I hurt pretty badly reading this.

Depression is so real.  Kaladin is so real.  When I hurt so badly I need to cry but can't, when I want so badly to be alone but know it's bad for me and longing for someone, ANYONE to call or knock on the door and drag me out of my hole but completely unable to voice it....sigh. 

My thoughts about Shallan and the Three are a muddle right now beyond thinking Shallan's not actually progressing. Adolin is the sort of friend I wish I had more of - the kind who isn't asking me to cheer up or be other than I am, but won't let me rot in despair either.

Rock saying good bye possibly permanently (at least within SA itself, I know we still have the novella ahead) was just slime icing on a crap sundae for me.

Don't misunderstand.  I loved the chapter.  It just hit so close to home I had to cry for a bit after I was done reading and I still tear up some thinking about it.  I've spent most of the pandemic being strong for those who needed me to be, trying to hoist people who've never been this down before out of their own darkness long enough for them to breathe and recover and I'm running out of strength.

[Greywatch]

18 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

This only means that she got better at the end of, or soon enough after OB, not that she is currently getting better. She fell into a "local optimum" that is now starting to show its shortcomings.

I would actually say she got better over the course of the year since OB, not that it happened in a few days at the end of OB and she's spent the last year refusing to keep going. Everything implies that it took time and work to get to where she was at the beginning of RoW. I do believe she's hit a slow point and now needs to get to the next level, but that doesn't mean that's a problem with where she is now. Healing doesn't need to be - and can't be - a straight upwards line, and the fact that she still has more to go doesn't mean she's doing it incorrectly at the moment.

[+Bliev]

19 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

I would actually say she got better over the course of the year since OB, not that it happened in a few days at the end of OB and she's spent the last year refusing to keep going. Everything implies that it took time and work to get to where she was at the beginning of RoW. I do believe she's hit a slow point and now needs to get to the next level, but that doesn't mean that's a problem with where she is now. Healing doesn't need to be - and can't be - a straight upwards line, and the fact that she still has more to go doesn't mean she's doing it incorrectly at the moment.

I agree with this. The integration among the three is progress. And she's not lying to anyone about having multiple personas, which is progress too. She seems to have maxed out and leveled off, but I think she's leaps and bounds where she was at the end of OB.

49 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

The personas are a direct result of her inability to deal with trauma. I agree that she has to deal with her past first and foremost, and not concentrate on the alters. I just think that reintegration will naturally follow because there will be nothing left that the alters would need to protect her from.

One issue I see is that the personas are essentially lies. Shallan, of all people, can't pretend to herself that she is someone else. It'll hinder her progress as Lightweaver.

Agreed re: her inability to deal with trauma. But it doesn't follow that dealing with the trauma will "heal" her DiD, nor that it's necessary to reintegrate for her to function and be well. 

I also don't agree that the personas are lies. I'd rather say that they're all truths. They're all her, so she's not pretending at all. She's just unable to be them all at the same time. What lie that IS hindering her progress, imho, is the lie that she's "fine". She's not. And that's the dangerous one. But I don't think she's "not fine" because of her personas, I think she's "not fine" because she's still dissociating from her past continually instead of facing it.

[Rainier]

27 minutes ago, Bliev said:

But it doesn't follow that dealing with the trauma will "heal" her DiD, nor that it's necessary to reintegrate for her to function and be well. 

Function and be well is a rather low bar. I would say reintegration is necessary for her to reach the fifth ideal of the Lightweavers. If she wants to quit early, retire, and live out her life as a half-baked Radiant, then yes, she can keep the alters. If she wants to reach the Fifth Ideal, and protect Pattern from becoming deadeyed, the alters need to go.

27 minutes ago, Bliev said:

I also don't agree that the personas are lies. I'd rather say that they're all truths. They're all her, so she's not pretending at all.

Well, sure, we can play this game. Is Pattern a truthspren, or a liespren? It depends on who you ask. He sure seems to be attracted to lies, after all. Without truth, there can be no lie, because all lies have truth in them.

The lie is that Veil is distinct from Shallan, that Radiant is distinct from Shallan. The parts of Veil may very well be parts of the whole person, but by cordoning them off into an entire personality, Shallan is lying to herself. She's always herself, whether she gives herself brown or blonde hair, whether she disguises her eyes, and no matter her feelings or responsibilities. There's only ever been one person there, and there will only ever be a single person. Perhaps, if she weren't a Lightweaver, she could live happily ever after without reintegrating the three (or more) personalities. That story isn't this story. Or, at least, I hope this story isn't that story. Just like I want to see Kaladin speak the fourth and fifth ideals, I want to see Shallan reach self-awareness.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Rainier

[Lemiltock]

17 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Function and be well is a rather low bar. I would say reintegration is necessary for her to reach the fifth ideal of the Lightweavers. If she wants to quit early, retire, and live out her life as a half-baked Radiant, then yes, she can keep the alters. If she wants to reach the Fifth Ideal, and protect Pattern from becoming deadeyed, the alters need to go.

Well, sure, we can play this game. Is Pattern a truthspren, or a liespren? It depends on who you ask. He sure seems to be attracted to lies, after all. Without truth, there can be no lie, because all lies have truth in them.

The lie is that Veil is distinct from Shallan, that Radiant is distinct from Shallan. The parts of Veil may very well be parts of the whole person, but by cordoning them off into an entire personality, Shallan is lying to herself. She's always herself, whether she gives herself brown or blonde hair, whether she disguises her eyes, and no matter her feelings or responsibilities. There's only ever been one person there, and there will only ever be a single person. Perhaps, if she weren't a Lightweaver, she could live happily ever after without reintegrating the three (or more) personalities. That story isn't this story. Or, at least, I hope this story isn't that story. Just like I want to see Kaladin speak the fourth and fifth ideals, I want to see Shallan reach self-awareness.

I think you are vastly over simplifying DID Shallan is not pretending to be Veil during these times, she is Veil. Just because she has magic to give an outward sign of this change does not mean she is lieing to herself.

[+Bliev]

15 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Function and be well is a rather low bar. I would say reintegration is necessary for her to reach the fifth ideal of the Lightweavers. If she wants to quit early, retire, and live out her life as a half-baked Radiant, then yes, she can keep the alters. If she wants to reach the Fifth Ideal, and protect Pattern from becoming deadeyed, the alters need to go.

Well, sure, we can play this game. Is Pattern a truthspren, or a liespren? It depends on who you ask. He sure seems to be attracted to lies, after all. Without truth, there can be no lie, because all lies have truth in them.

The lie is that Veil is distinct from Shallan, that Radiant is distinct from Shallan. The parts of Veil may very well be parts of the whole person, but by cordoning them off into an entire personality, Shallan is lying to herself. She's always herself, whether she gives herself brown or blonde hair, whether she disguises her eyes, and no matter her feelings or responsibilities. There's only ever been one person there, and there will only ever be a single person. Perhaps, if she weren't a Lightweaver, she could live happily ever after without reintegrating the three (or more) personalities. That story isn't this story. Or, at least, I hope this story isn't that story. Just like I want to see Kaladin speak the fourth and fifth ideals, I want to see Shallan reach self-awareness.

Oooh, I think there are multiple things here to address. First, do we think that someone is "half baked" as a Radiant if they don't reach level 5? Very few ever do, right? I know for story's sake, we want to see that progression, but are they failures if they don't? 

Second, how would living at Level 3 or 4 forever and then dying make Pattern deadeyed? Wouldn't she have to betray him to do that? 

Third, yes, it is a game, you're right--one filtered through our own perceptions of Shallan's situation for sure. I happen to not think that her personalities are lies. I think it is a lie if she believes she is not all of them, or they are not her. That's indeed an issue she must address and stop lying about to herself. But that's one reason I see "the three" as progress--admitting they exist and having them all interact as she does is a step toward that self-actualization--but I don't *necessarily* believe that full reintegration is necessary for her to progress or be well.  I don't think that having dissociative identity disorder prevents her progression ipso facto. Just makes it harder. Just like Kal having depression doesn't prevent him progressing in his order, just makes it harder. And I don't think he'll have to be "healed" to reach level 5 either. 

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

This only means that she got better at the end of, or soon enough after OB, not that she is currently getting better. She fell into a "local optimum" that is now starting to show its shortcomings.

Everything is a process.  I think cautious optimism is a more realistic prognosis.