RoW Chapter 12 Discussion

[+Bliev]

55 minutes ago, Calcium said:

Anyone else thinking that Adolin’s efforts to help Kal and Shallan overcome/cope with mental illness will be mirrored with his (hopeful) revival of Maya?

Yes! It’s almost an allegory right? The dead eyes are dead because of a severing of a cognitive/spiritual connection, not because of a physical wound. There is likely something beneath the surface that has to be identified, reckoned with, and fixed to bring a deadeye “back”, even if now they are not able to bond, they are still “alive” again. 

Sounds familiar.

 

How did Adolin tell Kaladin and the others about Maya’s name? He heard it told to him. So they must know that she spoke?
 

 

[+robardin]

 

Life Before Death. ... 

I will remember those who have been forgotten.

I will listen to those who have been ignored.

What if the way to revive a dead sprenblade, an artifact of a Radiant reaching the Third Ideal, is to embody all three Ideals of the spren's order... With respect to the shorted-out spren?

[+Bliev]

6 minutes ago, robardin said:

 

Life Before Death. ... 

I will remember those who have been forgotten.

I will listen to those who have been ignored.

What if the way to revive a dead sprenblade, an artifact of a Radiant reaching the Third Ideal, is to embody all three Ideals of the spren's order... With respect to the shorted-out spren?

I like this...and combined with 

Spoiler

the Syl Interlude

maybe a little dab of Bondsmith connection??

[Karger]

4 hours ago, Michael Portz said:

Adolin stems from a culture, where shardblades are coveted and venerated  objects. Up to a very short time in the past they where mysterious, too. People only knew that they where immensely powerful. Quite some of them where named by their owners.

My point is: an Alethi like Adolin, educated for warfare, had of course a very personal relationship to his shardblade

Exactly.  Adolin even talks to his blade.  The fact that it occasionally does weird things he will probably take in stride.

[agrabes]

16 hours ago, Bliev said:

I love this analogy to the prodigal son. nicely done.

My point was mostly that it was the Shallan persona that didn't tell Adolin, and it was Radiant who actually told Kaladin. So it stands to reason that Adolin was also told by Veil or Radiant (probably the more responsible Radiant) that things ain't that great in Shallan-land.

Ah - this makes a ton of sense, thanks!  Could be that the Shallan persona is still in denial, but Radiant may have had a similar talk to Adolin on the DL.  I could definitely see something like that being the case.

I generally use Shallan (without quotes) to refer to the whole person, and "Shallan" to refer to the persona, but that definitely is not like a universal fandom naming convention so that's what tripped me up.

[Potus]

I personally don't want Adolin to be an Edgedancer. Even though we have Lift as our odd one, we already know there are other Edgedancers that were in the first few chapters. I would much rather he be our focus of a new order like Stonewards. Because if we don't get that we have to wait for Taln's book to get that pov, and even then he won't have a spren. 

[Agent34]

2 minutes ago, Potus said:

I personally don't want Adolin to be an Edgedancer. Even though we have Lift as our odd one, we already know there are other Edgedancers that were in the first few chapters. I would much rather he be our focus of a new order like Stonewards. Because if we don't get that we have to wait for Taln's book to get that pov, and even then he won't have a spren. 

Why can't Taln have a spren? There's nothing (in theory) stopping him from bonding one.

[+robardin]

2 minutes ago, Potus said:

I personally don't want Adolin to be an Edgedancer. Even though we have Lift as our odd one, we already know there are other Edgedancers that were in the first few chapters. I would much rather he be our focus of a new order like Stonewards. Because if we don't get that we have to wait for Taln's book to get that pov, and even then he won't have a spren. 

Taln's flashbacks may serve to give history and depth to the Story of the Stonewards, it doesn't mean he'd be the Stoneward Radiant of focus in the story.

For all we know, since that book will be in the "back five" that takes places 15+ years after the first five (IIRC), that'll end up being Kaladin's little brother Oroden or someone like that.

[Friendshipspren]

6 hours ago, The Traveller said:

How can a single chapter make me both cry so much and then laugh so much !! 
I loved when he said “ I am not giving up Maya” !! Maya, did you hear it? 
Also loved how much Kal has changed his mind about Adolin. From he is such a brat to how has no spren taken you up yet? 
loved it!

Yeah. There was so much in this chapter I overlooked how adorable these actions were. Oh adolin. ❤️

[+Czernobog]

Reading Radiant admitting that other proto-personas are trying to form and emerge, I had a fun (though pretty unlikely, I think) ride in a thought train careening off the rails.

While reading that bit, for some reason the phrase "shadows of self" sprang to mind, not due to events in the book bearing that phrase as a title, but merely as the phrase itself. Knowing that Brandon likes to throw curveballs in upending expectations...

Could Veil and Radiant be considered shadows of Shallan? If so, might there be seven more personas forming, and struggling to emerge, leaving Shallan with nine shadows?

As I said, probably not, but fun to ponder.

[Michael Portz]

4 hours ago, The Traveller said:

I find very hard to reconcile your image of adolin with mine. Hardheaded is he? Not much. He is Dalinar’s son so he is that, a little but I think he is quite flexible too. 
I think he has always proven to be quite in sync with “modern times”. 
I also find it hard to believe that he refuses to shed his bond with Maya just because he treats his blade as a tool. If it just a tool to him, then why not shed it, and get a better improved one. An alive spren alongwith radiant powers. 
No, I think there is some sort of connection that he shares with Maya which he does not want to let go. A connection which I think had only strengthened, once he learned that she is a spren, a dead one. 

Adolin being (one of) the kindest person we have met so far on Roshar does not mean, he is not hardheaded. He stood WITH Dalinar when he was in a weak position (WoK), he stood AGAINST Dalinar when he was in his most powerful position (in refusing to become King). Bets are taken, that he would have done so even if it hadn't been his father. He believes in fashion, when hardly anybody around him does so. 

Now him refusing to do the strategically sound and give away his sword and become Radiant is another (perhaps the best) example.

I never meant that he used his sword as tool, but that he treated it as something with a personality even before he could have know that each shardblades actually IS a person, and that this behavior stems from his interpretation of his Alethian heritage. 

4 hours ago, Agent34 said:

I'd find that quite hard to believe. Not only did Adolin specifically refuse to name his Shardblade like others do out of respect for it, Dalinar's Shardwielding skills were among the best on Roshar and yet he was able to attain Radiancy and bond the Stormfather.

Anyway, both of you of course might just be right :-) It is hard to discuss something containing so unsorted views as my initial posting :-D

[+Oltux72]

So what caused the agony? How strictly in chronological order are the chapters? Must we conclude that something happened that caused Leshwi agony and changed the war, but nobody in Urithiru noticed anything?

[Karger]

9 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

So what caused the agony? How strictly in chronological order are the chapters?

We know that the battle between Leshwi and Kaladin happened and that Leshwi came more or less direct from there.

[+Bliev]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

We know that the battle between Leshwi and Kaladin happened and that Leshwi came more or less direct from there.

My guess is that the pub scene is close to the same time as Venli in her room with the other Singers, before Leshwi descends the steps.

I think the next chapter will link us up with Leshwi's realization.

I do think it's not without reason that Leshwi's reaction was Odium-related, and that the Radiants wouldn't know what it was right away, or that it was anything. They're a lot more dispersed and separate than the centralized Odium forces with the Fused connected to Odium the way they are. 

[Aon Tia]

24 minutes ago, Michael Portz said:

He stood WITH Dalinar when he was in a weak position (WoK), he stood AGAINST Dalinar when he was in his most powerful position (in refusing to become King). Bets are taken, that he would have done so even if it hadn't been his father. He believes in fashion, when hardly anybody around him does so. 

Now him refusing to do the strategically sound and give away his sword and become Radiant is another (perhaps the best) example.

He stood up to Dalinar yes but once he was proven wrong, when it was discovered that The visions were real, he accepted his mistake and did not begrudge it. When he felt that Sadeas was bad news he still let Dalinar trust him and followed his father’s instructions, when he was proven right, all he did was say once that I told you so to Dalinar. 
I don’t know, I just don’t see him as hard headed.
I think it is too strong a word to describe what he is. 
 

[Kingsdaughter613]

Personally, I find it interesting how many people here are unfamiliar with Adolin’s character archetype. He’s a Corinthian, a character rarely seen these days outside period stories and Georgian/Regency Romances. He’d fit in quite nicely in those genres. It’s nice to see that type of character elsewhere.

[dgreene196]

On 9/22/2020 at 0:07 PM, Diomedes said:

 That comment by Veil that Kal is into smart girls was really awkward considering she was swooning over him last book.  

Veil does not swoon.

[+Bliev]

2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Personally, I find it interesting how many people here are unfamiliar with Adolin’s character archetype. He’s a Corinthian, a character rarely seen these days outside period stories and Georgian/Regency Romances. He’d fit in quite nicely in those genres. It’s nice to see that type of character elsewhere.

You know, I hadn't connected him to Heyer in that way, which is surprising given my penchant for Regency romance novels (and my love of JAFF). I do wonder if he's quite the perfect archetype since he's not avoiding his "romantic" responsibility per se (which is how I often see that character--the reluctant lover who is dashing and chivalrous to all), but his likability, wealth, attractiveness, loyalty, and privilege is definitely Corinthian in nature. I suppose we could also connect him to the aristocracy in that Regency way, and talk about his roguish avoidance of responsibility in his declining the King role...

Yes, five stars. I like.

[Eluvianii]

Sorry, haven't read the thread. I need to get this out while it's fresh.

Storms!!!! This was the best chapter so far!! One of my favorite chapters in the series already.

I've been waiting since Shallan got to the plains for a chapter with the trio going out drinking. And now it's here! And it's so bittersweet.

"You don’t have to smile. You don’t have to talk. But if you’re going to be miserable, you might as well do it with friends." Adolin just shot up a few places in my list of favorite characters just with that line. He's like the most stable person in the group. He might have thought that Kaladin just sulks because he wants to and not bother with him. He might have thought Shallan is just playing around, pretending to be other people. Instead he cares for them, he knows they're suffering, he wants to help them and is afraid he might not be able to. I'm not sure a lot of people would go that far.

Shallan and Kaladin don't exactly disappoint either. They can barely get through their day to day with their own problems, and still find the time to worry about others. If the world has to be trusted to someone, they are definitely the right group.

And it's not like all of it was sad. Seeing them joking, and simply chatting, teasing each other. That's one dream scene come true for me. So check. Now I only have to see them teasing Jasnah (And maybe that 'Well excuuuuuse me brightness' that Brandon's kids wanted?)

And the hints, so many hints. Will we get to see the reactions at Dalinar's actions? We did get to see a glimpse of Adolin's. The line between lighteyed and darkeyed is blurring thanks to Jasnah. Good. We're getting new named characters, will they be important? And of course, Rock. We will miss you. Can't wait for that novella.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Eluvianii

[Smye]

16 hours ago, paperstones said:

As sad as this chapter was, this is the saddest part. I can’t even go back and reread it knowing this is Rocks last moment for awhile. Hopefully. I really hoped he would’ve stayed around for the long haul. I understand Bridge Four evolving and changing but for him to leave, while Kal is at his lowest makes me hurt. He is doing the right thing, what he needs to do, but I can’t imagine what Kal is thinking knowing he may never see him again. 

Agreed, it hurt something FIERCE! That said, I strongly suspect that this is the first step towards Kal understanding (and thus eventually swearing) his 4th Ideal. This is the cleanest, most clearly-defined example so far of Kal knowingly allowing someone else to risk themselves, stepping back and acknowledging the fundamental agency of someone he's desperate to protect to make their own decisions and live with them. It seems likely that this is going to be a linchpin moment for Kal to reflect on and make peace with as he generalizes his Ideal more broadly.

[Potus]

6 hours ago, Agent34 said:

Why can't Taln have a spren? There's nothing (in theory) stopping him from bonding one.

Sorry, what I meant was that he most likely won't have a spren. I could be wrong but as of Oathbringer, Nale said he was the only one of the heralds that bonded a spren. Or it was something about reaching the highest level in his order (which would make me slightly wrong). I just hope to have a pov of a radiant from each order so we can see how they interact with their sprens. 

[Doneil]

I think Hoid should set up in Urithiru as a psychiatrist. Its obviously needed and i think he is the only one qualified 

[LuckyJim]

33 minutes ago, Potus said:

Sorry, what I meant was that he most likely won't have a spren. I could be wrong but as of Oathbringer, Nale said he was the only one of the heralds that bonded a spren. Or it was something about reaching the highest level in his order (which would make me slightly wrong). I just hope to have a pov of a radiant from each order so we can see how they interact with their sprens. 

Nale is currently the only herald to have joined his own order, and he's the only Skybreaker currently who has reached the fifth ideal (though part of this is due to his flawed teachings). Neither one of these suggests that Taln will be unable to bond a spren of his own and become a Stoneward as well, even though he's not currently.

[radiantAlThor]

As someone who has been a similar position to Adolin before, I feel for him so much. It's really not easy being the support system for someone going through so much pain. Reading this chapter you can tell how badly he wants to help Shallan and Kaladin, wants to see them be happy. The feeling of helplessness is ever present and wanting to do something, anything to help can end up hurting them. The way he's just there for them, just to listen and be present may seem like a simple thing, but has such a big impact, as you can tell from just this chapter alone. If those aren't the ideals of edgedancers, I don't know what are. I really want to see how this story unfolds. I don't think I've ever been so invested so much in a character before.

If something happens to him, we riot.

[Cosmical Existence]

21 minutes ago, radiantAlThor said:

If something happens to him [Adolin], we riot.

I will stand with you if it comes to that.

I've always liked Adolin. I think it is admirable that he tries to put his own spin on things, with his fashion choices, with how he acts towards others, or how he is so attached to his blade. I like how he is loyal, but not blindly loyal. And I love how this chapter gave us so many reasons to love him. His interactions with Syl and Kaladin, how he is respectful towards The Three, and how he is just trying to help people in his own way. I'm hoping Brandon continues to treat Adolin right. 

1 hour ago, Doneil said:

I think Hoid should set up in Urithiru as a psychiatrist. Its obviously needed and i think he is the only one qualified. 

I agree completely. Though I'm pretty sure there will be some people who come out of sessions with him even more mental than they were going in. Just the by-product of the fact that not everyone appreciates the way Hoid deals with problems and lessons (see pretty much everyone's interactions with him as Wit). 

His couple scenes with Shallan are some of my favourites, I find it interesting how fascinated with her he is. I wonder what he would think of the issues she's been having with her personalities (the ones that Radiant was hinting at in this chapter).