RoW Chapter 12 Discussion

[Cosmical Existence]

30 minutes ago, Bliev said:

Right now Adolin is the only thing holding Shallan AND Kaladin together, and while I think the loss of Adolin could be a useful character progression for Kal, it would *not* be that way for Shallan. 

If that happens we might see the first on-screen Radiant to break her oaths and kill her spren in the process as she further devolves into lies and escapism. 

 

Whoa whoa whoa. That is a rabbit hole I was choosing NOT to follow. 

But yikes, if that's going to be the case it would be chaos (not that the Stormlight books aren't chaos already), and I don't know if Brandon would be able to pull it off. Though it would be interesting to see that path, and it would be way to explore some Radiant stuff not seen before, I don't think I'm ready to see Pattern die. Or Adolin die. Or Shallan not heal from the trauma of her past. I want to see her come to grips with the truth of what her family was, and what she did. I want her to find herself, not just as ways to survive, but as a way to thrive. I need her to overcome the lies. If Brandon can do that through her breaking her oaths, I will accept that. But if he uses her just to be a experiment in Radiant's breaking their oaths, without using that to help her heal... that is a fate that Shallan does not deserve. 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Cosmical Existence

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Lightspine said:

And she's tall too, that must mean she's Terris

Rosharans are taller then average due to low gravity.  People from other worlds will be shorter.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Karger

[NameIess]

Well, after reading this chapter... I will admit that I had tears in my eyes. I really enjoyed the dialogue between Shallan, Kaladin, and Adolin, and I'm glad to see that Kaladin is mature enough to realize that Dalinar is right. I've seen people thinking that Adolin is going to die, but I don't think he needs to. Kaladin's current support system is made out of Bridge 4, Dalinar, Adolin and, to a lesser extent, Shallan. Shallan and Adolin are going to go be ambassadors to the Honorspren, Bridge 4 is probably going to be on constant duty thanks to whatever changes in the war, Dalinar is also going to be extremely busy with that, and Rock, the only member of Bridge 4 who wouldn't take part in the fighting, is leaving to go to the horneater peaks. That leaves Kaladin with almost no one to help him get through his depression.

[Singer]

1 hour ago, Michael Portz said:

*headscratch* ... well ... I mean ... Adolin was THERE quite some of the time of the Blackthorn and had to live through it. He must have KNOWN at least some of the dark aspects of his dearly loved and venerated father.

Yeah, certainly he was aware of the Blackthorn's, shall we say aggressive tendencies? But that is kind of the Alethi ideal in some ways so I assume many aspects of that Adolin will find less problematic than we do. But Evi? I think Adolin has some feels about his mother's death. Though maybe he is also feeling sympathetic because he saw what a wreck Dalinar was after Evi died. There are lots of ways to respond to that kind of revelation, total rage makes sense. But so does shared mourning. I'm just curious about where Adolin is at regarding this. Renarin too.

[+Oltux72]

Just now, Singer said:

Though maybe he is also feeling sympathetic because he saw what a wreck Dalinar was after Evi died. There are lots of ways to respond to that kind of revelation, total rage makes sense. But so does shared mourning. I'm just curious about where Adolin is at regarding this. Renarin too.

At the risk of appearing callous, Evi was a traitor. Dalinar could have had her executed for what she did. And she died due to an accident and had intentionally endangered herself.

[Greywatch]

17 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

At the risk of appearing callous, Evi was a traitor. Dalinar could have had her executed for what she did. And she died due to an accident and had intentionally endangered herself.

I would say that's more callous than anyone in the books, for sure. It's not a statement we've even seen in the books.

[Black_Shoshan]

Adolin is such an extrovert, he needs people around him to thrive.

 

Quote

Veil rolled her eyes, but then she shook her head, and her hair blended to blonde and she sat up straighter. “Do get a full report from Dalinar later, Kaladin. There are oddities about the event that trouble me.”

If Adolin and Shallan will be off to Shadesmar soon, they might not have a lot of time to investigate Ialai's murder. I wonder if what Radiant says here means Kaladin might also be involved in the investigation? It will give him something to do, but I'm not sure how good a detective Kaladin is, and he might be stepping into minefields he has no idea exist (the ghostbloods and so on).

[agrabes]

First of all, loved the chapter.  I'd been waiting for a chapter to see how Kaladin, Shallan, and Adolin all interacted together.  I wasn't sure how it would be.  It seemed like there was a chance of some tension between Adolin and Kaladin, but reading this chapter, I'm glad there wasn't.  This is a pure Sanderson way of handling the potential conflict and he made it feel right.  This chapter definitely raised my opinion of Adolin quite a bit.  Sanderson did a great job of showing that Adolin does understand what's going on and is very concerned about it, but is still trying to put on a good face for Shallan's sake.

1 hour ago, Cosmical Existence said:

I loved this chapter. I think this one and the chapter with Venli are my favourites so far. The interactions between characters, the implications and hints of things to come... I didn't think it was possible but I'm even more excited about Dawnshard than I was before this chapter. Rock has always been one of my favourite characters, and now I have a feeling I'm going to fall in love with his family and their story. And Hoid! I can't wait to see more of him, and Rock seems to know more about him than we do. I wonder what we are going to find out about him from Dawnshard. What does Rock mean by calling him a god? Aldo I think Kaladin should go to the Peaks. 

I liked the interaction between Pattern and Veil, poor Shallan going to have to explain where babies come from... it's going to be close to the level of "No mating!" for Shallan. 

I like it that Radiant is acknowledging that The Three are not doing as good as Veil or Shallan would like everyone to believe. And the fact that she thinks Kal helps is interesting. Though I don't think that Brandon is trying to hint at Shallan and Kaladin are going to be a thing after Adolin dies. Or at least I hope not. I liked their interactions in the previous books, but more as friends rather than potential love interests. 

And Syl is amazing. I love her. She is so smart, and funny, and beautiful, and just... amazing. 

I find it really interesting too that Shallan would not tell Adolin about Formless, but does immediately tell Kaladin about it.  It's interesting to me that she chooses certain things to tell Adolin and no one else, while other things she keeps from him.  It was also really interesting to see Radiant take some initiative.  My opinion - Radiant is the part of Shallan that knows sometimes she needs someone to tell it like it is.  If she comes to Adolin with this type of problem, he's the type to be super supportive and nice, but not offer advice or opinion.  But Kaladin is the type to say, "Oh, that is hurting you?  Well don't do that!"  That kind of thing can be helpful for people sometimes - to have someone external to you validate your belief that something is off.  Just the ability to openly talk with someone and say "Something is wrong!" can be really helpful.  With Adolin, I think they both feel pressure to say to each other that things are OK, because they both desperately want them to be.  Only problem is, Kaladin's still too jealous of her ability to put her pain aside temporarily to understand what's really wrong.  So he won't say what she needs him to say.

I think this may be a set up for future plot.  I'm not sure it will necessarily be Adolin's death, or that it would be a Kaladin/Shallan romance.  I think with all these hints of how Kaladin still envies what Shallan does despite Adolin and Shallan/Radiant herself telling Kaladin that it is really bad for her, it is setting up a moment where Kaladin finally realizes that what Shallan does is not healthy and is making her worse.  I think he will realize that at that moment in time, as bad as things are for Kaladin himself, Shallan is in a much worse situation.  He will snap out of his depression and they will have a frank conversation and provide kind of a pressure relief valve for each other.  Kaladin directly saying to her "You've got a messed up situation.  It's messed up, but you are strong enough to fix it." Shallan directly saying "Hey you idiot, take it from me that dodging your problems doesn't work.  It made me develop a mental disorder.  Just forgive yourself already!"  I think this happens as part of a friendship, where they finally realize that it's ok to be emotionally close to each other as platonic friends.  For whatever reason, Shallan and Kaladin seem to be able to open up to each other in ways they can't open up to other people and I think acknowledging that and allowing themselves to do it will be good for them.  I'm not saying that in a shipping way, just that I think the books are showing us that Shallan and Kaladin have a certain special connection that is distinct from the romantic connection that Shallan and Adolin have.

Edited September 22, 2020 by agrabes

[Subvisual Haze]

Brandon continues to absolutely nail the weird contradictions of depression.  You want someone to help you, but you also want to hide from the world.  You push people away because your brain is in such a self-loathing state that you imagine your mere presence will make others miserable.

[hypatia]

@Rainier

What about Lirin?

A good talk between father and son is overdue imo, as I see this broken bond as part of Kaladin's breakdown.

And this would nicely lead to Kaladin return to be a surgeon.

[+Bliev]

46 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I find it really interesting too that Shallan would not tell Adolin about Formless, but does immediately tell Kaladin about it.  It's interesting to me that she chooses certain things to tell Adolin and no one else, while other things she keeps from him.  

 

Technically Shallan didn't tel Kaladin about formless, right? But it's nice to see that the uncertainty that Shallan showed with Adolin in her last chapter was "righted" by Veil and Radiant who are able to tell Adolin things that Shallan is scared to. But it seems they will *all* have to agree to share the part of their past that Veil pushed Shallan on when they were on their mission--that it won't work unless Shallan joins in to own their past. 

Good to see that, in some ways, her alters (and Pattern!!) are trying to get her the help that she can't ask for herself, demonstrating that she desperately wants to deal with her trauma and her past, at some level, even if Shallan the personality disputes that. I find that a hopeful sign--they are aware of the risk. They see the issue. And everyone is on the same page that they have to figure it out, much like with Kal. 

This collective quest toward wellness is a beautiful twist on the lone hero's journey wherein the hero tackles his(or her, but let's be real it's usually his lol) challenges alone in the search of growth or greatness. The connections and relationships among these characters feel so real to me, and so rich. I love it.

[agrabes]

6 minutes ago, Bliev said:

Technically Shallan didn't tel Kaladin about formless, right? But it's nice to see that the uncertainty that Shallan showed with Adolin in her last chapter was "righted" by Veil and Radiant who are able to tell Adolin things that Shallan is scared to. But it seems they will *all* have to agree to share the part of their past that Veil pushed Shallan on when they were on their mission--that it won't work unless Shallan joins in to own their past. 

Good to see that, in some ways, her alters (and Pattern!!) are trying to get her the help that she can't ask for herself, demonstrating that she desperately wants to deal with her trauma and her past, at some level, even if Shallan the personality disputes that. I find that a hopeful sign--they are aware of the risk. They see the issue. And everyone is on the same page that they have to figure it out, much like with Kal. 

This collective quest toward wellness is a beautiful twist on the lone hero's journey wherein the hero tackles his(or her, but let's be real it's usually his lol) challenges alone in the search of growth or greatness. The connections and relationships among these characters feel so real to me, and so rich. I love it.

She doesn't tell him about Formless specifically.  But she shares her fears that other half-formed personalities are lurking under the surface and waiting to pounce in a moment of weakness, which seems to be something she is hiding from Adolin.  At least, that's how I read it in Chapter 9.  I do think it's hopeful - that some portions of herself are ready and able to start dealing with this.  I think you're right that she's got to get all of "herself" in agreement to take the next step toward being healthy.  I honestly think part of that is to finally face up to her last Truth, which she is desperately trying to forget or isolate from her day to day awareness.

[Solant]

As someone who can strongly relate, a person who is both an introvert and prone to bouts of MDD needs a caring extrovert BFF like Adolin to coax them out of their shell when they should not be alone. I'm 100 percent here for the Kaladin/ Adolin/ Veil bromance. 

[jamskinner]

5 hours ago, robardin said:

Rock was able to draw Stormlight as a squire in Oathbringer, I assume he hasn't "pulled back" from that; and I think it's implied he could bond a spren if he wanted to, but that whatever allowed him to draw a Shardbow (even with Stormlight) is the clue.

And yes, it's probably related to his ability to see spren as a alaii’iku, whatever exactly that is; and I'm almost certain whatever role it is that his wife implied he should have become or assumed after his brothers died at the hands of Torol Sadeas, is now thrust upon him after raising a weapon in combat.

Since he recognizes Wit as the same "god" he saw emerge from the Shardpool all those years ago, and in fact live clustered around Cultivation's Perpendicularity which the last we saw, was taken over on the Shadesmar by the Fused... Maybe he's got a mission there? But why be so certain he'd never see Kaladin again (at least, not in the Physical world)?

Maybe he’s moving to the cognitive realm. 

[+robardin]

Just now, jamskinner said:

Maybe he’s moving to the cognitive realm. 

Yes that is the slim chance I see as "wiggle room" in everything Rock has said about what is in store for him.

The Horneaters, living as they do right on top of a Perpendicularity, may be exiling him to the CR somehow for what he's done.

[Kuram]

5 hours ago, Agent34 said:

He's suffered, "not hurt enough" is, in my opinion, ridiculous

It's not even, strictly speaking, necessary.  The Lopen is perfectly fine.

[Gilphon]

So I think the question of whether or not Adolin is 'broken' enough to become a Radiant is officially no longer relevant; Kaladin seems pretty convinced that Adolin could become a Radiant if he wanted to, and that his unwillingness to give up Maya is the main reason he isn't one yet. 

[+Bliev]

10 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

So I think the question of whether or not Adolin is 'broken' enough to become a Radiant is officially no longer relevant; Kaladin seems pretty convinced that Adolin could become a Radiant if he wanted to, and that his unwillingness to give up Maya is the main reason he isn't one yet. 

Yep. Agreed.

And I have to say I LOVE Adolin's answer to Kaladin's exhortation. It's amazing. 

Also, I think it's hard sometimes, given how this series began, to remember that all a Radiant *requires* is a willing spren. And that Radiants are not necessarily meant to be rare superheroes that save the world, but rather grow in number and strength to fight a war. I think Adolin's devotion to Maya is really sweet, and very Adolin. And I do find it a bit interesting that Kal so easily dismisses Maya as if she is unimportant, even after spending all that time around her in Shadesmar. Yes, she's "dead" but the spren screamed all the time, and even fought for Adolin! Unless he missed that part? Seems weird that Kaladin, of all people, would be so callous and dismissive of Adolin's connection with her.

[+robardin]

2 minutes ago, Bliev said:

Yep. Agreed.

And I have to say I LOVE Adolin's answer to Kaladin's exhortation. It's amazing. 

Also, I think it's hard sometimes, given how this series began, to remember that all a Radiant *requires* is a willing spren. And that Radiants are not necessarily meant to be rare superheroes that save the world, but rather grow in number and strength to fight a war. I think Adolin's devotion to Maya is really sweet, and very Adolin. And I do find it a bit interesting that Kal so easily dismisses Maya as if she is unimportant, even after spending all that time around her in Shadesmar. Yes, she's "dead" but the spren screamed all the time, and even fought for Adolin! Unless he missed that part? Seems weird that Kaladin, of all people, would be so callous and dismissive of Adolin's connection with her.

I would love to hear Syl's take on what has or is happening with Maya...

For example, is Adolin still able to hear her and/or summon her in fewer than ten heartbeats, or was that an artifact of "Three Realms being very close" after Dalinar's UNITY moment while swearing the Third Ideal of the Bondsmiths in Odium's divine FACE?

And you'd think sentient spren would have had some kind of jaw-drop moment to see a "deadeye" act with volition in Shadesmar the way she did to defend Adolin from the Fused! (Or at least, to avenge him... He'd already gotten a pretty nasty gut wound by then...)

[Jon]

2 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Brandon continues to absolutely nail the weird contradictions of depression.  You want someone to help you, but you also want to hide from the world.  You push people away because your brain is in such a self-loathing state that you imagine your mere presence will make others miserable.

Ya, I've dealt with some episodes of depression, and the descriptions in this chapter were pretty spot on. 

[Rainier]

2 hours ago, hypatia said:

What about Lirin?

A good talk between father and son is overdue imo, as I see this broken bond as part of Kaladin's breakdown.

And this would nicely lead to Kaladin return to be a surgeon.

It has to come eventually, but I'm not surprised it hasn't happened yet. This chapter was literally the very first moments after they (Fourth Bridge) gets back to Urithiru. I expect to see this interaction in the preview chapters prior to the book being released, since it can't be held out for that much longer, right?

His break with his father runs deep, and it's not going to be fixed in a single conversation. Remember, Lirin lost both his sons at once. One was taken from him, and the other left. One was killed, the other never returned. Now, finally, the prodigal son has returned. Kaladin returns to Hearthstone a hero to the people, but a broken man. Much like the prodigal son, I expect Lirin to accept him with open arms, especially as a surgeon. After all, you do not scorn the prodigal (wasteful and extravagant) son, you celebrate him. He was lost, and now he needs to come home and be found.

1 hour ago, Bliev said:

Technically Shallan didn't tel Kaladin about formless, right?

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

She doesn't tell him about Formless specifically.  But she shares her fears that other half-formed personalities are lurking under the surface and waiting to pounce in a moment of weakness, which seems to be something she is hiding from Adolin.  At least, that's how I read it in Chapter 9. 

Technically, no, she doesn't reveal that she's actively suppressing a broken fragment of her personality, but here's the interaction in its entirety.

Quote

“I…” Kaladin said. “We’ll see. You share Veil’s opinion that Shallan is fine? She merely needs a rest?”

“She is well enough,” Radiant said. “We’ve found a balance. A year now, without any new personas forming. Except…”

Kaladin raised an eyebrow.

“There are some, half-formed,” Radiant said, turning away. “They wait, to see if the Three really can work. Or if it could crumble, letting them out. They aren’t real. Not as real as I am. And yet. And yet…” She met Kaladin’s eyes. “Shallan wouldn’t wish me to share that much. But as her friend, you should know.”

“I’m not sure if I can help,” Kaladin said. “I can barely keep a handle on my own problems these days.”

“You being here helps,” Radiant said.

That last line reminded me of the, "without you I fade," that she gave Adolin at the end of OB. The fact that she admits to half-formed personas are already trying to tear down the dominant personas, then drops TWO and-yets. Downward spiral here we come.

[+Bliev]

22 minutes ago, Rainier said:

His break with his father runs deep, and it's not going to be fixed in a single conversation. Remember, Lirin lost both his sons at once. One was taken from him, and the other left. One was killed, the other never returned. Now, finally, the prodigal son has returned. Kaladin returns to Hearthstone a hero to the people, but a broken man. Much like the prodigal son, I expect Lirin to accept him with open arms, especially as a surgeon. After all, you do not scorn the prodigal (wasteful and extravagant) son, you celebrate him. He was lost, and now he needs to come home and be found.

I love this analogy to the prodigal son. nicely done.

22 minutes ago, Rainier said:

2 hours ago, Bliev said:

Technically Shallan didn't tel Kaladin about formless, right?

2 hours ago, agrabes said:

My point was mostly that it was the Shallan persona that didn't tell Adolin, and it was Radiant who actually told Kaladin. So it stands to reason that Adolin was also told by Veil or Radiant (probably the more responsible Radiant) that things ain't that great in Shallan-land.

[Cheat Commando]

4 hours ago, Bliev said:

So agreed. I do agree with a poster above that I think it seems to be setting Adolin up to die/sacrifice himself at some point this book--and Kal having to let him do so willingly (he has to accept that people get to choose to be protected or not)--I had thought it might be Lirin to play that role for him, but it seems more likely to be Adolin at this point?

Nononononononono! If this comes to pass, I will probably cry for hours. If Adolin dies in this way (or any way really), I will be very, very sad.

But even as I read your comment, I got chills up and down my spine... Which for me generally means I see the connection now that you pointed it out.

[+Bliev]

7 minutes ago, Cheat Commando said:

Nononononononono! If this comes to pass, I will probably cry for hours. If Adolin dies in this way (or any way really), I will be very, very sad.

But even as I read your comment, I got chills up and down my spine... Which for me generally means I see the connection now that you pointed it out.

I KNOW I AM SO SORRY TO PUT IT INTO THE UNIVERSE. I am trying to pre-cope with it which is my way. I will say all the bad things so I can maybe be more prepared when it happens. 

I am a super hype Adolin fangirl, so it hurts me just as much I promise. 

(I would love to be wrong and considering my track record probably will be, haha.)

ETA: we could always get a win-win where Adolin chooses to go, Kal has to accept it (thus saying his 4th oath) and Adolin re-awakens Maya in the process, which saves him, which would be great, right? 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Bliev

[+Oltux72]

59 minutes ago, Rainier said:

It has to come eventually, but I'm not surprised it hasn't happened yet. This chapter was literally the very first moments after they (Fourth Bridge) gets back to Urithiru. I expect to see this interaction in the preview chapters prior to the book being released, since it can't be held out for that much longer, right?

What? This is still the first day. Fourth Bridge is over a thousand kilometers away picking up Herdazians.