RoW Chapter 12 Discussion

[Subvisual Haze]

7 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Don't know if this is in reference to me but just in case to clarify:

I am not calling into question the quality of the guidelines themselves nor the research done. I was only stating that it was being misrepresented due to the portions quoted and how it was referenced. Hopefully that helps. 

Yeah, but I mean the CYA liability statement you quoted can be found with minor rephrasing in probably every clinical guideline that has ever existed. You have to put that sort of thing in to shield yourself from lawsuits as well as individual doctors who get very touchy if they perceive guidelines as restricting their autonomy. 

You can generally depend on clinical guidelines as an excellent starting point, realizing that individual patient cases will of course have special scenarios.  I think the section that resonated most with me was the introduction to the treatment section

Quote

Although the DID patient has the subjective experience of having separate identities, it is important for clinicians to keep in mind that the patient is not a collection of separate people sharing the same body. The DID patient should be seen as a whole adult person, with the identities sharing responsibility for daily life. Clinicians working with DID patients generally must hold the whole person (i.e., system of alternate identities) responsible for the behavior of any or all of the constituent identities, even in the presence of amnesia or the sense of lack of control or agency over behavior (see Radden, 1996). Treatment should move the patient toward better integrated functioning whenever possible. In the service of gradual integration, the therapist may, at times, acknowledge that the patient experiences the alternate identities as if they were separate. Nevertheless, a fundamental tenet of the psychotherapy of patients with DID is to bring about an increased degree of communication and coordination among the identities.

I think this is the trap that Shallan is currently falling into.  The more she imagines Veil a separate person outside of her control or responsibility, the more at risk she is of losing control and destroying aspects of her life and personal relationships.  She doesn't necessarily need to fully integrate her alters, but she at the very least needs to avoid using them to escape personal responsibility.

I'd be especially concerned about Veil's love of heavy drinking and flirting with people in the bar besides Adolin moving forward. 

[+Bliev]

43 minutes ago, go_go_gragdet said:

I plan to do a re-read of the Shadesmar section of OB to gather evidence of Kaladin noticing (or not noticing) Maya physically defending Adolin during the fight with the Fused. It would indeed seem cold of Kaladin to dismiss her like this if he did notice her intervention (and even more so if Adolin told him about what happened during the battle of Thaylen Field (i.e.: the sword telling Adolin her name, him summoning her in fewer than ten heartbeats, her seemingly warning him of danger despite being a "dead" spren, etc.).  In the meantime, I choose to chalk Kaladin's response up to him being used to hanging out with extremely eager proto-Windrunners who feel horribly socially excluded when unable to draw stormlight or bond a spren. It could make sense for Kaladin to think Adolin might feel the same way as the bridgemen (and Adolin did feel this way, at least for a while, as he told Shallan on at least two occasions that he felt somewhat "beneath" Radiants). Thus, Kaladin's reaction was to explain away Adolin's "failure" to bond a spren by blaming not a personal shortcoming, but his insistance on keeping his shardblade.

I'm trying my best to make it make sense, ha ha ha!

I like this interpretation. I just scanned that scene in OB and I think Kal has already fallen into the sea of beads before that part, so he probably didn’t see it. So maybe Adolin didn’t tell him?

but Adolin does use her name and her have to have explained that I think. It’s definitely curious.

[+robardin]

44 minutes ago, go_go_gragdet said:

I plan to do a re-read of the Shadesmar section of OB to gather evidence of Kaladin noticing (or not noticing) Maya physically defending Adolin during the fight with the Fused. It would indeed seem cold of Kaladin to dismiss her like this if he did notice her intervention (and even more so if Adolin told him about what happened during the battle of Thaylen Field (i.e.: the sword telling Adolin her name, him summoning her in fewer than ten heartbeats, her seemingly warning him of danger despite being a "dead" spren, etc.).  In the meantime, I choose to chalk Kaladin's response up to him being used to hanging out with extremely eager proto-Windrunners who feel horribly socially excluded when unable to draw stormlight or bond a spren. It could make sense for Kaladin to think Adolin might feel the same way as the bridgemen (and Adolin did feel this way, at least for a while, as he told Shallan on at least two occasions that he felt somewhat "beneath" Radiants). Thus, Kaladin's reaction was to explain away Adolin's "failure" to bond a spren by blaming not a personal shortcoming, but his insistance on keeping his shardblade.

I'm trying my best to make it make sense, ha ha ha!

I doubt even a spren like Syl would be particularly invested in the idea of reviving a deadeye spren - it wouldn't enter their mind as a serious possibility, in-world.

Their default attitude could well be that what Maya showed was certainly... Unusual... But at best a kind of echo of life, not the real thing. Which maybe even seems even more monstrous and tragic to them.

And yes, if it were holding Adolin back from a "real" Nahel bond, not only would Kaladin advocate for that from the POV of "you're the last Kholin without a spren bond" (even Elhokar, who Kaladin held a lot less respect for until the very end, was about to bond one), imagine also that a spren of another order - perhaps even a "live" Cultivationspren if he is indeed attractive as an Edgedancer - might feel... Insulted? That he's clinging to a dead one instead of bonding a live one that's looking to bond?

[Subvisual Haze]

I thought this line by Adolin contrasting his and Kaladin's interactions with common people interesting

Quote

“He notices,” Adolin said. “He cares. But Kaladin’s a soldier—and he thinks like one. Right, bridgeboy?”

“I have no idea what you mean,” Kaladin grumbled, sipping his drink.

“You’ve learned to worry about your squad,” Adolin said. “And to cut out extraneous information. I’ll bet Kaladin could tell you the age, eye color, and favorite food of everyone serving beneath him. But he’s not going to bother with remembering the names of the bar staff. Father’s the same way.”

I think this is setting up the idea that Kaladin is the natural successor to Dalinar as the leader of the coalition armies.  They have the same aura of command that inspires respect from others.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Yeah, but I mean the CYA liability statement you quoted can be found with minor rephrasing in probably every clinical guideline that has ever existed. You have to put that sort of thing in to shield yourself from lawsuits as well as individual doctors who get very touchy if they perceive guidelines as restricting their autonomy. 

You can generally depend on clinical guidelines as an excellent starting point, realizing that individual patient cases will of course have special scenarios.  I think the section that resonated most with me was the introduction to the treatment section

Everything you said I completely agree with. What I didn't agree with is saying as per the guidelines, if Shallan does anything other than full fusion, then she has failed in handling DID. That her end goal must be full fusion as per the document and that can be the only true resolution. Which is what Rainer stated on multiple posts. Which is not what the document said nor is intended for at all. Hence why I quoted the disclaimer. If the subsequent pages are read and quoted, that is further expounded upon. Which is why I felt the portions quoted and presented in that manner were unfair and inaccurate. So once again, I am not attacking the paper. I am disagreeing with the way it was presented and used in this manner. 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Pathfinder

[+robardin]

7 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Everything you said I completely agree with. What I didn't agree with is saying as per the guidelines, if Shallan does anything other than full fusion, then she has failed in handling DID. That her end goal must be full fusion as per the document and that can be the only true resolution. Which is what Rainer stated on multiple posts. Which is not what the document said nor is intended for at all. Hence why I quoted the disclaimer. If the subsequent pages are read and quoted, that is further expounded upon. Which is why I felt the portions quoted and presented in that manner were unfair and inaccurate. So once again, I am not attacking the paper. I am disagreeing with the way it was presented and used in this manner. 

Yabbut @Rainier has consistently parameterized that characterization in the context of Shallan being a fictional character in a tale of epic fantasy who's blocking at the Third Ideal, in which this DID type thing is clearly meant to be a factor.

Even if a DID situation can be considered "handled" in real life without an "integration" occurring, as you are citing, it is very hard to picture a narrative event that would resolve the tension points already built up in Oathbringer and the early chapters of RoW without one.

Is it impossible? Probably not. Would it be easy? No.

I would agree we shouldn't assume it's definitely or definitely not "integration" in the sense of "dispelling alternate identities as useful but imaginary constructs under Shallan's full control"; but you needn't argue so strongly against that scenario, either. It's basically the default one. From a narrative perspective. Another tack would take a lot more work. And considering how long SA is in general, would Brandon devote the text space to it?

The answer could be yes, if the payoff were huge (and it might be). But I wouldn't invest myself in that. I'm assuming an integration-type event is likely and will hopefully be pleasantly surprised if that proves not to be the case.

[NameIess]

I don't really want to get into this argument, but I would just like to clarify that Shallan is fourth ideal, not third.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Nameless

[Pathfinder]

4 minutes ago, robardin said:

Yabbut @Rainier has consistently parameterized that characterization in the context of Shallan being a fictional character in a tale of epic fantasy who's blocking at the Third Ideal, in which this DID type thing is clearly meant to be a factor.

I disagree. If you use a real world document as a means of stating how someone is to function, then the document ceases to apply once the effect is altered in the name of "its a fictional character". Further Shallan swearing her truths, and the existence of her alters are related but not subject to one another. Let me put it this way

 

1. traumatic past is the truths Shallan needs to swear

2. traumatic past gave rise to Shallan's alters

3. Shallan swears truths confronting traumatic past, alters go away

 

We know as per numerous sources, including the one referenced, that even with full fusion, further trauma can result in the re-emergence, or creation of additional alters. It is not an on and off switch. Further we know there is a limited number of oaths. Lightweavers do not swear truths forever. It caps at five. But that does not mean a lightweaver will never suffer further trauma, nor will a lightweaver never have further personal realizations. Just that the realizations associated with the advancement of the oaths have been accomplished. 

Hmm here is another way of putting it possibly. Even if Kaladin accomplishes all his oaths, and comes to terms with protecting in the way the oaths state, does not change he still has seasonal depression. It will not change that he will still have down days and up days. Just like even if Shallan confronts the trauma of her past, and learns to deal with it, does not mean she will not still feel the need to depend on her alters to handle further subsequent challenges. The alters will have successfully helped her come to intergrate her memories, but still be part of her coping mechanism in the current day. 

Now stating if this is the case, it is narratively unsatisfactory? That is a separate issue in my mind. That is purely personal and subjective on the part of the reader. Just like there are individuals that dislike the idea that Kaladin will always have depression, there will be people that feel Shallan having DID lacks a resolution. And that is totally okay and acceptable to those people. To each their own. But that lack of narrative satisfaction for that group of individuals does not alter or change the way DID functions for those with it, nor should that necessarily dictate how Sanderson chooses to write the narrative. Can't make everyone happy all of the time right? 

Basically my point is for someone to find the narrative personally unsatisfactory is not evidence that the narrative cannot and will not go that route. And further that an aspect of that narrative must function in a manner in order to make the narrative satisfactory. It is circuitous.

Hopefully I did a good job explaining.  

[Ytsken]

1 hour ago, Bliev said:

but Adolin does use her name and her have to have explained that I think. It’s definitely curious.

Not necessarily. In book 2, it is mentioned that Adolin is rare for not having named his sword. The reason (which he keeps to himself) is that he feels he should not give a name to something that already had one. But Kaladin didn't know this, or him, very well at the time... so him now referring to his sword as Maya will likely only be noticed by someone who knew him well enough beforehand to notice this.

[Subvisual Haze]

I feel incredibly dirty for using corporate-speak, but why not think of it like stretch goals?

The first priority (with all mental health diseases really) is simply being able to function.  Shallan can certainly achieve this without achieving perfect integration.  She would need to be better integrated than she currently is though.  She would need to view her identities as part of herself and a tool that she needs to take accountability for.

You can still set a stretch goal of fusion though.  It doesn't mean you're a failure if you don't reach that, but it's still a goal to strive towards.  Just like Kaladin can strive to self-care so well that he never sinks into a full depressive episode again, or Teft strives towards never falling off the wagon and using firemoss again for the rest of his life.

[+Bliev]

3 minutes ago, Ytsken said:

Not necessarily. In book 2, it is mentioned that Adolin is rare for not having named his sword. The reason (which he keeps to himself) is that he feels he should not give a name to something that already had one. But Kaladin didn't know this, or him, very well at the time... so him now referring to his sword as Maya will likely only be noticed by someone who knew him well enough beforehand to notice this.

That is one possibility for sure.

It does make me think: Adolin is being this great friend and partner, right? In tune with their needs and wanting to help them. Are Shallan and Kaladin reciprocating that with him? Do they just think he’s fine because he’s always acting fine? Because I’m an Adolin and we often look and act fine but we are not always fine. Lol because I’d think that would be something to be shared among close friends—your deadeye sword telling you her name and trying to save your life. 

[Pathfinder]

35 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I feel incredibly dirty for using corporate-speak, but why not think of it like stretch goals?

The first priority (with all mental health diseases really) is simply being able to function.  Shallan can certainly achieve this without achieving perfect integration.  She would need to be better integrated than she currently is though.  She would need to view her identities as part of herself and a tool that she needs to take accountability for.

You can still set a stretch goal of fusion though.  It doesn't mean you're a failure if you don't reach that, but it's still a goal to strive towards.  Just like Kaladin can strive to self-care so well that he never sinks into a full depressive episode again, or Teft strives towards never falling off the wagon and using firemoss again for the rest of his life.

Lol I think you can forgive yourself as it is not purely used in corporations and can be beneficial in a myriad of other circumstances.

Please do not take this as me using you to illustrate a point, but this is what I mean by the paper being misrepresented. I am not saying you are misrepresenting it, but in the paper it mentions that integration and fusion are two different things. Shallan can still have her alters and be integrated. Full fusion is what you are thinking of, and even that is not a guarantee.

Kaladin can strive for self care so well, but there will still be times he will sink into a full depressive episode. The self care is to help him handle it, and work his way back out of it. But full depressive episodes are always on the table. And having a full depressive episode is not indicative of someone failing in therapy, or not working as hard. You can do everything "right", and even do things "right" for years, and a full depressive episode still happen. 

edit: or to use your other example, Teft can strive to never fall off the wagon ever again regarding firemoss, but that will not change that whether you put Teft in front of fire moss tomorrow, in a month, in a year, in 10, or 30 years, the longing and craving for it will still be there, as strong and powerful. And he will still have to fight it. 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Subvisual Haze]

28 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Kaladin can strive for self care so well, but there will still be times he will sink into a full depressive episode. The self care is to help him handle it, and work his way back out of it. But full depressive episodes are always on the table. And having a full depressive episode is not indicative of someone failing in therapy, or not working as hard. You can do everything "right", and even do things "right" for years, and a full depressive episode still happen. 

edit: or to use your other example, Teft can strive to never fall off the wagon ever again regarding firemoss, but that will not change that whether you put Teft in front of fire moss tomorrow, in a month, in a year, in 10, or 30 years, the longing and craving for it will still be there, as strong and powerful. And he will still have to fight it. 

But as a healthcare provider myself I'm intimately aware that placebo and nocebo are both incredibly powerful forces.  Our pre-conceptions of what is and is not possible/likely plays a surprisingly important role in the actual outcomes of processes.  If a patient goes into a treatment convinced that it will not work, odds are that it will indeed not work.  The opposite is also true to an extent.  This is particularly true in the complex areas of mental health.

Thus, even if it isn't very likely that Kaladin (or myself) will never experience another depressive episode, by pursuing and believing the possibility that it is so, we slightly tweak the odds in our favor (or viewed from a different perspective, we avoid the negative modifier associated with believing that all is hopeless).  Hope Springs Eternal etc.

[Pathfinder]

26 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

But as a healthcare provider myself I'm intimately aware that placebo and nocebo are both incredibly powerful forces.  Our pre-conceptions of what is and is not possible/likely plays a surprisingly important role in the actual outcomes of processes.  If a patient goes into a treatment convinced that it will not work, odds are that it will indeed not work.  The opposite is also true to an extent.  This is particularly true in the complex areas of mental health.

Thus, even if it isn't very likely that Kaladin (or myself) will never experience another depressive episode, by pursuing and believing the possibility that it is so, we slightly tweak the odds in our favor (or viewed from a different perspective, we avoid the negative modifier associated with believing that all is hopeless).  Hope Springs Eternal etc.

Genuinely confused. Not sure where I said things were hopeless. Just because it is always present does not mean people with the conditions cannot live happy and productive lives. The condition not vanishing does not mean the treatment is not working. 

[+Bliev]

I mean, I am not narratively wedded to any specific outcome, except one that feels right for the path Shallan goes down, which is unclear to me at this point and I'm excited to find out where she goes. 

But I can absolutely envision a satisfying ending for me that includes a self-aware Shallan living with Adolin (oh please please please don't die Adolin!) at the end of Book 5, with Veil and Radiant still talking with her in her head, and agreeing that they will both be there for her if she needs them, but they want to let her live her life. And they rarely--if ever--come back out to play any more. But they aren't integrated. Rather, they're still a part of her life, just not in the same way. So she never does the things Veil did; she never acts like Radiant. She's still the "OG" Shallan, just settled and well.

[Mulk]

On 9/25/2020 at 8:37 PM, Bliev said:

It does make me think: Adolin is being this great friend and partner, right? In tune with their needs and wanting to help them. Are Shallan and Kaladin reciprocating that with him? Do they just think he’s fine because he’s always acting fine? Because I’m an Adolin and we often look and act fine but we are not always fine. Lol because I’d think that would be something to be shared among close friends—your deadeye sword telling you her name and trying to save your life. 

Being in the throes of depression (I can't speak to DID at all) often means you don't have the capacity to focus on whether someone is putting on a front for your sake or being genuine.  I doubt Kaladin has the presence to do much 'analysis' of Adolin's current circumstances and capacities.

I'm going to guess he's told Shallan about what happened with Maya, thought I doubt Kaladin knows. We'll see - there's a lot of book left to go and we haven't seen much at all of Adolin yet, especially from his point of view.