Valigus

Most dangerous character in the cosmere in a fight?

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obviously not including insanely op characters like the lord ruler, vin burning mist, shards, heralds, etc...
 

I was wondering this but I haven’t had time to read Elantris so I wanted to know why people who have read all of it think. 
personally I think it’s got to be between 5 characters with powers and 6 without.

with powers
Kaladin, vin, szeth, marsh and jasnah

without powers 

kaladin, szeth, dalinar, adolin, Vasher, and denth

 

with powers

Kaladin and szeth I shouldn’t need to explain they are the most well rounded characters in terms of fighting prowess being both incredibly good fighters with their weapons and incredibly adept in the use of their powers.

vin probably has the best control over her powers of anyone. With marsh almost as dangerous as her plus better with weapons.

jasnah with her soul tasing is insane though I think she would be weaker the stronger the enemy she fights is because of the investiture.

 

Without

 

kaladin and dalinar are force of natures on the battlefield even without powers 

adolin is probably the beast duelists we see

vasher trained adolin

denth was a batter swords man then Vasher
 

and szeth is assumedly quite good.

 

am I missing anyone specifically from Elantris?

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7 minutes ago, Valigus said:

am I missing anyone specifically from Elantris?

No, not really. True, AonDor has insane potential since it's basically a way to program reality. Debatably, Elantrians who have been training to use their skills in combat for hundreds of years would be insanely OP, but we know nobody like that. Raoden is the closest we've got, and he's only been using AonDor for a few weeks or months.

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A fight without investiture would be really cool to see!
* In Stormlight I’d put my bet on Szeth, since we know he’s proficient in kammar. On top of that, we know Szeth has been in lots of fights and there aren’t many people who can stand up to him on Roshar. Though Kaladin, Dalinar, and Adolin would probably have the best chance of killing him.

* In Mistborn, I’d say it would be Ham, since we know he’s spent a lot of time training with soldiers. He’s perfected the art of pewter and he knows how to fight very well.

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10 minutes ago, The Skybreaker said:

* In Stormlight I’d put my bet on Szeth, since we know he’s proficient in kammar. On top of that, we know Szeth has been in lots of fights and there aren’t many people who can stand up to him on Roshar. Though Kaladin, Dalinar, and Adolin would probably have the best chance of killing him.

I mean, hand-to-hand combat isn't really useful unless your oponent doesn't have a weapon. Kaladin is probably better with the spear, as with stormlight and a spear he was able to go head-to-head with Szeth with stormlight and a Shardblade.

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In a powered fight I vote Elantrian all day. Their power set is super OP.

In a non powered fight I vote Dalinar. Dalinar fought Szeth without powers and held his own while Szeth was using an honor blade. Even Adolin was blown away by the display. I’d say he is the top of the line excluding possibly some of the immortals that have trained for hundreds of years (which imo falls into the category of powers).

Without powers every Cosmere character loses to the baddest mofo ever written, Lan Mandragoran. He didn’t come here to win, he came here to kill you.

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On 9/19/2020 at 5:45 PM, SwordNimiForPresident said:

In a powered fight I vote Elantrian all day. Their power set is super OP.

In a non powered fight I vote Dalinar. Dalinar fought Szeth without powers and held his own while Szeth was using an honor blade. Even Adolin was blown away by the display. I’d say he is the top of the line excluding possibly some of the immortals that have trained for hundreds of years (which imo falls into the category of powers).

Without powers every Cosmere character loses to the baddest mofo ever written, Lan Mandragoran. He didn’t come here to win, he came here to kill you.

According to a wob of dalinar in his old blackthorn mode had met kaladin on the battlefield kaladin would probably have won. It’s a little vague but that’s the essence of it.

 

 

5F478709-F393-4015-BBA9-D5441A56B0B9.png

Edited by Valigus
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So, even deprived of stormlight and their Heraldy powers, I'd have to give it to one of the Heralds, with my personal bias towards Taln. They have actual millennium of combat experience. Even if they're not the most naturally talented, I'm reminded of a wheel of time WoB where Sanderson said the Heralds were able to make mistakes, get killed because of them, and now never make those same mistakes again. That's an insane experience for combat, and they've had so long to master their skills that I can't imagine them being anything but godlike, even with no powers. After them, probably Denth, for similar reasons.

If they don't count and you want relatively "vanilla" mortals, I have to go with Kaladin or Adolin. Kaladin is a prodigy with years of experience and instincts that would make a wild beast jealous and Adolin is a dueling genius with some of the best training possible on his world and years of regular front line experience in a massive war.

Once you start bringing powers into the mix, I actually would have to give it to Kelsier. His fighting style relying on his thus far unrivaled mastery allomantic steel and iron is so unpredictable and versatile that I find it hard to imagine anyone really coming up with a good counter for him. And to those who might say that gravitation would let someone keep up with him, I disagree. Gravitation has a higher maximum speed, but Kel has far more acceleration and maneuverability midair.

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Year if it’s any non shard Or Hoid entities definitely a herald, the lord ruler is the only other comparable power level person but he has way less experience.

between kaladin and adolin I think with no powers it’s too dependent on other factors to call.

 

kelsier though while yes he is skilled and dangerous roshar is a whole other power level to Scadrial a random guy with shard plate could probably just ignore his pushes and pulls. But I think the most insane thing against them would be a reverse lashing beat way to counter that would be to just walk to a wall and suck everything he was manipulating to the wall.

while kelsier is a beast I just don’t think he could really best anyone with powers on roshar. Roshar is the highest combative power level we have yet to see Yolen is probably the only world we will see that’s got more investiture. Now I feel like the world from Warbreaker has a comparable level of investiture when it comes to powerful users it’s just not as combative.

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It just occurred to me that I’m putting non powered combat in a box of sword and spear style fighting. The truth is that Waxillium would kill all these swordmasters by the dozen with his pistol skills. Combat is combat, and your weapon of choice matters. Don’t bring a rock to a grenade fight.

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12 hours ago, Valigus said:

Year if it’s any non shard Or Hoid entities definitely a herald, the lord ruler is the only other comparable power level person but he has way less experience.

between kaladin and adolin I think with no powers it’s too dependent on other factors to call.

 

kelsier though while yes he is skilled and dangerous roshar is a whole other power level to Scadrial a random guy with shard plate could probably just ignore his pushes and pulls. But I think the most insane thing against them would be a reverse lashing beat way to counter that would be to just walk to a wall and suck everything he was manipulating to the wall.

while kelsier is a beast I just don’t think he could really best anyone with powers on roshar. Roshar is the highest combative power level we have yet to see Yolen is probably the only world we will see that’s got more investiture. Now I feel like the world from Warbreaker has a comparable level of investiture when it comes to powerful users it’s just not as combative.

Which version of Kell are we talking about? Because 

Spoiler

300 years of experience, medallions and access to modern Scadrian weaponry, even if we remove the Feruchemy he may or may not have picked up, is a pretty deadly combo.

 

 
He’s also, along with Vasher, the most likely to survive a general melee.
 
Fantasy Faction interview (April 24, 2014)
#6 
 
 

Fantasy Faction

Finally, and most importantly, if all your protagonists had an epic all out brawl, who would win?

Brandon Sanderson

Some of them are immortal, but that would kind of be cheating. If you let people who are immortal participate, it's going to very much favor someone like Hoid, who is really, really, really hard to kill. Of course, he would not be very good at offing anyone either, because of certain things in his past. It would be really futile when it got down to the last two. But if we take that out.

You'd have to set ground rules. Do they get access to their magic? Where is it taking place? If we take away all magic and we just say people are beating up on each other, who's going to win? It's probably Kelsier because he'll fight dirty. Vasher fights really dirty, too. If Kelsier and Vasher gang up on the rest, and then it depends who's still not in pieces at the end. It'd be Kelsier or Vasher probably.

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with powers: Szeth and Marsh. Marsh is essentially a weaker version of TLR. Szeth seems to have gotten the best training. hes also a prodigy or something.

without powers: Szeth and Denth. for Szeth, see above. for Denth I am not sure. his inhuman speed may be attributed to being a Returned. without powers idk how good he would fare.

 

Szeth is stronger than Kaladin. the Honorblade was what tipped the scales. true Shardblades are vastly superior. not to mention Szeths shock.

now Szeth has access to better combat abilities aswell. Skybreakers are easily superior to Windrunners for combat. and Nightblood is just ridiculous.

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I don’t feel like marsh is really that dangerous compared to a lot of other characters the problem I’m seeing is that basically roshar having such a higher power level with powers on its a little unbalanced. Because I don’t think with powers any of the other people are really capable of beating a radiant. Guns are nice but it doesn’t really matter if you headshot a radiant they just walk it off, and I really don’t think anyone who relys on melee combat can beat someone with a shard blade. Vasher can die like a normal person and woudl probably lose to a radiant, kelsier even with that much experience I just don’t think is beating a shard blade imagine if at the beginning of the fight the radiant just turned the shard blade into a 20 foot long tiny sword and just swept it at waist level across the arena, what’s gonna save really any character there, and while that sounds far fetched kaladin is using like a 9-12 foot lance so it seems possible.

i also do not think nightblood counts because we aren’t counting heralds, lord ruler or god king and I think nightblood is an entity in the same league.

But I agree szeth is probably the most dangerous, sky breakers may be honestly the most op order of the knights radiant, because honestly the most op combat surge has to be either transformation or gravitation, and if we look at the people with those surges windrunners have adhesion which I nice I guess and may become stronger but we don’t know, illumination is nice but not the same level in combat, transportation unless it does actually allow teleportation is also weaker, but division is a perfect combative surge from what we know. Szeth is probably the only main character in stormlight who has both powers and is on kaladins level as a fighter, and seeing as surgebinding is way better in a lot of ways then most other things, frankly I’d bet on a 5th or 4th oath surgebinder From a combative order over a fullborn, and with szeth having better surges he is probably the most dangerous character. Though I really really would love to see a full on sparring match between szeth and kaladin.

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54 minutes ago, Valigus said:

I don’t feel like marsh is really that dangerous compared to a lot of other characters the problem I’m seeing is that basically roshar having such a higher power level with powers on its a little unbalanced. Because I don’t think with powers any of the other people are really capable of beating a radiant. Guns are nice but it doesn’t really matter if you headshot a radiant they just walk it off, and I really don’t think anyone who relys on melee combat can beat someone with a shard blade. Vasher can die like a normal person and woudl probably lose to a radiant, kelsier even with that much experience I just don’t think is beating a shard blade imagine if at the beginning of the fight the radiant just turned the shard blade into a 20 foot long tiny sword and just swept it at waist level across the arena, what’s gonna save really any character there, and while that sounds far fetched kaladin is using like a 9-12 foot lance so it seems possible.

i also do not think nightblood counts because we aren’t counting heralds, lord ruler or god king and I think nightblood is an entity in the same league.

But I agree szeth is probably the most dangerous, sky breakers may be honestly the most op order of the knights radiant, because honestly the most op combat surge has to be either transformation or gravitation, and if we look at the people with those surges windrunners have adhesion which I nice I guess and may become stronger but we don’t know, illumination is nice but not the same level in combat, transportation unless it does actually allow teleportation is also weaker, but division is a perfect combative surge from what we know. Szeth is probably the only main character in stormlight who has both powers and is on kaladins level as a fighter, and seeing as surgebinding is way better in a lot of ways then most other things, frankly I’d bet on a 5th or 4th oath surgebinder From a combative order over a fullborn, and with szeth having better surges he is probably the most dangerous character. Though I really really would love to see a full on sparring match between szeth and kaladin.

I'm sorry, this might be another conversation, but did you really just say you'd put a normal radiant in a higher power level than a fullborn? Fullborn being able to accidentally break the sound barrier and move buildings. Fullborn being able to heal just about any injury a shardblade could inflict. Just a normal radiant ranks above that? Yeah, can't agree to that.

I agree that Marsh isn't a particularly noteworthy combatant, in part because I remember a thread where we tried to figure out all his metals, and he's definitely not fullborn, even if he's got some compounding abilities. And guns really are not useful against anyone with healing. Bullets just don't have the surface area to force healing to spread out and deplete a healer's investiture.

4 hours ago, trav said:

with powers: Szeth and Marsh. Marsh is essentially a weaker version of TLR. Szeth seems to have gotten the best training. hes also a prodigy or something.

without powers: Szeth and Denth. for Szeth, see above. for Denth I am not sure. his inhuman speed may be attributed to being a Returned. without powers idk how good he would fare.

 

Szeth is stronger than Kaladin. the Honorblade was what tipped the scales. true Shardblades are vastly superior. not to mention Szeths shock.

now Szeth has access to better combat abilities aswell. Skybreakers are easily superior to Windrunners for combat. and Nightblood is just ridiculous.

Szeth is a master of the surges, I'll give you that. But we haven't really seen him fight without powers enough for me to be convinced he'd be better than Kaladin. I do agree with your choice of Denth, but I think Denth is probably the best swordsman we've actually seen on screen. Mostly because we've never actually seen what the Heralds can do, but even then, he had a lot of time to perfect his craft. I mean, from everything we know, Vasher is a really good swordsman, and Denth barely had to try to best him, only losing when Vasher did his breath overload trick.

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I specifically said a radiant of the 4th or 5th ideal which gives them at least shard plate and who knows what else, with the relative investiture between the planets I bet a full born could only heal one or two blows from a shardblade and while doing that couldn’t do anything else if it was spinal, I think a radiant with shard plate could catch a full orb off guard just longer enough to get those blows in, especially if they have gravitation and just s it up in the sky waiting.

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6 hours ago, Valigus said:

I specifically said a radiant of the 4th or 5th ideal which gives them at least shard plate and who knows what else, with the relative investiture between the planets I bet a full born could only heal one or two blows from a shardblade and while doing that couldn’t do anything else if it was spinal, I think a radiant with shard plate could catch a full orb off guard just longer enough to get those blows in, especially if they have gravitation and just s it up in the sky waiting.

I can’t see any reason a Fullborn would ever need to heal from a Shardblade hit, given that they have nearly unlimited F-steel. A radiant wouldn’t even have time to summon their blade. The Fullborn could tap steel, iron and pewter and then touch the radiant with A-chromium. Drain all of their Stormlight and deliver a slap with the force of a freight train.

This would all happen faster than human eyes are even capable seeing.

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Yeah, we really haven't seen any non-shards yet that I think can really threaten a fullborn. I'm sure they exist or will be discovered in later eras, and I currently expect if we ever see prime Heralds with their blades then we'll have such an example, but thus far they represent the apex of human invested achievements. Which is why frankly I think they should be disqualified from this discussion. If the general consensus is that a prepared and competent fullborn is the most dangerous type of person in the cosmere, then lets have some fun trying to find second place. 

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Which is why I said that, and while yes a fully prepared full born is basically unstoppable I think a well prepared knight radiant with a blade and plate could probably beat a less prepared and complacent full born like the lord ruler.

 

but second place honestly has to be kaladin or szeth frankly since sword loses to spear is bet on kaladin if we disqualified Nightblood since of fullborn doesn’t count neither should nightblood

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What about Hoid? He's got the power of so many different magic systems and knowledge of how to use them, including being a Lerasium Mistborn. And Pre-Shattering magic that is involved in his healing and his immortality, it would seem (such that he doesn't even fear Jasnah's Shardblade as a serious threat to his existence - Nightblood being a different story).

Yeah yeah, he has some sort of vow that prevents him from hurting people (in the Physical Realm, anyway)... But is that something he could work around with the proper Soulstamp, do you think?

Unshackled Hoid could be pretty terrifying!

Edited by robardin
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Nightblood technically counts as an individual.

So him.

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Excluded: Ascended versions of characters, Nightblood, TLR, Shards, and characters who we don't know enough about their powers to make a judgement call (aka Hoid) 

With powers: Kelsier, Szeth, Jasnah, Wax, and possibly Vasher or Vin. 

Without powers: Prime Dalinar, Kaladin, and probably still Wax and/or Vasher. 

The Heralds are tricky, since they have eons of experience that others don't have. At their prime, I'd say they'd be able to take out most non-Ascended/TLR characters. As it stands now, maybe Nale, Taln, or Ash with powers could do so. But I'm honestly not sure. 

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1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

Excluded: Ascended versions of characters, Nightblood, TLR, Shards, and characters who we don't know enough about their powers to make a judgement call (aka Hoid) 

With powers: Kelsier, Szeth, Jasnah, Wax, and possibly Vasher or Vin. 

Without powers: Prime Dalinar, Kaladin, and probably still Wax and/or Vasher. 

The Heralds are tricky, since they have eons of experience that others don't have. At their prime, I'd say they'd be able to take out most non-Ascended/TLR characters. As it stands now, maybe Nale, Taln, or Ash with powers could do so. But I'm honestly not sure. 

Without powers, in a general melee: Vasher and Kell, per WoB. I quoted it earlier.

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18 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Without powers, in a general melee: Vasher and Kell, per WoB. I quoted it earlier.

HE SAYS BRAWL not melee in a melee Kaladin or Szeth wins that's what he says in a different WoB Szeth passingly thinks (mentions?) that he knows several different martial arts and he was only using Kammar because it was contact based which was useful for Lashing people with magic it goes to Rosharians and fullborn(s) assuming no access to stormlight and 'minds as well as metals it goes to Rosharians of 3 ideal and above with access well bye bye cosmere but honestly I think it still goes to a Rosharian with the caveat that spren might not be able to be sucked into Chromium but it would likely require Dalinar do to his ability to make essentially infinite stormlight and we know that the Stormfather can be made into a shardblade (although he doesn't like it) and after the first blow Dalinar can spray the ground with Adhesion stopping the fullborn in their tracks and then Dalinar can do pretty much whatever he wants

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49 minutes ago, Somebody from Sel said:

HE SAYS BRAWL not melee in a melee Kaladin or Szeth wins that's what he says in a different WoB Szeth passingly thinks (mentions?) that he knows several different martial arts and he was only using Kammar because it was contact based which was useful for Lashing people with magic it goes to Rosharians and fullborn(s) assuming no access to stormlight and 'minds as well as metals it goes to Rosharians of 3 ideal and above with access well bye bye cosmere but honestly I think it still goes to a Rosharian with the caveat that spren might not be able to be sucked into Chromium but it would likely require Dalinar do to his ability to make essentially infinite stormlight and we know that the Stormfather can be made into a shardblade (although he doesn't like it) and after the first blow Dalinar can spray the ground with Adhesion stopping the fullborn in their tracks and then Dalinar can do pretty much whatever he wants

Um... what do you think a melee is...? They’re synonyms.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/melee

Fray, "donnybrook," "brawl," "fracas": there are many English words for confused and noisy fights, and in the 17th century "melee" was thrown into the mix. It comes from the French melee, which in turn comes from the Old French meslee, meaning "mixture." "Meslee" comes from the Old French verb mesler, or "medler," which means "to mix." This verb is also the source of "medley" ("a mixture or hodgepodge") and "meddle" ("to mix oneself in others' affairs" or "to interfere

Basically, they mean the same thing and may be used interchangeably. In a non-powered fight Vasher and Kell come out on top. On a battlefield, Kaladin does.
 

In powered fight it can vary a lot depending on the situation. Provided there is enough sand, I can see Kenton being a surprisingly dangerous combatant. I don’t see him winning, but I do see him killing quite a few KR’s before he’s out. The eye holes are one of the few weaknesses in the plate, and his skill set allows him to target that directly. Plus, the Invested sand probably can’t be easily manipulated by surges. I suspect it could also damage plate.

 

I can also see Era 1 Mistborn + Feruchemists with Era 2 weaponry being a problem, particularly if they have good aim and aluminum bullets and a nice supply of Atium and Bendalloy. Particularly if they team up. Think Marasi burning Cadmium in Wayne’s Bendalloy bubble, while Wax quickly explains how guns work to Kell, Vin, Elend, Saze, Marsh, Tindwyl and Spook, while in a speedbubble  outside the Cadmium bubble. Then those eight dodge in and out repeatedly, sniping with aluminum bullets and throwing dynamite while their opponents are essentially frozen. Something like that, and I’d give the win to team Scadrial.

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On 9/25/2020 at 7:39 AM, Frustration said:

Nightblood technically counts as an individual.

So him.

You're assuming he can get himself out of his sheet for even five seconds to use his power.

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5 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

You're assuming he can get himself out of his sheet for even five seconds to use his power.

He doesn't need to in warbreaker he makes people commit suicide on his blade.

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