Requirements for burning metals

[+Krox]

I was reading a thread on the burning of Harmonium, and that had already gotten off track so I thought I'd start a new thread regarding the burning of metals and subsequently the burning of the ever so reactive Harmonium.

I found this WOB which is even quite fresh:

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Matthew Grady

Does a metal need to be swallowed to be burned? Or can it be injected or snorted?

Brandon Sanderson

It could be either of those two things. Yes. Basically, metal into the body in any way is going to work, generally. There's nothing magical about the stomach, even though it works the best when we talk about it. It's just more intermixing the nature of the metal with your soul in the cosmere, your Spiritual entity, is what gives them that ability.

YouTube Livestream 10 (June 18, 2020)

Suddenly I wondered why they would even ingest the metal and found this:

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Kaymyth

I asked the question about chromium vs a Compounder with both Invested and un-Invested metals in both their stomach and piercings.

Brandon Sanderson

What it boils down to is this:

1) Yes, the piercings will get burned off.

2) The non-Invested metals go before the Invested ones. He said that because Invested metals are harder to affect, it takes a little extra time and effort to get them to burn off. So a Leecher trying to clean out a Compounder would have to get a good grip and hang on for a few seconds.

3) Chromium burns about as quickly as duralumin, so if you're trying to burn off a lot of metals, it is possible to run out of chromium before your target is clean. This would probably only be an issue when dealing with larger pieces (like jewelry) rather than your standard metal-flakes-in-the-stomach deal.

ConQuest 46 (May 22, 2015)

 

And now I'm kind of confused - why do allomancers ingest the metals? Piercings made of the correct metal will give the allomancers a much bigger storage to use (I small earring will contain more metal than a few flakes ingested) and you don't have to be afraid of metal poisoning if you don't burn it off.

I also have a question regarding the state of the metal consumed, can you burn a rusted piece of iron? (ie. a nail competely covered with, but not only consisiting of, rust)
If you coat the metal in epoxy or anything else, can you still burn it?

If you can coat the metal before consumption/insertion, the allomantic use of Harmonium is suddenly unproblematic..!

[Caden335]

I doubt it

[StanLemon]

I think the main reason they ingest it is because it is more convenient. If you end burning too much of the piercing you might have the piercing fall out. 

As far as coating metals go, I'm fairly certain that won't work because burning works from the outside of the metal in. I'll have to look for it but Brandon has said that if you coat a metal with another metal it will burn off the coated metal before you can even touch the interior metal

[+Krox]

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Lurcher
Can you burn a metal wrapped in another metal, if both are Allomantic? Like, the inner metal, could you just burn that before? 

Brandon Sanderson
No, you're gonna have to work your way through the outer one. 

Lurcher
And what if it was a non-Allomantic metal? The same? 

Brandon Sanderson
It's gonna depend on how thick it is, and stuff. But I would say, if you wrap it in a non-Allomantic metal, that's not good for getting to the metal. It's viable, but it just depends on how thick it is, and things like that. Like, sometimes things have been plated to keep the access to the metal off, but usually you would want to do that in aluminum, to make sure.  https://wob.coppermind.net/events/127/#e5124

I found this, and if you had a very thin layer of plastic wrap I'm sure it would be accessible based on this..?

[+robardin]

22 hours ago, StanLemon said:

I think the main reason they ingest it is because it is more convenient. If you end burning too much of the piercing you might have the piercing fall out. 

As far as coating metals go, I'm fairly certain that won't work because burning works from the outside of the metal in. I'll have to look for it but Brandon has said that if you coat a metal with another metal it will burn off the coated metal before you can even touch the interior metal

Swallowing it also hides what metal(s) you have and how much. Imagine if you could tell if Wax was running low on steel because his steel earrings were literally burning off of his body, or the type of Allomancer they were from a similar effect.

Plus only the part piercing into the body would intersect "into the body" enough to do the Spiritual mingling... It's just easier, quicker, safer, and more natural to just swallow stuff to get it completely encased in your physical self that to surgically or traumatically insert it.

Agree that coating metal would be to disguise it, like when Vin was fooled by swallowing a bead of lead with a thin veneer of atium 

[Dunkum]

not to mention that metal piercings that fell off when you burned too much would suddenly becomes projectile weapons for enemy mistborn/lurchers/coinshots.  also, not everyone wants piercings or has access to someone who can do it safely (it does carry a minor infection risk, after all).  everyone can swallow liquids, anyone who can't manage that is probably not going to be much use as an allomancer in most situations anyway.  also crafting most metals into piercings takes a lot of effort, even the easiest is far more than just getting a file and shaving off some flakes.

all that said, I could imagine plating an earring or something with your metal so that you had an emergency supply in a fight, if your vials were lost, It could be a good surprise against someone who thought you were out, but its not something I think you'd want to do every single time you wanted to burn your metal - its just far far too much effort.

[+Krox]

On 19.9.2020 at 4:35 PM, robardin said:

Swallowing it also hides what metal(s) you have and how much. Imagine if you could tell if Wax was running low on steel because his steel earrings were literally burning off of his body, or the type of Allomancer they were from a similar effect.

True, but you could also hide your metals fairly well underneath any type of clothing. And running out would not really be much of a problem when you can have a total of 1kg of steel on your body versus a couple of grams in you stomach!

On 19.9.2020 at 4:35 PM, robardin said:

Plus only the part piercing into the body would intersect "into the body" enough to do the Spiritual mingling... It's just easier, quicker, safer, and more natural to just swallow stuff to get it completely encased in your physical self that to surgically or traumatically insert it.

Do we know this? A metalmind can only have parts of it touch your body, wouldn't a metal piercing be the same? I guess the question would be if it burns outside in (body) or inside out (of body).

 

On 19.9.2020 at 11:47 PM, Dunkum said:

not to mention that metal piercings that fell off when you burned too much would suddenly becomes projectile weapons for enemy mistborn/lurchers/coinshots.  also, not everyone wants piercings or has access to someone who can do it safely (it does carry a minor infection risk, after all).  everyone can swallow liquids, anyone who can't manage that is probably not going to be much use as an allomancer in most situations anyway.  also crafting most metals into piercings takes a lot of effort, even the easiest is far more than just getting a file and shaving off some flakes.

The simplicity argument is good, but it still doesn't explain why nobody seems to use it - I can't imagine nobody would have the theatrical flair to not do it!
When it comes to pieces falling off also falls on the question of burning inside out or outside in.

 

On 19.9.2020 at 11:47 PM, Dunkum said:

all that said, I could imagine plating an earring or something with your metal so that you had an emergency supply in a fight, if your vials were lost, It could be a good surprise against someone who thought you were out, but its not something I think you'd want to do every single time you wanted to burn your metal - its just far far too much effort.

Aluminium coating would be fairly thin and easy to scrape off..!

[Dunkum]

4 hours ago, Krox said:

Aluminium coating would be fairly thin and easy to scrape off..!

I was thinking the opposite of that - an aluminum coating over a metal you could burn is useless because it means there are extra steps involved before you can burn it.  what I was thinking is closer in line with the original proposal, the main caveat is that instead of making the entire earring post out of the burnable metal, you'd just coat the post with something you could burn.  that would stay hidden, but it also has the beenfit that when you've burned through it the whole earring wouldnt just fall off.  there would be less of it available, since you only have a relatively small coating isntead of the whole thing, but allomancy doesn't require a lot of metal for most things, so it should be enough for a burst or two.

[+robardin]

7 hours ago, Krox said:

Do we know this? A metalmind can only have parts of it touch your body, wouldn't a metal piercing be the same? I guess the question would be if it burns outside in (body) or inside out (of body).

The first WoB in the OP says getting "metal into the body in any way is going to work..." Where "to work" means "intermixing the nature of the metal with your soul in the cosmere, your Spiritual entity" as "what gives them that ability."

Unlike with a metalmind, burning a metal physically destroys it:

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Josh

When non-god metals are burned Allomantically, what happens to the metals? Are they crushed into tiny specks? Do they disappear?

Brandon Sanderson

The metals become a key conduit through which the power is delivered. So they are actually sort of vaporized, and the atomic code is a key by which the power is drawn in.

West Jordan signing (Aug. 4, 2011)

So if the mechanics of Allomancy mean pulling net-positive Investiture through a keyed filter (must be the right metal) that is intermixing with one's identity and literally burns it up with the power as a physical side effect, it makes sense that having that filter be usable in the "key sequence" means it needs to be maximally physically intersecting with one's sense of self: being inside the body.

It's also a nice counterpoint to how metal worn on one's body, like non-metalmind jewelry, are no harder to Push or Pull on, but metal inside of  one's body immediately becomes intermingled with the innate Investiture of a living person and thus much harder to use Allomancy on. Like the "old coin in the mouth" trick to hide a coin from ordinary (casual) Steelsight, that Zane used to hide a coin from Vin in one of their "sparring sessions" (and where BoMmed up Wax easily saw through the same move by Suit where he ordinarily wouldn't have).

And if the metal serving as the conduit is only partly in your body, it should be the segment that is inside the body that is bridged first, the way that electricity uses the path of least resistance IRL. So while it's been WoB'ed as possible to Allomantically burn a hemalurgic spike stuck into you, I'd imagine the head of the spike or whatever portion was outside the body eventually falling away.

Here's another WoB about burning a metal stuck through you (hemalurgically or more mundanely) that seems relevant:

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Questioner

Several of my friends play the [Mistborn] tabletop game, and we have a question, so, if you want to burn a metal Allomantically do you actually have to ingest it, or can it just be in your bloodstream, or-?

Brandon Sanderson

If it gets in there somehow, you can use it. 

Questioner

So you can inhale something, or inject something ... what about spikes? Could you like burn a spike that was-?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you could, but not if it's Hemalurgically placed or Hemalurgically charged. But otherwise yes. If it gets in you-- I almost wrote a scene where someone got stabbed through the chest and they burned it. The problem is your metal also has to be of the right allomantic alloy.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

So a Coinshot could possibly burn away a knife stuck into them in a fight, but by implication, only the part actually stuck "in there". (And if the blade were Allomantically pure enough!)

Edited September 21, 2020 by robardin

[+Krox]

1 hour ago, Dunkum said:

I was thinking the opposite of that - an aluminum coating over a metal you could burn is useless because it means there are extra steps involved before you can burn it.  what I was thinking is closer in line with the original proposal, the main caveat is that instead of making the entire earring post out of the burnable metal, you'd just coat the post with something you could burn.  that would stay hidden, but it also has the beenfit that when you've burned through it the whole earring wouldnt just fall off.  there would be less of it available, since you only have a relatively small coating isntead of the whole thing, but allomancy doesn't require a lot of metal for most things, so it should be enough for a burst or two.

That's more genious than I thought of, good thinking..!

Can't quote all of that @robardin, but I get your thinking.
However, I still wonder if the piece of metal is seen as a whole thing or as the atoms it consists of (there are some Cognitive and Spiritual aspects of this we could get into, does a piercing see itself as a whole item or as atom bonded together?)  - and if the former how would it burn?
We do know metals burn outside-in when in your stomach, but then the entire thing is inside you. Would the same go when only part of the metal is inside you?
Can you see only the part of a piercing that is outside the body using Steelsight?

Bah, I have so many questions...
And maybe more than what Brandon has thought of..!

[Dunkum]

9 minutes ago, Krox said:

That's more genious than I thought of, good thinking..!

Can't quote all of that @robardin, but I get your thinking.
However, I still wonder if the piece of metal is seen as a whole thing or as the atoms it consists of (there are some Cognitive and Spiritual aspects of this we could get into, does a piercing see itself as a whole item or as atom bonded together?)  - and if the former how would it burn?
We do know metals burn outside-in when in your stomach, but then the entire thing is inside you. Would the same go when only part of the metal is inside you?
Can you see only the part of a piercing that is outside the body using Steelsight?

Bah, I have so many questions...
And maybe more than what Brandon has thought of..!

it deinitely isn't on a pure atomic level - if it were then base metals in alloys would be burnable separately, and alloys wouldn't make any sense allomantically.  beyond that, I don't know enough about metallurgy or the chemistry of metal alloys to make an informed guess.

[HSuperLee]

I do want to point out, even if you could stick a bunch of metal in your body, some allomantic metals are toxic and having them in not easily burnable amounts can and will cause long term health problems. Ear piercing probably wouldn't do too much, but its not like you'd just want a bunch of mental plates surgically implanted throughout your body. Generally, the human body doesn't like having a bunch of metal in it, and allomancers don't get any kind of special defense against metal toxicity.

[+Krox]

Just now, HSuperLee said:

I do want to point out, even if you could stick a bunch of metal in your body, some allomantic metals are toxic and having them in not easily burnable amounts can and will cause long term health problems. Ear piercing probably wouldn't do too much, but its not like you'd just want a bunch of mental plates surgically implanted throughout your body. Generally, the human body doesn't like having a bunch of metal in it, and allomancers don't get any kind of special defense against metal toxicity.

That is a fair point! The toxicity of most allomantic metals is actually quite high..!