Jofwu Posted September 18, 2020 Report Share Posted September 18, 2020 EDIT: Death by WoB. RIP. It was fun while it lasted. The Cognitive Realm is round. You heard me right. The "flat Shadesmar theory" was good enough for the worldhoppers of ancient times, but we know better. I'm here to prove it. Okay, okay. Hyperbole aside, I'm actually not completely joking here. Apparently @Quantumplation made a "#RoundShadesmarSociety" joke in the livestream on YouTube tonight. After a brief chucke, I had to pause and say, "hol up a minute." Turns out I think the Cognitive Realm is round. Some of you are probably actively opening up your books or loading up Arcanum in the next tab, looking for some reference amid the mountains of evidence that the Cognitive Realm is very much flat. For example: Quote Dirigible's sister Is the Cognitive Realm flat or spherical? Brandon Sanderson The Cognitive Realm is this weird thing, where it's flat, but it's distorted. Dirigible's sister Yeah, 'cause I was going to say, if you make a globe flat... Brandon Sanderson You can walk from one planet to the next. So it's got really weird...the spatial reasoning doesn't work the same way. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quote Dirigible's sister Is the Cognitive Realm flat or spherical? Brandon Sanderson The Cognitive Realm is this weird thing, where it's flat, but it's distorted. Dirigible's sister Yeah, 'cause I was going to say, if you make a globe flat... Brandon Sanderson You can walk from one planet to the next. So it's got really weird...the spatial reasoning doesn't work the same way.
Frustration Posted September 18, 2020 Report Share Posted September 18, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Jofwu said: And the existence of the Cognitive Realm is, in my opinion, a direct consequence of Investiture. It exists because of Investiture. I think you can only have a Cognitive Realm where Investiture exists. Quote MoriWillow If there only existed a single atom in the cosmere, would that atom have a Cognitive aspect? Brandon Sanderson Yes, it probably would. Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 22, 2018) @RShara I did it! I remembered something useful! Edited September 18, 2020 by Frustration 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jofwu Posted September 18, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2020 @Frustration Obviously I don't know what's going on in Brandon's head, but I don't think that implies what you seem to be saying. For one thing, mass IS Investiture in the cosmere. We have a mass-energy-Investiture equivalence principle thing going on. So a one-atom cosmere has Investiture in it. Second, I think it's pretty clear the intent behind the question is more about whether something as small as an atom has a Cognitive aspect, or perhaps whether an atom needs somebody thinking about it in order to have a presence in the Cognitive Realm. I think it's a mistake to interpret this WoB to mean the Realms and Investiture are completely divorced. That's a big leap of interpretation and assumption. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted September 18, 2020 Report Share Posted September 18, 2020 7 minutes ago, Frustration said: @RShara I did it! I remembered something useful! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted September 18, 2020 Report Share Posted September 18, 2020 I've always been for beyond the Cosmere, beyond Adonalsium theories, so I think you've made a solid argument for a finite Cognitive Realm but not much of one for a round Cognitive Realm. Let's see if I can help with that. The Cognitive Realm is shaped by the collective consciousness of the inhabitants of the Cosmere. It is composed of and thus bounded by Investiture, presumably. We have no indication if other Adonalsium-lite beings might be out there, other... energies equivalent to Investiture, or if the space beyond the Cosmere is completely Investiture null. We and inhabitants of Cosmere don't know what things are like beyond the Cosmere. Maybe the nearby galaxies are the cytoverse and Reckonersverse, who knows? But how would one visualize something that they can't reach? On Earth, a common analogy for that across many different cultures was the heavens and the stars. So the Cosmere is surrounded by a multitude of galaxies, other worlds... and they are completely unreachable. They are bounded, on every side, there are worlds out there, but beyond their reach, how might they visualize this? A sky full of stars that they are looking up from their world, the entire Cosmere, surrounded by the universe, and thus their own little corner of the universe is visualized as a sphere. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted September 18, 2020 Report Share Posted September 18, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Jofwu said: @Frustration Obviously I don't know what's going on in Brandon's head, but I don't think that implies what you seem to be saying. For one thing, mass IS Investiture in the cosmere. We have a mass-energy-Investiture equivalence principle thing going on. So a one-atom cosmere has Investiture in it. Second, I think it's pretty clear the intent behind the question is more about whether something as small as an atom has a Cognitive aspect, or perhaps whether an atom needs somebody thinking about it in order to have a presence in the Cognitive Realm. I think it's a mistake to interpret this WoB to mean the Realms and Investiture are completely divorced. That's a big leap of interpretation and assumption. Perhaps, but all the investiture would be in the atom, or directly connected thereto, so I don't think that there would be any left over to create a cognitive realm around it. That would be like arguing that if there was only enough energy in the universe to create one atom, that the atom could possibly be at a temperature besides absolute zero. At least to my understanding, based on the fact that he says it might have a cognitive aspect, I interpret as the cognitive realm is still there, just as the physical realm is, the atom is just the only thing there, if what you propose is true, then the only cognitive realm would be that atom. 7 minutes ago, RShara said: Thanks Edited September 18, 2020 by Frustration 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jofwu Posted September 18, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, Frustration said: Perhaps, but all the investiture would be in the atom, or directly connected thereto, so I don't think that there would be any left over to create a cognitive realm around it. Ah. I don't think you can split it like that. It's a package deal. Just like... a gravitational field is the natural consequence of having energy there. It doesn't make sense to say you have enough energy to make an atom but not enough energy to also let it produce a gravitational field. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted September 18, 2020 Report Share Posted September 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, Jofwu said: Ah. I don't think you can split it like that. It's a package deal. Just like... a gravitational field is the natural consequence of having energy there. It doesn't make sense to say you have enough energy to make an atom but not enough energy to also let it produce a gravitational field. And the Physical realm? does it only exist because there is stuff in it? Perhaps you're right, I can't disprove it, but I don't think that a physical realm could exist where a cognitive couldn't. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jofwu Posted September 18, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2020 "Why does physical space exist?" is definitely a question I am 100% unqualified to answer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted September 18, 2020 Report Share Posted September 18, 2020 1 minute ago, Jofwu said: "Why does physical space exist?" is definitely a question I am 100% unqualified to answer. but "why cognitive space exists?" is? no I get you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted September 18, 2020 Report Share Posted September 18, 2020 Not sure which side this WoB helps, but it's an interesting and relevant one, I think. Quote Questioner I want to ask how were the Realms created and does their creation have anything to do with Adonalsium and the Shattering? Brandon Sanderson So, good question. The Realms predate the Shattering of Adonalsium and are part of the fundamental physics of the cosmere. So they would have been created at the equivalent of the cosmere Big Bang when time was created and things like that. ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted September 18, 2020 Report Share Posted September 18, 2020 (edited) Well let us examine this in the context of Lucretius's javelin argument. Quote Suppose, however, for a moment, all existing space to be bounded, and that a man runs forward to the uttermost borders, and stands upon the last verge of things, and then hurls forward a winged javelin,— suppose you that the dart, when hurled by the vivid force, shall take its way to the point the darter aimed at, or that something will take its stand in the path of its flight, and arrest it? For one or other of these things must happen. There is a dilemma here that you never can escape from If you stand on the edge of the cosmere (in shadesmar) and throw a javelin either you will hit some kind of wall or your javelin will keep going forever. I do think some kind of wall could exist but I suppose the CR being circular is an equally valid explanation. Edited September 18, 2020 by Karger 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jofwu Posted September 18, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2020 Found this WoB today: Quote XS-Terrain What are the geometric properties of Shadesmar? Is it curved, or is it a Euclidean Plane? Brandon Sanderson It's like a single, infinite plane. XS-Terrain So it extends forever. Brandon Sanderson Well... Kind of. Kind of yes. The problem is, what people don’t think about doesn’t really appear there, in Shadesmar, so the edges are weird. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quote XS-Terrain What are the geometric properties of Shadesmar? Is it curved, or is it a Euclidean Plane? Brandon Sanderson It's like a single, infinite plane. XS-Terrain So it extends forever. Brandon Sanderson Well... Kind of. Kind of yes. The problem is, what people don’t think about doesn’t really appear there, in Shadesmar, so the edges are weird.
+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine Posted September 18, 2020 Report Share Posted September 18, 2020 (edited) @Jofwu, the fact that the CR is described as an infinite plane doesn't preclude it from being a continous topology which can be traversed in infinite paths. Say you have a torus that is very large (like a planet sized donut), and your movements are confined to the surface. To you the expanse you are walking across would seem flat, but there are an infinite number of directions you can walk and never encounter an edge because it's a continuous topology. The surface of a sphere would likewise be a continous topology, but a topology of a different form I think is necessary for encompassing the predominant feature of the CR, namely the expansion and contraction of the surface plane based on densities of thought. From that WOB you quoted I think Brandon's idea of an infinite plane is just that the plane would seem infinite for someone traversing it. To say that the plane has edges is to acknowledge that it's not truly infinite. To say that these edges are weird I think is a hint at the mechanics of how this works, namely that one apparent edge of the plane is connected to the same plane at a different point. I have a post where I discuss the nature of the cognitive realm , and I haven't seen any WOBs that directly contradict this assessment. Edited September 18, 2020 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine Duh, I meant continous, not contiguous. This has been fixed, and the citizens of the giant donut shaped planet in Iota Cancri have been mollified. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jofwu Posted September 21, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2020 On 9/18/2020 at 6:39 PM, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: I have a post where I discuss the nature of the cognitive realm , and I haven't seen any WOBs that directly contradict this assessment. Stoked to read it! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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