Jump to content

RoW Chapter 11 Discussion


Jofwu

Recommended Posts

26 minutes ago, Zea mays said:

How did Kaladin not notice? Is my boy gender-blind or just uber-mad "woke"?

Maybe it is related to the fact that Leshwi is inhabiting a Singer's body, where Kaladin has had minimal interaction with them as a whole and as such would not really know what to look for to take a guess.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Realmatic Shadow said:

Maybe it is related to the fact that Leshwi is inhabiting a Singer's body, where Kaladin has had minimal interaction with them as a whole and as such would not really know what to look for to take a guess.

Malen and Femalen bodies should be a lot harder to distinguish than male and female, yeah. I'd guess both look kind of androgynous, even after being used to Singer genders and sexes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

Malen and Femalen bodies should be a lot harder to distinguish than male and female, yeah. I'd guess both look kind of androgynous, even after being used to Singer genders and sexes.

We also see that the Fused inhabiting the body cause some change in the body to better align with their Identity. This probably further muddies the ability to distinguish them, unless you're in a position like Venli where you can see Leshwi shaving her chin of any growth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But... but that implies Leshwi had a bit of a stubble when she fought Kaladin.

He had no problems, (none are mentioned in his chapters) telling malen and femalen singers apart when he was hanging out with the runaway slaves in the beginning of Oathbringer. And he had to notice enough detail to recognize Leshwi as Leshwi in whatever body she was inhabiting. :huh:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Zea mays said:

I can't get over this Leshwi being in a male-en body in this incarnation. How did Kaladin not notice? Is my boy gender-blind or just uber-mad "woke"?

 

He can  recognize Leshwi, no matter what new body she takes, but he doesn't notice anything about the specific body. 

It does seem like Brandon is trying quite hard to demonstrate how progressive his views are regarding gender and biological sex.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe the part at the end has to do with the mission to get more honorspren that Kaladin and co. are about to go on. Possibly Odium knows of Syl's status as the ancient daughter which could possibly make her some sort of queen of the honorspren that are left. The honorspren could help clear shadesmar of the voidspren if recruited fully to the side of the knights radiant and supply team honor with more windrunners as well as some valuable information.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

It does seem like Brandon is trying quite hard to demonstrate how progressive his views are regarding gender and biological sex.

Funny how logical errors crop up when you focus on politics instead of story. It is Brandon’s book though so he can write what he wants. 

Edited by jamskinner
Add clarification
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

It does seem like Brandon is trying quite hard to demonstrate how progressive his views are regarding gender and biological sex.

13 minutes ago, jamskinner said:

Funny how logical errors crop up when you focus on politics instead of story. It is Brandon’s book though so he can write what he wants. 

Or alternatively, Kaladin just didn't notice the stubble or the malen body. Leshwi looks like Leshwi regardless of body with some variation depending on body. I myself am an example of someone who can shave one morning and by afternoon have stubble, in the hours of travel to and from it could have grown to a noticeable length by the time she returned to the city. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Zea mays said:

I can't get over this Leshwi being in a male-en body in this incarnation. How did Kaladin not notice? Is my boy gender-blind or just uber-mad "woke"?

 

He can  recognize Leshwi, no matter what new body she takes, but he doesn't notice anything about the specific body. 

I think that's the thing. He's looking for one particular Fused. He sees her. He's probably fought her in half a dozen bodies. He knows it's her. It would be unrealistic to say "oh, hmm, she has a malen body now"...why?

Also, maybe he doesn't care at all what gender someone is that he's fighting? Why would he pause to even care? Why would this be at all relevant to any interaction they had? Like...I can't even envision the relevancy of the observation.

The relevancy of Venli pointing it out to us is Singer/Fused world building, and that's why it's discussed. But it's not relevant to *Kal*.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Bliev said:

I think that's the thing. He's looking for one particular Fused. He sees her. He's probably fought her in half a dozen bodies. He knows it's her. It would be unrealistic to say "oh, hmm, she has a malen body now"...why?

Also, maybe he doesn't care at all what gender someone is that he's fighting? Why would he pause to even care? Why would this be at all relevant to any interaction they had? Like...I can't even envision the relevancy of the observation.

The relevancy of Venli pointing it out to us is Singer/Fused world building, and that's why it's discussed. But it's not relevant to *Kal*.

How does he know she’s a her?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Bliev said:

I think that's the thing. He's looking for one particular Fused. He sees her. He's probably fought her in half a dozen bodies. He knows it's her. It would be unrealistic to say "oh, hmm, she has a malen body now"...why?

Also, maybe he doesn't care at all what gender someone is that he's fighting? Why would he pause to even care? Why would this be at all relevant to any interaction they had? Like...I can't even envision the relevancy of the observation.

The relevancy of Venli pointing it out to us is Singer/Fused world building, and that's why it's discussed. But it's not relevant to *Kal*.

This is a good point. After all, Kal has fought and killed female Listeners way back in WoK. He never paused to think "this is a woman"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, jamskinner said:

How does he know she’s a her?

Good point. He probably doesn't. Nor would he care. But *we* know Leshwi is female. Alternatively, they've gathered intel on the main Fused.

Regardless, it's an irrelevant detail. Let's not be all Vorin and weird about gender roles up in here. lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

This is a good point. After all, Kal has fought and killed female Listeners way back in WoK. He never paused to think "this is a woman"

I mean, I don't know if I've ever read a war book, where they're in the heat of battle, and a character stops to consider the gender of the enemy they're facing on the other side. Granted, in most of these books the warriors are men (and most of the characters are men) so maybe it's just a given. But here, given the diversity of the fighters on all sides, it wouldn't stand out at all to have anyone of any gender on the battlefield. All hands on deck, so to speak.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I also wonder why it was said that the heavenly ones have been able to resist going insane more than other orders?!

why? Why would a repeated cycle of desolations and life and death, affect them any less as compared to others? 
Is it not the process itself that makes them go insane? 
Is it that the passions of different brands of fused vary and the passions decide which fused is which order? Like oaths decide for KRs. 
Is it that some orders are more close to Odium than others? So is it that the ones closer to odium, have a higher mental deterioration rate? 
So, do the Shanay-ims really have a shred of honor in them and it is this, the “not complete cut-off from honor” that Has allowed them to Retain their mental faculties more than others. As in, that they are not as consumed by hatred as the others have been?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Bliev said:

Good point. He probably doesn't. Nor would he care. But *we* know Leshwi is female. Alternatively, they've gathered intel on the main Fused.

Regardless, it's an irrelevant detail. Let's not be all Vorin and weird about gender roles up in here. lol

Please don’t tell me how to think. Your free to feel how you want. Allow me the same. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll find chapters eventually, but I think there was a bit about how slight sexual dimorphism was among singers. I think it's in Way of Kings. One of the characters (Kaladin? Dalinar? Adolin?) was wondering why the parshendi fought in pairs, and then he noticed slight differences within pairs, which he attributed to sexual dimorphism.

As for recognizing Leshwi, I think there's a part in Oathbringer where Moash (a human) differentiates her from others by recognizing the patterns and the colors on her body (which we know Fused can keep even when they get a new body).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/15/2020 at 7:13 PM, Karger said:

Good question.  Also the question.  Where does the voidlight come from?

The various extracts regarding the False Desolation gives me the impression that Voidlight was directly distributed by Odium via Connection from the Spiritual Realm, then during the False Desolation, Ba-Ado-Mishram somehow started doing the same.

I know the main idea behind the question is whether or not the Everstorm distributes Voidlight like the Highstorm distributes Stormlight. In Oathbringer, spheres left out during the Everstorm were not filled with Voidlight and from what we've seen in the Rhythm of War preview chapters, the Fused apparently need to withdraw to refuel. I posed this question on the Discord once, were Gavilar's black spheres actually like Rosharan spheres at all? Does Voidlight need a different storage medium than Stormlight?

Edited by Honorless
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Zea mays said:

I can't get over this Leshwi being in a male-en body in this incarnation. How did Kaladin not notice? Is my boy gender-blind or just uber-mad "woke"?

 

He can  recognize Leshwi, no matter what new body she takes, but he doesn't notice anything about the specific body. 

I think ma boy Kal just see people for who they are, not for how they look like. 

Also they probably fough so many times he got used to seeing her without noticing the body she use.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Harbour said:

I think ma boy Kal just see people for who they are, not for how they look like. 

Also they probably fough so many times he got used to seeing her without noticing the body she use.

Possibly.

Maybe his view have evolved from  the beginning of OB when he bluntly assumed Lyn just wanted to be a scribe and had some qualms about being brutal with a 'girl' spear. Maybe he has internalized some lessons from Rlain about the norms of Listener society.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Zea mays said:

I can't get over this Leshwi being in a male-en body in this incarnation. How did Kaladin not notice? Is my boy gender-blind or just uber-mad "woke"?

 

He can  recognize Leshwi, no matter what new body she takes, but he doesn't notice anything about the specific body. 

During the War of Reckoning for however many years on the Shattered Plains, the Alethi didn't figure out that the war pairs were usually composed of a malen & femalen. I think humans just aren't good at distinguishing between the Parsh genders. They remember them by their carapace.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great chapter!  I'm glad we're getting more exploration of the Singer side.   Is anyone else getting a strong "Imperial Seanchan" flavor from Singer culture?

Also, it struck me that maybe what Venli is doing now - becoming a Willshaper and rebelling against Odium - is exactly what a splinter of the pro-Odium ancient humans did, many years ago.  And possibly Odium's replacement strategy was to court and corrupt susceptible Singers with resentment, exactly the same way that Odium recruited Moash (and possibly Aesudan).   

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really hope the next chapter is another Venli chapter. I really want to know what has Leshwi so worried. 

I like how Venli's arc is looking so far. I wonder how long she's going to stay hidden working for the Fused. Seems to me like asking for the Fused approval for a non-Odium listener group is pretty naive. But then again Brandon has put a lot of effort into showing us that the Fused are not incarnations of pure evil but still people, so who knows. They did specifically say they fight this war for their descendants, and will finally rest when they have won. Maybe some of the Fused could be swayed but big O for sure would not care for it. 

Venli's ability to check Shadesmar for all the different types of spren and Fused is really cool. That's a fun trick for the leader of a hidden rebellion. I kind of want her to come across Sja-Anat by accident while peeking into the CR and for the Unmade to start working with her.

As cool as instant communication through humming rhythms is, I'm a little disappointed that we don't get any direct dialogue from Timbre. The spren personalities are all so different and unique, it just feels like Timbre is getting sold short a bit when Venli has to translate the Rhythms to the reader.

I loved the lore about Lezian the Pursuer. I hope he's a recurring villian. 

Edited by Ciridae
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In relation to kal not noticing the malen body it’s likely that the Very slight sex differences between sex’s in parshmen plus the small changes made to the body make it indistinguishable, like for a example a transgender person who has been on hormone therapy is pretty only noticeable if you really look at least in my experience, since kaladin was looking for her patterns he didn’t notice or didn’t care.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Ciridae said:

I really hope the next chspter is another Venli chapter. I really want to know what has Leshwi worried. 

I like how Venli's arc is looking so far. I wonder for how long she's going to stay hidden working for the Fused. Seems to me like asking for the Fused approval for a non-Odium listener group is pretty naive. But then again Brandon has put a lot of effort into showing us that the Fused are not incarnations of pure evil but still people, so who knows. They did specifically say they fight this war for their descendants, and will finally rest when they have won. Maybe some of the Fused could be swayed but big O for sure would not care for it. 

Venli's ability to check Shadesmar for all the different types of spren and Fused is really cool. That's a fun trick for the leader of a hidden rebellion. 

As cool as instant communication through humming rhythms is, I'm a little disappointed that we don't get any direct dialogue from Timbre. The spren personalities are all so different and unique, it just feels like Timbre is getting sold short a bit when Venli has to translate the Rhythms to the reader.

I loved the lore about Lezian the Pursuer. I hope he's a recurring villian. 

I agree but I am very curious as to how kaladin and leshwi’s relationship is going to work moving forward, when they fought we had an instant connection built between them and I’m interested to see how that will contribute.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...