Jofwu

RoW Chapter 11 Discussion

206 posts in this topic

13 minutes ago, robardin said:

Yes, but this could be a lack of opportunity.

How does that not apply to all Radiants. Sure Timbre knows that the Knights Radiant of yore did not use Voidlight. But was that because they lacked enough to try it out, or were they incapable?

13 minutes ago, robardin said:

I mean, he DOES have access, with Stormlight, to two Surges, so it's not like he is using Stormlight for Regrowth and Voidlight for Illumination. It's just that his (Stormlight powered) Illumination is... Enlightened.

We have not seen how good his Illumination becomes when he gets Voidlight or how much better his Futuresight turns.

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5 minutes ago, Karger said:

However since normal radiants can't use voidlight at all(as far as we know anyway) this also implies that transpiration does not normally function this way

No, it doesn't.

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

It also begs the question of why cohesion can't be used fueled by voidlight if transportation can.

Nothing begs this question. You're making an assumption based on a counterintuitive conclusion that you've already settled on.

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30 minutes ago, Shardsplinter said:

So, I know it's not the most important thing in the chapter, but I was really happy to see Yokska is alright (or as alright as one can be when your city has been Taken over and you've been pretty much inslaved). Hope her husband is OK too( or as OK as one can... well, you get the idea) Wonder if She'll have some rol to play on the future( maybe She'll help Venli see that some humans can be trusted, help her with her resistence/rebellion and in the future serve as a bridge to Adolin and our MCs?)

Regardless I just love the way Brandon doesn't forget about any side charachter and I'm a huge fan of seemingly unimportant charachters getting a little bit more relevance in the future.

From reading Brandon's annotations, it sounds like this was something he got from reading Wheel of Time, where characters that had a minor role interacting with the main characters at one point, would often show up again and meet different main characters. I think he uses this sort of writing well, and it makes the world of Roshar feel a bit more holistic, though if I weren't following fan forums, I'd probably never recognize most of these characters.

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So now I want to know, what’s leshwi’s angle. We thought she could be manipulating kaladin but apparently it’s clear to those around her that she has some strange fascination with him and to. A lesser extent the other wind runners. Why?

additionally what happened to change the war and why was leshwi worried she would not get to fight kaladin again. What’s happening, I suspect a similar thing that happens to kaladin will happen to leshwi in that she may be ordered to go to total war and give no quarter or something like that.

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18 minutes ago, psc92 said:

Nothing begs this question. You're making an assumption based on a counterintuitive conclusion that you've already settled on.

I do not understand.  If we assume that the CR view Venli manages is a direct result of her fueling transportation with voidlight then it begs the question "why not do the same with cohesion" does it not?  This implies to me at least that she is doing something else.

18 minutes ago, psc92 said:

No, it doesn't.

There is an observable difference between radiant and shanay-im gravitation.

Edited by Karger
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Shllan mentioned that she fulfilled all the missions given to her by the ghostblood. Maybe the big change in the war is the relevation that sja anat switch sides? That was her last mission in OB

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16 minutes ago, Karger said:

I do not understand.  If we assume that the CR view Venli manages is a direct result of her fueling transportation with voidlight then it begs the question "why not do the same with cohesion" does it not?

If. Technically it is obviously true that she is viewing the CR with voidlight. Yet the conclusion that she must do it with voidlight is not unavoidable. Using voidlight is an advantage to her.

  • She can renew it without waiting for a Highstorm
  • Her eyes stay red
  • Many Fused carry spheres with Voidlight

Cohesion may just be inherently "louder" than using Transportation at minimum level. We know the Surgers are unequal in that regard.

16 minutes ago, Karger said:

There is an observable difference between radiant and shanay-im gravitation.

Yes. For which we have two possible explanations

  • different fuel
  • different mechanism
  • a combination thereof

Yes, it does raise the question why the Screamers do not react to the Fused. Again we have multiple causes, which we have little data to tell apart:

  • the fuel
  • the mechanism (Fused just have a different rhythm when they Surgebind)
  • the Screamers can see the Fused soul at a range comparable to their detection in the CR and are trained to leave them (and the Regals) alone
42 minutes ago, Valigus said:

why was leshwi worried she would not get to fight kaladin again.

She may have known the plan to drive him to suicide.

Or Lezian the Pursuer has quite a reputation.

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More information about singers. 

So, the listeners take on forms by bonding with the regular non-sapient (autocorrect wanted non-Sanderson) spren. For example, "gravitationspren to take workform," from this chapter. 

Regal forms, bond to non-sapient Voidspren, such as stormspren for Stormform, and I don't think Venli's Voidspren type has been named.

Extrapolating from Venli, who is very possibly an exception, if a singer bonds a KR spren, their form doesn't change. (Or maybe it does and the Envoyform is interfering. Or maybe it changes at a higher bond level.)

But I lean towards the KR spren bond being an addition rather a replacement of the form-spren. ( Just as another contrast to the Voidspren.)

Fused, however are very different. In a way, it's an inversion of the spren + listener gemheart dynamic. The soul of the Fused - the ancient singer acts as a spren, in a way. Heavenly Ones are always Heavenly Ones, no matter what the Parshendi they took over was. Thus, the soul of these ancient singers defines the form they have. In addition, I don't think Fused CAN change forms. (In this way, I think they are an ultimate betrayal of singer-hood)

Hmm. If a regular singer dies, what happens to the spren? It's released, right? If so, what does a cognitive shadow of a singer look like? I mean, it's the soul of the singer, but not bonded to a spren, yet I don't think it's in slaveform, without Identity. 

My theory: the souls of those ancient singers FUSED with the spren in their gemhearts that gave them power. (I was going to say melded, but fused fits too. ;) )

So that's why the Fused can take over Parshendi bodies, in an Everstorm, they are part spren.

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3 hours ago, Honorless said:

7) title of He Who Quiets? 

Vyre/Moash.  Refer the end of OB.

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Are the "secretspren" the same thing as the yellow "screamer" spren that were seen in Kholinar before its fall?

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I could be mistaken, but didn’t Venli say she used her Regal form/voidspren to view the CR?

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7 minutes ago, robardin said:

Are the "secretspren" the same thing as the yellow "screamer" spren that were seen in Kholinar before its fall?

I'm wondering the same thing, it certainly seems so from what Venli said in this chapter (unless there are multiple subtypes of these spren too)

17 minutes ago, Wax said:

Vyre/Moash.  Refer the end of OB.

I know who it refers to but I thought it was a symbolic renaming not a "title"

Edited by Honorless
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14 minutes ago, yulerule said:

Fused, however are very different. In a way, it's an inversion of the spren + listener gemheart dynamic. The soul of the Fused - the ancient singer acts as a spren, in a way. Heavenly Ones are always Heavenly Ones, no matter what the Parshendi they took over was. Thus, the soul of these ancient singers defines the form they have. In addition, I don't think Fused CAN change forms. (In this way, I think they are an ultimate betrayal of singer-hood)

Hmm. If a regular singer dies, what happens to the spren? It's released, right? If so, what does a cognitive shadow of a singer look like? I mean, it's the soul of the singer, but not bonded to a spren, yet I don't think it's in slaveform, without Identity. 

My theory: the souls of those ancient singers FUSED with the spren in their gemhearts that gave them power. (I was going to say melded, but fused fits too. ;) )

So that's why the Fused can take over Parshendi bodies, in an Everstorm, they are part spren.

That's basically how I read it: the Fused have essentially become a fusion of a singer's cognitive shadow and a voidspren, one that can live in a singer's gemheart, where the Identity as a singer themselves (e.g., "I am Leshwi") has no room to share in the gemheart for that of the original singer. The Fused, effectively, ARE the new "form" taken on by the erstwhile singer.

I find it interesting how many of the Fused are now "insane". What proportion? And what happens to them? It seems unlikely that they'll get killed if they're too insane to fight and to die? We have seen ones just sitting there giggling or something, right?

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14 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Yet the conclusion that she must do it with voidlight is not unavoidable

In fact the conclusion seems pretty obviously false. 

15 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Cohesion may just be inherently "louder" than using Transportation at minimum level. We know the Surgers are unequal in that regard.

That is possible but if true it implies that she could use stormlight rather then voidlight unless fueling with voidlight is also quiter.

17 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

the Screamers can see the Fused soul at a range comparable to their detection in the CR and are trained to leave them (and the Regals) alone

I think we can reject this one.  A fused that was acting but behind enough interference to avoid positive identification would create a false positive.  Also if they could figure this one they could also show them how to identify fabrails.

7 minutes ago, robardin said:

Are the "secretspren" the same thing as the yellow "screamer" spren that were seen in Kholinar before its fall?

Almost certainly.

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4 minutes ago, robardin said:

I find it interesting how many of the Fused are now "insane". What proportion? And what happens to them? It seems unlikely that they'll get killed if they're too insane to fight and to die? We have seen ones just sitting there giggling or something, right?

I have a feeling Odium can directly control them similar to how (spoilers for Mistborn)

Spoiler

Ruin did in Hero of Ages with the Inquisitors. The fact that they're insane likely means their souls are cracked which means they might be open to outside influence. If that is the case, I wonder if a Soother could control a Fused like they could Hemalurgic constructs. Now I'm just imagining Hoid with an army of insane Fused at his beck and call...

 

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9 minutes ago, Karger said:

I think we can reject this one.  A fused that was acting but behind enough interference to avoid positive identification would create a false positive.  Also if they could figure this one they could also show them how to identify fabrails.

I think it's best to think of what the secretspren do as something very similar to Allomantic Bronze. (Seeking)

If you're good with Bronze, you can tell the difference between different types of kinetic investure. It's not merely a question of whether or not the Fused's use of surges is "quiet" or not if the secretspren can be trained to recognized their signature. They don't have to be indiscriminate in choosing which instances of surgebinding or fabrials to report.

That's not to say that I don't think it's possible for the Fused to be more quiet. I just think we should also consider this avenue; that the secretspren can detect both, but that there is enough of a difference in signature (even when Venli uses voidlight) to distinguish them.

 

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Leshwi's comment on Kaladin was interesting

Quote

Leshwi finished her fruit before giving a reply. “He was there,” Leshwi said. “And so was his spren, though she did not appear to me. We fought. No conclusion. Though I fear I might not have a chance to face him again.”

Based on her not expecting not to face him again, she was probably aware of Moash (+/- an Unmade) dropping the psychic despair assault on Kaladin.

She also seems unusually interested in seeing Syl.  Why would she expect Syl to choose to appear for her?

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3 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I think so! 

I know who it refers to but I thought it was a symbolic renaming not a "title"

Hmmm. You don't suppose this is a re-used name of a lost (to insanity) Fused ... Or even the Thunderclast that was Nightblooded away?

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11 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Based on her not expecting not to face him again, she was probably aware of Moash (+/- an Unmade) dropping the psychic despair assault on Kaladin.

That's a possibility, but looking at the rest of the passage:

Quote

“He was there,” Leshwi said. “And so was his spren, though she did not appear to me. We fought. No conclusion. Though I fear I might not have a chance to face him again.”

Venli hummed to Craving, to indicate her curiosity.

“He killed Lezian, the Pursuer.”

As I've said before, I think that "He killed Lezian, the Pursuer" is being supplied as an explanation to Venli for why Leshwi fears she "might not have a chance to face him again." Lezian is going to take revenge, and either Leshwi thinks this means Kaladin is as good as dead, or there is some sort of system where Leshwi has to defer to Lezian and let him hunt Kaladin without her interference.

16 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

She also seems unusually interested in seeing Syl.  Why would she expect Syl to choose to appear for her?

Anyway I'm mostly replying here to shamelessly direct you towards my new theory:

 

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12 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Leshwi's comment on Kaladin was interesting

Based on her not expecting not to face him again, she was probably aware of Moash (+/- an Unmade) dropping the psychic despair assault on Kaladin.

She also seems unusually interested in seeing Syl.  Why would she expect Syl to choose to appear for her?

I noticed that too. "[His spren] did not appear to me." Did that mean this time, like she's seen Syl before?

I mean, Syl was there in their fight - in her physical form as a Blade - so that's not what she meant.

As for my theory after Ch. 10 that Leshwi was playing some kind of deep/long head game with Kaladin, from her conversation with Venli that doesn't appear to be the case. She doesn't use whatever Rhythm would communicate "rubbing one's hands together in glee, or cackling while twirling a moustache" about manipulating Kaladin into the burning manor; and Venli reflects that "most of the shanay-im disliked such physical punishments [as whipping servants]", which does seem to reinforce a certain kindred-ness of spirit to the Windrunners.

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Quote

“A human will not do,” Leshwi said. “To elevate this one would be to say our people are not good enough. In any case, tell her to stand up and meet my eyes. So many of these are cremlings.”

Maybe it's just a crazy idea but, why did leshwi say when she met the tailorist, that so many of these are cremlings? maybe the sleepless are trying to infiltrate the fused structure, although thinking about it more, it maybe is just an insult and that's all

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3 hours ago, Karger said:

Does it?  Couldn't it just be the amplification of Venli's natural abilities?  Even Kaladin sees some shadesmar visions.

Willshapers do have the Transportation surge, which would allow them to look into Shadesmare like the Elsecallers

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I wonder why the fused didn't harry bridge four all the way back to radiant territory.  It's definitely a sitting duck target, a couple firebombs should make short work of it.

Edited by Kuram
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9 hours ago, robardin said:

 Or even the Thunderclast that was Nightblooded away?

That one's name was Yushah not Vyre, so probably not. This moniker... I think it might come from a Voidbinder, just a feeling

Edited by Honorless
typo
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This chapter got me interested in Mosh again, and what's up with his new Fused title and what does it mean?

 

He Who Quiets Jezrien???

 

Which unknown 11th herald did the He Who Quiets kill during the last desolation and what sexy herald power did that honorblade possess?

 

this raises many questions

 

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