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RoW Chapter 11 Discussion

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“He was there,” Leshwi said. “And so was his spren, though she did not appear to me. We fought. No conclusion. Though I fear I might not have a chance to face him again.”

Venli hummed to Craving, to indicate her curiosity.

“He killed Lezian, the Pursuer.”

“I do not know that name,” Venli said. With that title, the creature must be one of the Fused. As beings thousands of years old, each one had a lore and history long enough to fill books. It angered them that no one knew them individually this time around.

Indeed, Leshwi spoke to Derision when she replied, “You will. He is newly reawakened, but always worms his way into the stories and minds of mortals. He takes great pride in it.”

Leshwi doesn’t think she’ll get to fight Kaladin again, why is that? She can’t already know about his removal from the field.

I think that the phrasing here—with Leshwi replying to Venli’s attunement of Curiosity—is meant to imply that Lezian is the reason Leshwi thinks she won’t be able to fight Kaladin. Lezian is a creature of pride, and probably wants vengeance. I bet he’ll be seeking Kaladin out, and he doesn’t have the Heavenly One’s aversion to attacking non-combatants so Kal will be forced to fight him despite being off the battlefield.

I also want to know why Leshwi is interested in Syl, and says she didn’t show herself despite the fact that she fought against a Sylblade. Leshwi wants to see he in spren form? But she doesn’t ask her to show herself?

Maybe it used to be some sort of tradition for Honorspren to show themselves to the Heavenly Ones as a part of their respectful duel, one which is now lost?

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@Harrycrapper, I agree

@Karger, that's interesting... I wonder if it might be related to this phenomenon:

Quote

Questioner

What's with Kaladin being special with his oaths that he explodes with power every time he says it?

Brandon Sanderson

That is a function of Windrunners being very close to Bondsmiths, which has certain effects.

Questioner

Would other Windrunners also do that, as well?

Brandon Sanderson

Yep.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

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I 100% think that the group of spren that Venli was in contact with was the Honor Spren. It would answer the question of why Honor spren have stopped bonding with human knights radiant and would lead to a lot of interesting interactions between human and parsh wind runners. Possibly the spren considering Rlain could reject him and then one of the honor spren who have rejected humanity could bond with him, leading to a conflict of interests 

Edited by Justin
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5 minutes ago, Karger said:

Except usually it is in the preview of transformation.

There is no reason why Transportation wouldn't do the same.

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

Note that she does not draw in stormlight when doing so.

She draws in Voidlight right before doing it. 

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She drew a bit of Voidlight from a sphere in her pocket. She could use either of the two types of Light: the strange Voidlight Odium provided, or the old Stormlight of Honor. From what Timbre said, this was new—whatever Venli was doing, it hadn’t been done before.

Eshonai would have been excited by that idea, so Venli tried to take strength from memories of her sister. Using that Light, she peeked into Shadesmar: the Cognitive Realm.

 

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She could use either of the two types of Light: the strange Voidlight Odium provided, or the old Stormlight of Honor. From what Timbre said, this was new—whatever Venli was doing, it hadn’t been done before.

Ah...mixing Investiture from different Shards. The 17th Shard isn't going to be happy with this...

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Shumin’s soul was as Venli expected: a common singer soul bonded to a small gravitationspren to take workform.

Shumin's, shall we say, "spunk" and willingness to join a violent revolt is all the more notable when you remember that one of workforms quirks is a tendency to avoid conflict.

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And above them? Mysterious creatures like the thunderclasts and the Unmade. Souls more like spren than people.

So it's been hinted at before, but this line seems to indicate pretty strongly that the Unmade were originally cognitive shadows.

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3 minutes ago, psc92 said:

She draws in Voidlight right before doing it. 

This implies that she is using abilities tied to her regal status.  If she could fuel all her radiant abilities with voidlight she would not have to worry about the screamers.

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49 minutes ago, Innovation said:

Human bonded to a Truespren: Stormlight.

Human bonded to a corrupted Truespren: Stormlight. Maybe voidlight

Singer bonded to a Truespren and containing a voidspren in her gemheart: Voidlight and Stormlight. 

Signer bonded to a cognizant Voidspren: Voidlight.

All we have left see is a Singer bonded to a corrupted Truespren and human bonded to a Voidspren, which should both allow intake of Stormlight and Voidlight. 

Changes made by me in bold.

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Yes, finally some Venli :D

 

Neat chapter. Refreshing to see the Willshaper order born among the Singers and not humans

Maybe other spren are willing to give the singers a chance to fight against Odium? So far we didn't see any human Stoneward and the only Elsecaller is Jasnah, maybe those orders can give the singers a chance 

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3 minutes ago, Djerf said:

Changes made by me in bold.

I really don’t think containing a Voidspren has anything to do with the ability to draw in Voidlight. 

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YES! My theory of a third faction of listeners was right!

It's cool to see Venli building her own pseudo-rebellion, I like that the listeners are able to maintain agency in obtaining freedom instead of being forced to rely on humans, she's becoming a proper Willshaper. I'm also just really excited to see more chapters focusing on the singers/listeners as well, and hopefully maybe some more Radiants from this as well.

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16 minutes ago, Karger said:

This implies that she is using abilities tied to her regal status.  If she could fuel all her radiant abilities with voidlight she would not have to worry about the screamers.

"Using that Light, she peeked into Shadesmar: the Cognitive Realm. Timbre pulsed to Concern. They’d tested Venli’s other power—the ability to mold stone—only once, and it had drawn secretspren. A kind of specialized spren that flew through the city, watching for signs of Knights Radiant using their powers". I don't think her Shadesmar sight is tied to Envoyform - as far as we know it just works as a translator.

Edited by Inky
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This looks like a major setback to the Lightweavers. There must be at least one kind of Fused who can look into Shadesmar. They can tell humans and Singers apart.

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Awesome chapter.  Thoughts:

I was right that Venli wants to create a third faction - opposed to both humans and Odium.  Woo, at least one idea I had was right!

Lezian the Pursuer - This must be the teleporting Fused that Kaladin killed.  Sounds like this guy is going to hold a grudge, it will probably come up again.

Really interesting that some spren have decided to choose to bond with Singers instead of humans.  Makes total sense.  Seeing that reaction, I wonder if Venli could persuade Nale to join her faction?  I think he would join it, if he knew about it.  He doesn't want to support Odium, only the Singers.

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18 minutes ago, Innovation said:

I really don’t think containing a Voidspren has anything to do with the ability to draw in Voidlight. 

Well I can't think of a reason a normal singer and a normal Truespren would have access to voidlight nor the ability to use it, unless of course it doesn't really matter for surgebinding as a whole which could certainly be true. 

The way I see it is that bonding a voidspren gave Venli a form of power that was of Odium and bonding Timbre made her a Radiant.

 

Edit:

Another thought I had is that it is interesting to compare Timbre and Yunfah from last chapter.

No, Syl said. He is angry at your repeated suggestion he bond one of the enemies

Yunfah got angry at the very idea to bond "the enemy" while according to this chapter there's at least a whole faction of Willshaper spren willing to bond Listeners.

Edited by Djerf
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Willshapers share the Transportation surge with Elsecallers like Jasnah.  Said surge lets them gaze into Shadesmar, or when fully expressed transport entirely to the Cognitive realm.

Shallan and the Lightweavers can also peak into Shadesmar, however in their case it is a function of Soulcasting (also shared with Elsecallers). They can't move realms at will though, just peak into Shadesmar (Jasnah kind of mentions this at the end of Oathbringer).

 

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6 minutes ago, Karger said:

This implies that she is using abilities tied to her regal status.  If she could fuel all her radiant abilities with voidlight she would not have to worry about the screamers.

The screamers are detecting Radiants using Surgebinding, there is no reason to believe that the fuel source, stormlight or voidlight is a factor. I 100% believe that she can Surgebind using voidlight. We know that cosmere magics can be powered through multiple magical fuel sources. Since stormlight and voidlight are from the same planet system and are so similar, it stands to reason that Venli can use voidlight to surgebind. Not to mention that the Fused are already doing it anyway, and the screamers don't care when they do. The screamers are certainly able to tell the difference between Radiants and Fused using these powers.

Her regal ability, Envoyform has given her the ability to understand languages and communicate very well with the other singers. Makes sense given the name Envoyform. I find it very hard to believe that Envoyform is giving her the ability to peek into Shadesmar. If that were the case, she wouldn't be trying so hard to hide this ability from the screamers and the Fused.

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Just now, psc92 said:

The screamers are detecting Radiants using Surgebinding, there is no reason to believe that the fuel source, stormlight or voidlight is a factor

By that logic they would be drawn every time the shanay-im flew by.

1 minute ago, psc92 said:

Her regal ability, Envoyform has given her the ability to understand languages and communicate very well with the other singers. Makes sense given the name Envoyform. I find it very hard to believe that Envoyform is giving her the ability to peek into Shadesmar. If that were the case, she wouldn't be trying so hard to hide this ability from the screamers and the Fused.

True.  However it also does not make sense that she can use such a high powered ability so easily and without drawing in stormlight.

11 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

This looks like a major setback to the Lightweavers. There must be at least one kind of Fused who can look into Shadesmar. They can tell humans and Singers apart.

I wonder if a way around that exists...

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5 minutes ago, Karger said:

By that logic they would be drawn every time the shanay-im flew by.

Maybe the Secretspren are trained to ignore the Fused. 

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So, I know it's not the most important thing in the chapter, but I was really happy to see Yokska is alright (or as alright as one can be when your city has been Taken over and you've been pretty much inslaved). Hope her husband is OK too( or as OK as one can... well, you get the idea) Wonder if She'll have some rol to play on the future( maybe She'll help Venli see that some humans can be trusted, help her with her resistence/rebellion and in the future serve as a bridge to Adolin and our MCs?)

Regardless I just love the way Brandon doesn't forget about any side charachter and I'm a huge fan of seemingly unimportant charachters getting a little bit more relevance in the future.

Edited by Shardsplinter
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11 minutes ago, Karger said:

By that logic they would be drawn every time the shanay-im flew by.

It could always be a Stormlight vs. Voidlight interaction there, wherein the secretspren react to the use of Stormlight, but other forms of Investiture. Hoid didn't draw any screamers when he Awakened in Kholinar at the end of Oathbringer.

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11 minutes ago, Karger said:

By that logic they would be drawn every time the shanay-im flew by.

This is what I said would not happen:

14 minutes ago, psc92 said:

Not to mention that the Fused are already doing it anyway, and the screamers don't care when they do. The screamers are certainly able to tell the difference between Radiants and Fused using these powers.

 

 

13 minutes ago, Karger said:

True.  However it also does not make sense that she can use such a high powered ability so easily and without drawing in stormlight.

Are you referring to her ability to understand languages or to peek into Shadesmar? If it's the former that's just the passive ability Envoyform gives her. If it's the latter, she's using voidlight to do it as we've already established.

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Iron fabrial cages (plus knowing that the steel one is the metal they're looking for)? Adolin's tailor? Confirmation on how singer forms work, and that gravitationspren=workform? More info on Willshaper surges?

Storms that was a good chapter.

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Passion to your credit, Masked Ones lurk, enemies lurking, masquerade credibility, you're too passionate.

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1 hour ago, Karger said:

We have only seen Renarin use stormlight.

Yes, but this could be a lack of opportunity.

It's an interesting idea, but I personally doubt it - Venli can use both because the voidspren bond grants access to Voidlight and the lightspren bond grants access to Stormlight. They're two separate spren with two different affliations. For Renarin to be able to use both "lights", it'd have to mean that a corrupted Radiant spren becomes "dual" in nature and not just "changed" (or "enlightened").

I mean, he DOES have access, with Stormlight, to two Surges, so it's not like he is using Stormlight for Regrowth and Voidlight for Illumination. It's just that his (Stormlight powered) Illumination is... Enlightened.

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19 minutes ago, Innovation said:

Maybe the Secretspren are trained to ignore the Fused. 

More likely they are designed to ignore or only detect certain investitures.

9 minutes ago, psc92 said:

If it's the latter, she's using voidlight to do it as we've already established.

More like it seems the most plausible as alternatives don't make as much sense.  However since normal radiants can't use voidlight at all(as far as we know anyway) this also implies that transpiration does not normally function this way.  It also begs the question of why cohesion can't be used fueled by voidlight if transportation can.

Edited by Karger
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