RoW Chapter 11 Discussion

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Nathrangking said:

That is likely true. However, the shenanigans with Moash that just taken place may have earned a second look as far as Odium is concerned. 

Sure but a second look does not seem to warrent a full plan change or a status update to dangerous unless something really unusual was found.

[Innovation]

Human bonded to a Truespren: Stormlight.

Human bonded to a corrupted Truespren: Voidlight and Stormlight.

Singer bonded to a Truespren: Voidlight and Stormlight. 

Signer bonded to a cognizant Voidspren: Voidlight.

All we have left see is a Singer bonded to a corrupted Truespren and human bonded to a Voidspren, which should both allow intake of Stormlight and Voidlight. 

Edited September 15, 2020 by Innovation

[Karger]

Just now, Innovation said:

Human bonded to a corrupted Truespren: Voidlight and Stormlight.

We have only seen Renarin use stormlight.

[+Harrycrapper]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

Sure but a second look does not seem to warrent a full plan change or a status update to dangerous unless something really unusual was found.

Well, if Odium figured out what Taravangian did, that Renarin's future sight is going to interfere with Odium's future sight, that might warrant a dangerous operation to take him out.

[Honorless]

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

Does it?  Couldn't it just be the amplification of Venli's natural abilities?  Even Kaladin sees some shadesmar visions.

I think the Stormfather just chose to appear to him in WoK and in OB he used the Elantrian Fortune sphere

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

They might be just voidspren.

The name's a bit generic so I wondered if they might be Corrupted, and they seem to be something new (then again, we don't enough of pre-Recreance to say that definitively). Who knows, maybe all Voidspren are created via Corruption and it's just that so far we've only seen Corrupted lesser spren

[Nathrangking]

Just now, Karger said:

Sure but a second look does not seem to warrent a full plan change or a status update to dangerous unless something really unusual was found.

I grant you that. Which is why I think that Sja- Anat's role in things may be part of what changed the plan. Moash being chased off by Renarin in of itself does not seem like something which would blow everything up. Unless, Moash getting Kaladin out of the  was so crucial to Odium's strategy that the failure of the action threatens everything I just can't see it. There must be something bigger at play here.

[Innovation]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

We have only seen Renarin use stormlight.

It should be possible. He is bonded with a Spren full of both Honor/Cultivation’s power and Odium’s. 

[+Harrycrapper]

1 minute ago, Honorless said:

I think the Stormfather just chose to appear to him in WoK and in OB he used the Elantrian Fortune sphere

Actually, what he was referring to was when Kaladin was first really learning to use his powers he was able to see into Shadesmar, though it wasn't quite the same as  Shallan's.

[Karger]

4 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

Well, if Odium figured out what Taravangian did, that Renarin's future sight is going to interfere with Odium's future sight, that might warrant a dangerous operation to take him out.

I agree but that implies that Odium has been pretty slow on the uptake(which can happen certainly) but more importantly he has alerted a top person that something dangerous is going on.  If he just wanted Renarin off the board wouldn't it just be a "I have a mission for you Leshwi."  Finally killing R would not actually stop Glys.  We know he could rebond nor is an enemy strike a "new dangerous operation."  During warefare that sort of thing happens pretty commonly.

3 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I think the Stormfather just chose to appear to him in WoK and in OB he used the Elantrian Fortune sphere

I was thinking about WoR when learning gravitation and sees a sudden shift.

Edited September 15, 2020 by Karger

[Friendshipspren]

13 minutes ago, Karger said:

Does it?  Couldn't it just be the amplification of Venli's natural abilities?  Even Kaladin sees some shadesmar visions.

.

Good question.  Also the question.  Where does the voidlight come from?

Kal only saw it once when he was in shadesmar and with a device meant to divine the future or with direct assists from Stormfather who only helps him cause he's bonded to his favorite daughter. 

As for him seeing deathspren. Hmm idk , maybe it's a general thing for all radiants. 

Besides it fits in seeing the other surge of the willshapers is transportation. 

Huh I wonder if jasnah knows this trick too. 

 

I thought it was the Everstorm. The voidlight was stored in gems but was useless for illumination purposes so we don't see it used trivially much . 

And perhaps Odium can directly recharge the voidlight stores of the parshendi through thier gemhearts. 

Atleast with the fused who already have Connected with Odium , although I think it's only possible during Everstorms.  Perhaps they then  pass it on to the Regals and the like. 

 

Edited September 15, 2020 by PrinceGenocide
A little polishing

[ScadrianTank]

3 minutes ago, Innovation said:

All we have left see is a Singer bonded to a corrupted Truespren and human bonded to a Voidspren, which should both allow intake of Stormlight and Voidlight. 

I think we might have seen a human bonded to a Voidspen. Aesudan's "Radiants" were bonded to them, were they not?

[Innovation]

Just now, ScadrianTank said:

I think we might have seen a human bonded to a Voidspen. Aesudan's "Radiants" were bonded to them, were they not?

I think they were bonded to non-thinking Voidspren. 

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, Innovation said:

It should be possible. He is bonded with a Spren full of both Honor/Cultivation’s power and Odium’s. 

We still have no proof.  It seems reasonable they he could but I don't know if he can.

3 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

I thought it was the Everstorm. The voidlight was stored in gems but was useless for illumination purposes so we don't see it used trivially much . 

No Kaladin confirmed in OB that the everstorm does not grant voidlight.

3 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Kal only saw it once when he was in shadesmar and with a device meant to divine the future. 

I was referencing WoKs when he looks into shadesmar while learning gravitation.

[Honorless]

2 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

Actually, what he was referring to was when Kaladin was first really learning to use his powers he was able to see into Shadesmar, though it wasn't quite the same as  Shallan's.

I don't remember it, could you paste an extract if it's not too much trouble

1 minute ago, Karger said:

I was thinking about WoR when learning gravitation and sees a sudden shift.

Hmm, I think that's just the inner workings of the Surge becoming visible to him, really not the same thing.

 

Besides, we were told that the Willshapers, Elsecallers and Lightweavers had an affinity for "the far realm of spren". It makes sense for both Soulcasting and Transportation to allow the user to view the Cognitive Realm, and no wonder that the Elsecallers were called "the true masters of that realm" compared to them, both their Surges are really quite a bit oriented towards the Cognitive

[+honorblades]

This quote about Fused history has me intrigued: 
 

Quote

As beings thousands of years old, each one had a lore and history long enough to fill books. It angered them that no one knew them individually this time around.

Emphasis is mine. This implies that the Singers had a culture that persisted between desolations, perhaps even to a greater extent than what the humans had. I think this would be something akin to the lore surrounding the Heralds, but perhaps more specific because there are far more Fused than there are Heralds. 

Also, I'd like to again highlight the parallel of the different brands of Fused & orders of Knights being seen as a cohesive entity but in reality are not. They are more alike than either realizes, I think. 

Anyway, good chapter, as always. Can't wait for the next one. 

[Shardsplinter]

So much new info on this episode!!! Venli is starting a resistence!!!!! Yeeehhyyy!!!!

First up, something seems odd with the epigraph. According to last week they are already using iron and steel as a pair to change polarity...and know they need a metal to do the oposite of iron, but don't think of steel? or could it be that they've tried but repellers use a different metal?

Sweet that Venli can use both Stormlight and Voidlight but we still know very little of this one or how Fused obtein or use it.

It seemed interesting that gravitationspren are used for workform. I think up until now we knew close to nothing about the sprends singers bond. Is there a logic behind it? could other spren be use for that same form? I think I find it curiouse because there are like 4 different spren on The Coppermind related to Gravity including the groundpren and the luckspren( the Mandra I think) , so are they really all different ir just different names for the same thing??

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I don't remember it, could you paste an extract if it's not too much trouble

Quote

The voice faded. For a moment, Kaladin thought he saw shadows of a world that was not, shadows of another place. And in that place, a distant sky with a sun enclosed, almost as if by a corridor of clouds.

There.

He made the direction of the wall become down.

1 minute ago, Shardsplinter said:

First up, something seems odd with the epigraph. According to last week they are already using iron and steel as a pair to change polarity...and know they need a metal to do the oposite of iron, but don't think of steel? or could it be that they've tried but repellers use a different metal?

Or maybe it does work but only on incredibly low power? 

[ScadrianTank]

4 minutes ago, Innovation said:

I think they were bonded to non-thinking Voidspren.

Well, we haven't seen a Singer bond to a sapient Voidspren either, IIRC. The two examples of those we saw were Ulik and the one that guided Sah and his group to Kholinar.

[+Harrycrapper]

1 minute ago, Honorless said:

I don't remember it, could you paste an extract if it's not too much trouble

Hmm, I think that's just the inner workings of the Surge becoming visible to him, really not the same thing.

 

Besides, we were told that the Willshapers, Elsecallers and Lightweavers had an affinity for "the far realm of spren". It makes sense for both Soulcasting and Transportation to allow the user to view the Cognitive Realm, and no wonder that the Elsecallers were called "the true masters of that realm" compared to them, both their Surges are really quite a bit oriented towards the Cognitive

I don't have access to a digital copy, but if I recall correctly it's when he starts really learning how to use Lashings to change his direction of gravity and he seems to find the objects he's lashing himself to in Shadesmar. He mentions seeing the weird sun with light stretching towards it. It's a real blink and you miss it moment, I only caught it on re-reads. 

Dalinar also had a slight ability to see the Cognitive realm, when he heard the pieces of the statue wanting to be whole again. I suspect most if not all the Radiants have some varying ability to perceive the Cognitive realm as it relates to their Surges. It's likely due to the fact that their powers come from their Spren which are Cognitive entities and therefore certain aspects of their powers work through the Cognitive realm. 

[Black_Shoshan]

21 minutes ago, Innovation said:

 

Singer bonded to a Truespren: Voidlight and Stormlight. 

 

I think this only applies to Regals like Venli who are bonded to a voidspren. A regular singer in forms like wrokform don't have access to voidlight.

 

Good to get confirmation that Venli is on her first oath and didn't say any words off screen. I'm pretty sure that she'll be saying the second oath of the Willshapers in some climactic moment, I wonder if that';; be in part 5 or if it'll be earlier in the book.

[Innovation]

Just now, Black_Shoshan said:

I think this only applies to Regals like Venli who are bonded to a voidspren. A regular singer in forms like wrokform don't have access to voidlight.

 

They can still breath it in. Just because they don’t have access doesn’t mean they can’t. 

[+Bliev]

The Rhythm of Agony. Something has happened to really concern Leshwi! So the war taking a different turn.

I assume that so far the war has been pretty traditional: battles over land and resources, refugees, battles in the air and on the ground. Here  are my thoughts:

1. Maybe this new shift is Ba Ado Mishram's arrival/freedom (and @Chaos I literally typed "Bae" ado mishram in your honor and had to delete, so thanks for that lol). I wonder if, when she connects with singers/fused, she changes them? making even Leshwi concerned? Venli talked alot about how every form of power changes a Singer/Listener...that would change a path.

2.  Alternatively, maybe the same contact who warns Navani has also warned Odium's side--they are an "interested" third party (think godspren? rogue unmade?) who is intervening in the war in a way that adds a new front and challenge?

3. odium is shifting his attack to be less traditional warfare (which privileges Leshwi's "heavenly ones") and is requiring more subterfuge and risk. she is going to be asked to infiltrate in ways that she is not comfortable with. maybe as a result of the fabrial being taken in Hearthstone? Or because Odium is using Moash to attack Urithiru from within and has infiltrated it--so they are all going to attack Urithiru directly?

[Govir]

29 minutes ago, Karger said:

Odium must be somewhat aware of Renarin from before now.

Wasn't Renarin hidden from his sight? or at least in the Diagram's version of Renarin?

 

31 minutes ago, Honorless said:

16) So Timbre wasn't alone in this... she's representing other spren. Presumably not a certain type of spren given that we've met her kind, her father, to be exact.

I took this as a little white lie on Venli's part. She's talking to Timbre, who is a lightspren and can in theory act as a social bridge to the other lightspren. I don't think Timbre is *actually* representing the lightspren at this time.

[psc92]

31 minutes ago, Karger said:

Does it?  Couldn't it just be the amplification of Venli's natural abilities?  Even Kaladin sees some shadesmar visions.

Occam's Razor: All Radiants have some relation to Shadesmar, but the ability to willingly peek into Shadesmar is an application of Transportation.

Also:

Quote

She had escaped those secretspren without revealing herself, but it had been close. As long as the secretspren were near, Venli could not practice the full extent of her abilities. Fortunately, this power—the one that let her peek into Shadesmar—did not draw the same attention.

The Secretspren or 'Screamers' as they were called back in Kholinar during Oathbringer are detecting Radiants using their surges, though they are not capable of detecting all surges it seems. They could detect Kaladin's Lashings and Venli's attempt at using Cohesion, but not Shallan's Lightweaving or Venli's use of Transportation. It seems they can only detect the surges that are interfacing with and changing physical objects like Gravitation and Cohesion. 

Venli is using Transportation here and the Secretspren can't detect it.

[Karger]

2 minutes ago, psc92 said:

Occam's Razor: All Radiants have some relation to Shadesmar, but the ability to willingly peek into Shadesmar is an application of Transportation.

Except usually it is in the preview of transformation.

2 minutes ago, psc92 said:

Also:

Note that she does not draw in stormlight when doing so.