Death in the family

[Mistborn Surgebinder]

Unpopular prediction: I get the distinct impression that our beloved Kaladin isn't going to survive this book. Obviously, we know that not everyone can survive the first 5 books, and we also know that BranSan has been a fan of doing things earlier than expected (intro of odium, death of sadeas, etc). We also know that he loves to subvert tropes and expectations. 

I could be wrong. But I do want to be the first to make this prediction. I will not be surprised if Kal dies this time around. 

[Erklitt]

There are many others reasons against this, but to me the most compelling is this: Kaladin is the most loved character of all. If Brandon kills him off, a lot of readers will have had it. It would be exactly what turned off so many (including me) from Game of Thrones, only worse, because so far Brandon has avoided this sort of reader-betrayal. At least GRRM showed his colors pretty early in the series. 

I think I'm pretty much a typical BS reader in this aspect, that the death of a main hero is acceptable as long as it accomplishes something great and 'makes sense' on a higher level, best of all with the hero being quite content to die while accomplishing their goal.
Mistborn Spoiler:

Spoiler

Think Kelsier / Vin / Elend in Mistborn.

If not that, at lest it will have to become clear later that this death had an important meaning to subsequent events and was like a seed for ultimate victory. I can't see any early death of Kaladin in any such light.

So: NO, I would take up any bet against this! :-)

[Mistborn Surgebinder]

I love kaladin. I love Brandon. I have trust that if this happens, it will be done in such a way as to be acceptable. Brandon gets his readers and why they love his writing. WoR is a long book. There's plenty of room and time to set it up, imo. 

[Subvisual Haze]

So many expectations would be subverted

[garlick]

I would take the bet he survives. Removing him from command is going to let him grow into saying the 4th oath. 

[Black_Shoshan]

It's very hard for me to believe Kaladin will die this book. If he dies, it'll be in book 5. 

Here Kaladin is at a very low point emotionally. Killing Kaladin off when he's severely depressed will be too grimdark and pointless, and besides that if Kaladin hasn't made progress with his core conflicts of "how can I protect if it means killing people" and "how can I be okay with my fellow protectors being killed themselves", will be an unsatisfying narrative. 

I don't see Kaladin solving both of these issues this book, though he'll probably make progress with them. But until he does, killing Kaladin will not make a good story, imo.

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 9/15/2020 at 11:14 AM, Erklitt said:

There are many others reasons against this, but to me the most compelling is this: Kaladin is the most loved character of all. If Brandon kills him off, a lot of readers will have had it. It would be exactly what turned off so many (including me) from Game of Thrones, only worse, because so far Brandon has avoided this sort of reader-betrayal. At least GRRM showed his colors pretty early in the series. 

I think I'm pretty much a typical BS reader in this aspect, that the death of a main hero is acceptable as long as it accomplishes something great and 'makes sense' on a higher level, best of all with the hero being quite content to die while accomplishing their goal.
Mistborn Spoiler:

  Hide contents

Think Kelsier / Vin / Elend in Mistborn.

If not that, at lest it will have to become clear later that this death had an important meaning to subsequent events and was like a seed for ultimate victory. I can't see any early death of Kaladin in any such light.

So: NO, I would take up any bet against this! :-)

Spoiler

Kel didn’t quite die...

Kal isn’t going to die here, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Dalinar does. They’ve gotten used to him giving them unlimited Stormlight - what happens when he isn’t there to do it? Remember what Karl’s thinking in the early chapters? About how they’re risking their only Bondsmith? If that isn’t foreshadowing...

 

There are other reasons too. Narratively, Dalinar finished his arc in book 3. Originally Brandon planned for Dalinar to have his book last, and kept hinting one book would be post-mortem. He could have meant this one, but it’s Venli’s book too. I think it was supposed to be Dalinar’s book; Dalinar does here and his backstory would have been revealed after. Obviously, that’s changed, but I think Dalinar still dies here.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613

[Pathfinder]

31 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Kel didn’t quite die...

Kal isn’t going to die here, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Dalinar does. They’ve gotten used to him giving them unlimited Stormlight - what happens when he isn’t there to do it? Remember what Karl’s thinking in the early chapters? About how they’re risking their only Bondsmith? If that isn’t foreshadowing...

 

There are other reasons too. Narratively, Dalinar finished his arc in book 3. Originally Brandon planned for Dalinar to have his book last, and kept hinting one book would be post-mortem. He could have meant this one, but it’s Venli’s book too. I think it was supposed to be Dalinar’s book; Dalinar does here and his backstory would have been revealed after. Obviously, that’s changed, but I think Dalinar still dies here.

The flashbacks of Dalinar was what was going to switch depending on the book. Brandon made book three Dalinar's because the flashbacks he had planned he felt supported the story more in book three than book five. But the over all plot remained the same. Brandon has been on record that we will see more Dalinar in book five than in book four. If the flash backs in book five are Szeth's, and not Dalinar's, then I am not sure how we could see more Dalinar in book five if he is dies in book four. So I really do not see Dalinar dying. Honestly I don't see Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Jasnah, or Renarin dying in the first half of the stormlight archive. But to each their own. 

Edited September 18, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Kingsdaughter613]

21 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The flashbacks of Dalinar was what was going to switch depending on the book. Brandon made book three Dalinar's because the flashbacks he had planned he felt supported the story more in book three than book five. But the over all plot remained the same. Brandon has been on record that we will see more Dalinar in book five than in book four. If the flash backs in book five are Szeth's, and not Dalinar's, then I am not sure how we could see more Dalinar in book five if he is dies in book four. So I really do not see Dalinar dying. Honestly I don't see Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Jasnah, or Renarin dying in the first half of the stormlight archive. But to each their own. 

Right now he makes the most sense.

Kal, Shallan, Szeth and Venli haven’t completed their arcs. Jasnah, Renarin and the Heralds we haven’t spent enough time with. Lift is obviously being set up for something more. So if anyone is going to die this book, it’s probably Dalinar, for a given definition of ‘dead’, seeing as he may have Ascended. But I do think he will have a narrative death. Maybe he’ll take Jezrian’s place in the Oathpact and next book he’ll be on Braize?
 

Last book is anyone’s game. 

[Pathfinder]

25 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Right now he makes the most sense.

Kal, Shallan, Szeth and Venli haven’t completed their arcs. Jasnah, Renarin and the Heralds we haven’t spent enough time with. Lift is obviously being set up for something more. So if anyone is going to die this book, it’s probably Dalinar, for a given definition of ‘dead’, seeing as he may have Ascended. But I do think he will have a narrative death. Maybe he’ll take Jezrian’s place in the Oathpact and next book he’ll be on Braize?
 

Last book is anyone’s game. 

I am confused, you just said regarding our mistborn friend, that that doesn't count as dead. 

edit: also, again confused, but if he ascended, would he not still have an arc? Considering he would have a part in book five that isn't a flashback?

Edited September 18, 2020 by Pathfinder

[HipsterStick]

I find very unlikely that Kaladin is killed off. Book five, perhaps- but definitely not book five. I’m no literary expert, but killing off a protagonist in the middle of their arc seems like it would alienate the fan base a little too much, especially in a series as optimistic and- pardon the pun- as idealistic as the Stormlight Archive (and I would argue that, compared to most modern fantasy, Stormlight Archive is VERY idealistic). Furthermore, I find it unlikely that Dalinar will die, for reasons mentioned on this thread.

However, I still think someone’s gonna die. Why? Two reasons. First, to maintain a sense of desperation and to raise the stakes for the final book, there’s going to have to be a tragedy or a bittersweet ending, a la The Empire Strikes Back. Second, Sanderson has said that this book represents a shift from petty villains (Amaram, Sadeas, etc...) to more Cosmic/Eldritch villains (Odium, the Fused, etc...). I reckon that the same is gonna hold true with the heroes. In this battleground of Gods and Demons, it’s unlikely that the average man will maintain relevance.

In short- I think Adolin is toast.

He’s mentioned several times that he feels out of place in a world full of Radiants. And he’s right- Shardplate and Shardblades, cool as they are, are not going to be very effective against Fused. He’s a support crutch for several major characters, yes- but if these people are going to progress, the crutch may need to go.

Also, let’s not forget that (spoilers for WoKP):

Spoiler

Aredor died about halfway through the original iteration of Way of Kings.

So, yeah. As much as I hate to admit it, I think he’s done for.

Personally, I think he’s going to go out in a blaze of glory and- somehow- revive Mayalaran. Adolin may die- but I think his death will inspire the Spren to trust humanity, and prove to them that they are worth saving.

[Georion]

I think it's extremely unlikely that Kaladin would die in RoW, and quite unlikely to die even in 5th. As far as I can tell, Brandon doesnt to that kind of subversion of expectations. We have a fairly clear view of his character arc, imo, and it's nowhere near its end.  

However some main character is likely to die, if not in RoW, then in the 5th book, and well, there's just a whole lot of Kholins in the main cast, so my guess is, that if it's just the one main character we lose in this half of the series, then it's one of them.

And if we go a bit further, there's 0% for it to be Renarin, very unlikely to be Navani or Jasnah so either Dalinar or Adolin, and the latter is more likely in my opinion. Could be both tho

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 9/18/2020 at 3:11 PM, Pathfinder said:

I am confused, you just said regarding our mistborn friend, that that doesn't count as dead. 

edit: also, again confused, but if he ascended, would he not still have an arc? Considering he would have a part in book five that isn't a flashback?

I meant narrative death, where he is dead as far as the primary story (which takes place on Roshar) and the other characters are concerned. Which does parallel what happened to Kell, but more like when he was trapped in the Well than when he was wandering about actively involving himself in the plot.

[Pathfinder]

17 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I meant narrative death, where he is dead as far as the primary story (which takes place on Roshar) and the other characters are concerned. Which does parallel what happened to Kell, but more like when he was trapped in the Well than when he was wandering about actively involving himself in the plot.

In your theory regarding book four with dalinars narrative death as you put it, has odium been defeated at that point?

 

edit: re-read my post a few times, and just in case, I do not mean it to sound snarky. There have been theories that the holder of Odium would be defeated or killed in the first half, so I was asking for clarity if that is included in your theory. 

Edited September 21, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Solant]

I agree with @Pathfinder here. The wob stating that Dalinar will have a strong presence in book 5 implies heavily that he will live to be there... At least that was my impression.

As far as Kaladin goes, i think that despite the presence of Edgedancers we are going to see him at least attempt to return to doctorin' with dad. In addition to this, since he will be present more in Urithiru for the foreseeable future, we are going to see him reconnect with Tarah unexpectedly since we saw her lurking around town in the background in OB.

You read it here first 

[Rainier]

If there's a character who's going to die, this book or the next, my money is on Adolin. It's a common enough sentiment, but he just seems to be the right combination of central to the plot and expendable to the plot that his death would be meaningful for multiple characters (his wife, his brother, his father). 

This would be actual body-feeds-the-Rosharan-equivalent-of-worms dead, not some kind of deception.

That's honestly who I thought you were referring to by a death in the family. The family at the center of the story is Dalinar's family, so I assumed you meant a death in his family.

[Kingsdaughter613]

11 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

In your theory regarding book four with dalinars narrative death as you put it, has odium been defeated at that point?

 

edit: re-read my post a few times, and just in case, I do not mean it to sound snarky. There have been theories that the holder of Odium would be defeated or killed in the first half, so I was asking for clarity if that is included in your theory. 

It would be the prelude to it. I think there was a WoB about POVs from Braize in book 5? I might be misremembering though.

 

Basically, if Dalinar takes Jezrian’s place, the Fused start dying again and book 5 starts with that premise. This allows the first half to wrap up with the Desolation paused for now, quite possibly with Odium dead and someone else picking up the Shard. 
 

I don’t see Adolin dying because that makes the romance plot of book 3 kind of pointless? And Brandon doesn’t seem to like splitting up young lovers. If Adolin is killed, I suspect it will be a Ghostblood conspiracy, though.

But right now he has a very important job: audience surrogate to discovering the Cosmere. Shallan has too many issues to serve in that role, but Adolin is perfect for it. It doesn’t occur to us because we are all familiar with the Cosmere, but to casual readers it’s an essential role.

 

Other people likely to die: Hesina. Lirin’s death is not as interesting as the ‘nice’ parent dying.

Mraize, but probably not until book 5.

Original members of Bridge 4.

Szeth, in book 5.

[Pathfinder]

Thank you for clarifying. Based on what you have said, sorry but there is just too much conflicting or does not make sense for me to buy into your theory. I will explain why below. Though I still wish you luck!

 

13 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

It would be the prelude to it. I think there was a WoB about POVs from Braize in book 5? I might be misremembering though.

To my recollection Brandon has confirmed that the back five books will focus on the heralds and their flashbacks to find out more about Braize. As Dalinar has not been to Braize, he could not have flashbacks to that location. I think the heralds cover that fully. 

13 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Basically, if Dalinar takes Jezrian’s place, the Fused start dying again and book 5 starts with that premise. This allows the first half to wrap up with the Desolation paused for now, quite possibly with Odium dead and someone else picking up the Shard. 

When Jezerian was alive, the fused still returned with the Everstorm. I do agree I feel Odium had him taken out because there might be something that the heralds could potentially do that would cause problems, but the heralds numbering 10 by itself is not enough to end the everstorm's effect. 

13 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I don’t see Adolin dying because that makes the romance plot of book 3 kind of pointless? And Brandon doesn’t seem to like splitting up young lovers. If Adolin is killed, I suspect it will be a Ghostblood conspiracy, though.

It is problematic to split up young lovers, but not old lovers who have found new love? Dalinar would be leaving Navani after all. Do not think it is entirely fair or accurate to say it would not happen to one couple, while saying it is ok or natural to have it happen to another couple, especially when that already occurred to them and was a very beautiful scene (when Dalinar and Adolin almost die from Sadeas's trick. Navani thinks they have died, and paints the justice glyph)

13 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

But right now he has a very important job: audience surrogate to discovering the Cosmere. Shallan has too many issues to serve in that role, but Adolin is perfect for it. It doesn’t occur to us because we are all familiar with the Cosmere, but to casual readers it’s an essential role.

Navani, Jasnah, Dalinar, and Shallan have all been used over the course of the books to help us discover more about the Cosmere, and it has not required any of them to die "in fact". I quote the in fact because it was believed that Jasnah was dead at one point. Now the group on whole has access to shadesmar, which has regular travel and trade with the rest of the cosmere. Simply expanding the presence in the cognitive realm should be more than ample for multiple characters to be the audience surrogates for the Cosmere without any form of death, be it actual or to another state of being. 

13 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Other people likely to die: Hesina. Lirin’s death is not as interesting as the ‘nice’ parent dying.

I would be concerned that this would be fridging a parent to just result in "growth". 

13 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Mraize, but probably not until book 5.

Maybe? But that isn't exactly a "death in the family"

13 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Original members of Bridge 4.

Perhaps, so long as it isn't used like I said regarding Lirin, as fridging for "character growth"

13 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Szeth, in book 5.

Perhaps, though I feel he still has much to do and many more oaths to show. 

 

So in summation I shall list the reasons why your theory regarding Dalinar's narrative death does not work for me and certainly does not feel like the most likely. Though I still wish you luck!

1. first and foremost the information I presented earlier. I do not see any way Dalinar can be "reduced" or "removed" from the main narrative, and yet we see more of him in book five than we have seen in book four. Especially with how the preview chapters of book four have been shaping up. The flash backs were what was moved and determined whose book it would be, so since Dalinar will not have flashbacks in book 5, I simply cannot see any other way for Dalinar to have a presence in book 5, especially more than book 4, and still be "removed" from this main narrative

2. if Dalinar's proposed death is one of state rather than existence, I still do not see him being devoid from the main narrative. If anything based on the individual, as well as his relationships with Navani, Renarin, and Kaladin, would result in me believing he would be even more vocal and involved than our other shardholder (begins with the letter S) from another world that has interacted with the main characters of the book. Further, we know Tanavast had a very hands on approach towards his heralds and radiants during the war with Odium, so there would be nothing in place to limit Dalinar doing the same. Which again would be evidence to me that Dalinar, even as "divinity" would still be very much part of the main narrative and a voice with the main cast. And that is even with me not believing that the narrative would go in this direction. 

3. I do not see how Dalinar's narrative has ended. I disagree on what you term is his narrative. To me his narrative is to unite in opposition to Odium. It is clear the scars formed between all the races and ethnicities on Roshar need to be healed in order for Odium to be defeated. Till such endgame has been attained, I do not see Dalinar's narrative ending. 

[LordTheodore]

I hope Kaladin dies as reading his chapters are a chore. But I doubt he will.