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Oltux72

Control structure of the Knights Radiant

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So the head of the Bondsmiths (by default) is telling the head of the Windrunners (by seniority) to give up command. If you see Dalinar as Kaladin's superior officer, this is well and as it should be. Yet that is by far not the only way to see it. We have eight orders of Knights Radiant among the Knights Radiant. Two of them are bound to Danilar Kholin by some sort of relationship. What about the rest? I doubt Jasnah or Malata or the Stump or Lift would simply take orders from Dalinar. How does this work?

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The Knights Radiant aren't really being used to provide a command structure, the command structure is the same as if all the people involved were not Radiant. Jasnah has authority over people because she's the Queen of Alethkar. Dalinar has authority because he's the highprince of Urithiru and leader of the coalition.

Malata would take orders from Taravangian, who technically claims to be allied with Dalinar, so for now Malata would listen to him (in public at least). As far as we know the Edgedancers are based out of Urithiru and so probably answer to Dalinar through that, so including Lift and Stump (probably via some command stucture)?

I don't know that this organization is similar to or different from how the Knights Radiant were organized in the past, but I don't think the characters do either, so it doesn't really come up or matter. 

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10 hours ago, ftl said:

The Knights Radiant aren't really being used to provide a command structure, the command structure is the same as if all the people involved were not Radiant. Jasnah has authority over people because she's the Queen of Alethkar. Dalinar has authority because he's the highprince of Urithiru and leader of the coalition.

And that is a train wreck waiting to happen. We already had an Iri Radiant. As general Khal put it, you will find headquarters of the Knights Radiant in every major kingdom. And suppose somebody bonds The Sibling or the Nightwatcher. Are they just supposed to swallow this idea of a king of Urithiru?

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The head of the war effort and the king of urithriu, arguably the most accomplished general alive, tells the leader of the Windrunner that he is a liability in battle and therefore not welcome to participate in combat missions. 

I did not read it as if Kalladin lost his leadership role in the Windrunners outside direkt Combat, indeed if he thought he could handle it kal would probably be welcome to join Dalinar in his role.

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Dalinar is both followed and not followed due to WHO he is. His enemies feared and reviled him but his own troops would follow him to hell and back.  Now, in addition he is a Bondsmith. He was a renowned military leader until his breakdown and he came back to lead again. Not everyone buys into his leadership by default but Kaladin certainly does.

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8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

And that is a train wreck waiting to happen. We already had an Iri Radiant. As general Khal put it, you will find headquarters of the Knights Radiant in every major kingdom. And suppose somebody bonds The Sibling or the Nightwatcher. Are they just supposed to swallow this idea of a king of Urithiru?

I dont see 3 Bondsmiths interfer with each other, simply because they would have different roles. Stormfathers Bonsmith as War Bondsmith, Nightwatchers as Economy/Population Bonsmith, Siblings as Sience Bondsmith. And yes, one of them will be on paper superior to others simply for practical reasons, but probably they will be more like triuumvirat.

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6 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Stormfathers Bonsmith as War Bondsmith, Nightwatchers as Economy/Population Bonsmith, Siblings as Sience Bondsmith

It might be more accurate to say crisis bondsmith, political bondsmith and bureaucracy bondsmith.

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There's also the fact that bondsmiths don't appear to get any squires so a healthy organization probably has one elder, one acting and one bondsmith-in-training with their own distinct responsibilities. I envision it similar to the Mother-Queen-Lady dynamic of the fae courts in the Dresden files. 

 

 

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23 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

So the head of the Bondsmiths (by default) is telling the head of the Windrunners (by seniority) to give up command. If you see Dalinar as Kaladin's superior officer, this is well and as it should be. Yet that is by far not the only way to see it. We have eight orders of Knights Radiant among the Knights Radiant. Two of them are bound to Danilar Kholin by some sort of relationship. What about the rest? I doubt Jasnah or Malata or the Stump or Lift would simply take orders from Dalinar. How does this work?

Removing someone from the front lines of war is quite different from forcing someone to give up command.  Dalinar especially serves as an example of that. 

There's a lot more to being a Knights Radiant than just fighting and I'm hoping that will be an important theme of the book.  Kaladin being regarded as the Leader of the Windrunners isn't really contingent on his combat role, official command structure position, or even really oath progression.  He's the leader because everyone regards him as their leader and he has earned their personal loyalty.  Look no further than the end battle in Oathbringer for the amount of sway his wishes have: the Windrunners were initially planning to sit out the battle completely because the revelation that Roshar wasn't home for humans contradicted the justification Kaladin gave for fighting (we're protecting our homes from invaders) and they planned to wait for Kaladin to return before joining the battle.

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I actually think there's a more fundamental issue at play here besides "poor organization structure of the Knights Radiant" - it's the disunity and distrust in the opposition to Odium. They cannot have a "command structure for the Knights Radiant" because the Knights Radiant aren't all on the same side!

At the very least, it's obvious that the Skybreakers are (mostly) on Odium's side, so far with Szeth the only exceptions we know of.

Taravangian is playing a double agent and our one known Dustbringer/Releaser (Malata) seems to be in favor, so she obviously doesn't want to be under the command of anyone on Team Honor/Cultivation. So Kharbaranthinan/Veden Radiants are out, as are Dustbringers/Releasers.

The various other human nations are also only reluctantly committed to the coalition. Well, Thaylenah might be all for it now, but the rest of 'em certainly don't want to permanently give up their newfound Radiants to the Alethi! (Dalinar is trying to set up an independent organization in Urithiru so that it doesn't look to other nations like they're becoming vassals to Alethkar. Even getting as far as he has it's massive success, but there's a lot further to go.) 

And hey. If there was a natural leader for the Knights Radiant - someone who could indisputably be the head of all the orders, who everyone would recognize as being given the god-granted right to lead them - it would be Ishar, Herald of the Bondsmiths. ...and he's probably on Team Odium, or at the very least totally insane. So that's not a great plan.

Edited by ftl
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On 9/13/2020 at 4:56 AM, Oltux72 said:

And that is a train wreck waiting to happen. We already had an Iri Radiant. As general Khal put it, you will find headquarters of the Knights Radiant in every major kingdom. And suppose somebody bonds The Sibling or the Nightwatcher. Are they just supposed to swallow this idea of a king of Urithiru?

I do think Dalinar as king of Urithiru is a problem.  I expect we might see this play out in RoW.  I think the Bondsmiths are intended to be more like a ruling Triumvirate.  When we do get another Bondsmith, I think we'll see Dalinar modify his title as "king" of Urithiru.

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