[OB spoiler] Why do the spren form Nahel bonds at all?

[+robardin]

The ten orders of Knights Radiant only started happening after a few cycles of Desolations, when the spren tried to emulate what Honor had done with the Honorblades and bonded humans. Ishar was surprised by this and "founded the orders" by "giving them precepts" (Ideals?), "to keep their power in check".

This implies a couple of things:

• The Heralds successfully fought the Unmade, the Fused, and Thuderclasts all by themselves for a number of initial Desolations, training normal humans to fight against normal singers in warform or other forms.
• The spren saw this and wanted to help out. But why? Why would they care whether humans or singers ruled Roshar? Didn't they pre-exist humans arriving as well (as Syl said, some of the older spren had four genders, "because they weren't imagined by humans"!)
• A pre-Second-Ideal Syl hissed and flew away at Kaladin's mention of Odium's name, which he'd first heard from the Stormfather after he "rode the storm" in a vision. ODIUM REIGNS.
• Now that Honor is dead and the Oathpact is broken and the Final Desolation is here, we see more and more kinds of Radiant spren risking another Recreance to resist The Enemy and bonding people again.

Leaving aside the deeper question of "wait, if Honor was worshiped by the Dawnsingers on Roshar before humans arrived with Odium, how did they switch places in terms of allegiances?", though perhaps it is linked: why did/do the spren fear Odium's victory and want to prevent it?

Odium did say to Dalinar that once released, he would not be leaving behind the splinters of Honor and Cultivation - "I can already see where that would go wrong" - and that "the changes to this realm would be substantial". Does that mean he'd somehow eradicate all the sentient spren as well as the Stormfather, Nightwatcher, etc., and the spren know this?

[Honorless]

Judging by the comments made by Syl, Pattern and that Cultivationspren at Celebrant, yes, Odium threatened Shadesmar as well. Not to mention Shadesmar's continued existence is dependent on Roshar's continued existence, it's formed by the collective consciousness of Roshar's inhabitants after all

[+robardin]

59 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Judging by the comments made by Syl, Pattern and that Cultivationspren at Celebrant, yes, Odium threatened Shadesmar as well. Not to mention Shadesmar's continued existence is dependent on Roshar's continued existence, it's formed by the collective consciousness of Roshar's inhabitants after all

So how can Malata's spren "be fine with this" (the Diagram going over to Team Odium), or the honorspren still be so huffy and standoffish... Or how could the Stormfather justify sending that unexpected highstorm (as Dalilar reflected, "had actively tried to murder" him and his men) ahead of the Everstorm, to just let the Voidbringers win at the Battle of Narak?

Even if he truly believes that Dalinar's Radiants would eventually kill their spren, just as happened in the Recreance and "your kind have brought nothing but death to mine", wouldn't losing 90% of radiant spren to a second Recreance be better than elimination?

And conversely - if Odium's victory will still leave Shadesmar and sentient spren around, just in a pre-humanity-on-Roshar way - why would they care so much?

Edited September 11, 2020 by robardin

[Honorless]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

So how can Malata's spren "be fine with this" (the Diagram going over to Team Odium), or the honorspren still be so huffy and standoffish... Or how could the Stormfather justify sending that unexpected highstorm (as Dalilar reflected, "had actively tried to murder" him and his men) ahead of the Everstorm, to just let the Voidbringers win at the Battle of Narak?

Even if he truly believes that Dalinar's Radiants would eventually kill their spren, just as happened in the Recreance and "your kind have brought nothing but death to mine", wouldn't losing 90% of radiant spren to a second Recreance be better than elimination?

And conversely - if Odium's victory will still leave Shadesmar and sentient spren around, just in a pre-humanity-on-Roshar way - why would they care so much?

People can be stupid regarding long-term vs short-term sometimes

[Karger]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

So how can Malata's spren "be fine with this" (the Diagram going over to Team Odium),

The diagram's goals would allow some spren to survive based on the continued existence of some Rosharans.

2 hours ago, robardin said:

or the honorspren still be so huffy and standoffish

We do not know their motivations and will not until RoW.

2 hours ago, robardin said:

Or how could the Stormfather justify sending that unexpected highstorm (as Dalilar reflected, "had actively tried to murder" him and his men) ahead of the Everstorm, to just let the Voidbringers win at the Battle of Narak?

The stormfather clearly stated his goals were to try clean up the area.  Stop thinking of him as a person he is a force of nature.  A part of a highstorm's ecological job is to clean up after carnage.  As such the stormfather felt the impulse to do so.

[+robardin]

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

The stormfather clearly stated his goals were to try clean up the area.  Stop thinking of him as a person he is a force of nature.  A part of a highstorm's ecological job is to clean up after carnage.  As such the stormfather felt the impulse to do so.

Oh, it was a bit more than that. As Dalinar considered it, the Stormfather "had actively tried to murder him and his entire army".

Syl said as much to Kaladin, "He brought the storm, rushing its pace. He's... broken, Kaladin. He doesn't think any of this [the Nahel bonds, the Final Desolation] should be happening. He wants to end it all, wash everyone away, and try to hide from the future." (As I read it: if the Alethi armies were swept away, even though Sadeas and the majority of other highprinces had not even come to Narak with their armies, the Stormfather hoped perhaps the war would end, the Parshendi would have no further reason to fight, and the Everstorm would not manifest.)

And he's certainly very fatalistic in talking to Dalinar after the Battle of Narak. YOU ARE DOOMED. -- GO, BONDSMITH. LEAD YOUR DYING PEOPLE TO FAILURE. ODIUM DESTROYED THE ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. YOU ARE NOTHING TO HIM.

That's not Force of Nature talk, that's a sentient mega-spren that knows what is on the cusp of happening and was trying to prevent it and thinks once it happened (the Everstorm) it's Game Over For Mankind.

[Karger]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

Oh, it was a bit more than that. As Dalinar considered it, the Stormfather "had actively tried to murder him and his entire army".

Where is that even from?

1 minute ago, robardin said:

brought the storm, rushing its pace. He's... broken, Kaladin. He doesn't think any of this [the Nahel bonds, the Final Desolation] should be happening. He wants to end it all, wash everyone away, and try to hide from the future

I believe it is better to think of him kind of like a person walking in on a pair of murders in 1920s Chicago.  An attitude of I have to get rid of all of this NOW or the consequences will be dire.  I don't want any part in what is going on. 

4 minutes ago, robardin said:

That's not Force of Nature talk, that's a sentient mega-spren that knows what is on the cusp of happening and was trying to prevent it and thinks once it happened (the Everstorm) it's Game Over For Mankind.

He is melodramatic not to mention grumpy.  Imagine a black whole was approaching our solar system and you decided to go talk to the sun's spren.  It would probably have the same attitude.  YOU ARE A LITTLE SPECK OF NOTHING.  THIS THING HAS KILLED SEVERAL OF MY FRIENDS.  WE ARE DEAD.  THERE IS NOTHING TO BE DONE.  Also keep in mind that the stormfather while unbonded can't do much but send storms. 

[+robardin]

12 minutes ago, Karger said:

Where is that even from?

Dalinar's own thoughts, when bonding the Stormfather after the Battle of Narak on the "rooftop" of Urithiru.

Quote

"I need you," Dalinar said. "Despite what you did. The bridgeman spoke of oaths given, and of each order of knights being different. The First Ideal is the same. After that, each order is unique, requiring different Words."

The thunder rumbled. It sounded . . . like a challenge. Could Dalinar interpret thunder now?

This was a dangerous gambit. He confronted something primal, something unknowable. Something that had actively tried to murder him and his entire army.

"Fortunately," Dalinar said, "I know the second oath I am to make. I don't need to be told it. I will unite instead of divide, Stormfather. I will bring men together."

Where the "what you did" that he accuses the Stormfather of, who does not deny it, was:

Quote

"You sent that storm to destroy us!" he shouted towards the clouds. "You sent it to cover up what Shallan, and then Kaladin, were becoming! You tried to end this before it could begin!"

Silence.

"Why send me visions and tell me to prepare!" Dalinar shouted. "Then try to destroy us when we listen to them?"

And then the Stormfather basically replies as Honor's remnant he was forced to send the Bondsmith visions to tell Dalinar to prepare to fight Odium by refounding or gathering the Knights Radiant ("speak again the ancient oaths and return to men the Shards they once bore..."), but he personally would prefer that not happen. And clearly, had taken deadly steps towards trying to make that not happen.

12 minutes ago, Karger said:

I believe it is better to think of him kind of like a person walking in on a pair of murders in 1920s Chicago.  An attitude of I have to get rid of all of this NOW or the consequences will be dire.  I don't want any part in what is going on. 

He is melodramatic not to mention grumpy.  Imagine a black whole was approaching our solar system and you decided to go talk to the sun's spren.  It would probably have the same attitude.  YOU ARE A LITTLE SPECK OF NOTHING.  THIS THING HAS KILLED SEVERAL OF MY FRIENDS.  WE ARE DEAD.  THERE IS NOTHING TO BE DONE.  Also keep in mind that the stormfather while unbonded can't do much but send storms. 

Yes, he can "only" send highstorms... But sending an unexpected highstorm, with the explicit (and admitted) intention of "washing away" the Alethi army, is hardly "I don't want any part of this", it's "I want to have a part of this, and that part is to try to prevent it even if it seems impossible and involves intentionally trying to cause people's death". The Stormfather was pulling a Nale, basically (not that he cares about killing people in highstorms - "that just a thing that happens", to him).

Edited September 11, 2020 by robardin

[Karger]

34 minutes ago, robardin said:

And then the Stormfather basically replies as Honor's remnant he was forced to send the Bondsmith visions to tell Dalinar to prepare to fight Odium by refounding or gathering the Knights Radiant ("speak again the ancient oaths and return to men the Shards they once bore..."), but he personally would prefer that not happen. And clearly, had taken deadly steps towards trying to make that not happen.

It is understandable that if you think a lost cause is happening that you would rather these puny humans die without killing your own people first.

35 minutes ago, robardin said:

Yes, he can "only" send highstorms... But sending an unexpected highstorm, with the explicit (and admitted) intention of "washing away" the Alethi army, is hardly "I don't want any part of this", it's "I want to have a part of this, and that part is to try to prevent it even if it seems impossible and involves intentionally trying to cause people's death".

Syl's own analysis states that is inaccurate.  He is trying to break the chessboard.  Stop the game from ever starting.  Wash it all away.  He does not want the voidbringers to win he wants everyone in the physical realm to loose.

[Frustration]

@robardin you have to remember that the Stormfather isn't fully intelligent until bonding.

[Djerf]

I think I remember that the fused learned to tame the surges later on, basically becoming more and more spren like after each death. It's reasonable to assume that the other enemies were weaker as well but they all kept getting stronger.

The Radiant spren are like the children of Honor, and cultivation, and it is logical that they would follow Honors example, in essence trying to grow up and become like dad. Then dad died and a significant reason for his death was his choice to side with humans, after the death of dad the spren stayed with mankind untill they themselves were betrayed.

Now a significant amount of time has passed and the spren has a thriving civilization, way more so than they ever had when they were allied to the humans. 

I doubt that Odium went to shadesmar, turned on the realm-wide loudspeaker and declared his intention to kill every spren there. Most likely Odium and his agents claim to spare those who don't intervene in his grudge with mankind.

 

[Vessel of Theory]

@Djerf, I think you have a good point(or two). Odium is not willing to let any more shards of Honor remain, which means most of the spren are going to have to go. However, we've seen that Sja-Anat, a splinter of Odium, is able to "corrupt" sapient spren. If a splinter can do it, is it so hard to believe that the whole cannot? It's been quite a while since I read OB, so I don't remember too much about Glys and what's "wrong" with him. 

Does anyone know what the Truthwatcher spren are? I'm pretty sure the wiki doesn't answer that question, so I'm more just hoping I guess.

Odium can't let any more splinters of Honor exist, and I'll bet this is in no small part because of the Stormfather helping Dalinar, however redundantly.

It's possible, I think(but I'm not sure) that the Radiant spren have gained so much Identity as, well, Radiant spren, that at least a portion of them are stuck there(like the Stick is just a stick, stormlight or no). I'm not sure if at the end of OB we're told whether the spren are reluctant to join the Radiants again or not. 

@Frustration You've definitely got a point there. Syl is still gaining sentience/sapience, even after being bonded for so long. Was this affected by Kaladin breaking his oath, then reswearing it? 

Syl has every reason to hate Odium - she is of Honor, literally an honorspren, and Odium freaking killed Honor. Not all the spren are going to be convinced that the Radiants are the way to go, especially if they think it's a lost cause, but there will be some who are so against Odium that they'll do almost anything to stop him.

[Frustration]

9 minutes ago, Falkir said:

Does anyone know what the Truthwatcher spren are? I'm pretty sure the wiki doesn't answer that question, so I'm more just hoping I guess.

no one KNOWS but it's reasonable to assume keenspren.

 

[Vessel of Theory]

Are the keenspren of Honor or Cultivation?

On a side note, would the spren be willing to have a kind of civil war between them, with Honor's spren and Odium's spren as the two main factions?

[+Bzhydack]

22 minutes ago, Falkir said:

Are the keenspren of Honor or Cultivation?

All spren are of Honor and Cultivation, but with various ratio. Some have larger part of Honors (Honorspren or Highspren) some larger part of Cultivation (Cultivationspren) but all of them have parts from both.

Also, spren arent one-minded. Remember, Honorspren try to conquer Shadesmar once.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Bzhydack

[Vessel of Theory]

All spren? Sorry, but I can't agree with that. What about the voidspren that the Parshendi bond to gain stormform?

1 minute ago, Bzhydack said:

All spren are of Honor and Cultivation, but with various ratio. Some have larger part of Honors (Honorspren or Highspren) some larger part of Cultivation (Cultivationspren) but all of them have parts from both.

That makes sense, I guess. But I think Odium has his own spren as well.

[+Bzhydack]

Just now, Falkir said:

All spren? Sorry, but I can't agree with that. What about the voidspren that the Parshendi bond to gain stormform?

That makes sense, I guess. But I think Odium has his own spren as well.

Ok, i was too general. Voidspren are of Odium, of course. But I think we are talking about Radiant Spren, and they are all of Honor and Cultivation. Lesser, "natural" mindless spren also.

BTW, Spren can be used as general term to describe living Investiture. In this sense, Seons are Spren of Devotion, Skaze are spren of Dominion, and Nightblood is artificial spren od Endovment with part od Ruin.

[Vessel of Theory]

Yeah, spren are basically highly concentrated Investiture. Thanks

So what's the deal with Glys? Let's say he was a keenspren, made from Cultivation and Honor. Truthwatchers aren't supposed to have futuresight, and Renarin's can interfere with Odium's. Glys was corrupted to Odium by Sja-Anat. Truthwatchers have the Surges of Progression and Illumination. Renarin has been seen healing people, but not creating illusions. Is it possible that the "Voidish" Surge of Illumination is futuresight? 

I guess what I'm trying to point at is that Glys has Connection to Odium... This relates to earlier posts because its an example of Radiant spren being bonded to a Radiant who's against Odium and Odium, somehow. Any thoughts?

[Aspiring Writer]

@robardin Basically, the stormfather in his more primal force of nature way of thinking, because he hadn't become bonded to start empathizing with humans yet, saw the Voidbringer summoning a storm and the humans failing miserably was like, "Alright, screw it, these Humans are useless anyways, I'm just going to kill everything on this battlefield and hope that fixes everything." He does not like humans, he does not like voidbringers, and he certainly doesn't like that another desolation is starting, so i think it's reasonable for him to be a little pessimistic with his tactics

9 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Ok, i was too general. Voidspren are of Odium, of course. But I think we are talking about Radiant Spren, and they are all of Honor and Cultivation. Lesser, "natural" mindless spren also.

BTW, Spren can be used as general term to describe living Investiture. In this sense, Seons are Spren of Devotion, Skaze are spren of Dominion, and Nightblood is artificial spren od Endovment with part od Ruin.

Nightblood is part Ruin? Is that why he's black, and can I have the WoB you got that from?

[+Bzhydack]

2 minutes ago, Falkir said:

Truthwatchers aren't supposed to have futuresight

We dont know this, but is some hint they may have:

Drawer 30-20: A particularly small emerald (Truthwatcher) CH 85

Spoiler

"Don't tell anyone. I can't say it. I must whisper. I foresaw this."

This is from gemstone archives.

Also, seing future is not only Odiums power, every Shard can do it, in fact, we know that Cultivation is VERY good at it. Also, we saw Shallan few times drawing near future, and she dont have Voidish powers.

I even have theory about it.

@Aspiring Writer

Quote

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)
#208 Share Copy

 

Play/Pause

 

Walin

Does Nightblood contain any of Ruin's Investiture? Like, not atium, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, technically; and I'm not wiggling around that, because technically, location in the Cosmere and who belongs to what gets really weird, right? Because Ruin's Investiture is everywhere--but I'm not talking that way. I'm talking the way you actually mean it. 

 

[+robardin]

21 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Nightblood is part Ruin? Is that why he's black, and can I have the WoB you got that from?

Well the WoB that is usually referenced on this may not mean quite what some people take it to mean, in my opinion.

Even though he basically says, it means what you think it means, he also hedged with the squidgy word "technically" to lead off with. So yes. The "power of Ruin" is somehow involved in what makes Nightblood special, and not in a general "a magic thing in the Cosmere created to destroy necessarily reflects Ruin".

Quote

Walin

Does Nightblood contain any of Ruin's Investiture? Like, not atium, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, technically; and I'm not wiggling around that, because technically, location in the Cosmere and who belongs to what gets really weird, right? Because Ruin's Investiture is everywhere--but I'm not talking that way. I'm talking the way you actually mean it. 

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

Some people think this means that there is somehow atium alloyed with the steel that was in Nightblood; others note that the Cosmere Timeline places Warbreaker between Era 1 and Era 2 of Mistborn,

(...oh, and I just realized this is in the general Stormlight Archive forum, so out of respect I'll spoiler the info here that references Big Reveals of Mistborn...)

Spoiler

 

theorize that the Manywar happened after Harmony's Ascension, and combine it with this one:

Quote

rags

How is Harmony balanced when a part of Preservation's power is expended on human sentience? Isn't that what caused all the trouble to begin with?

Brandon Sanderson

Indeed. Hm... What could Sazed be doing with that extra power...

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)

to then further posit that Harmony somehow divested himself of that "extra bit of Ruin" via Nightblood during its creation as a one-shot thing, which is why Nightblood is unique.

 

As for my take, ask me on a different day and I'll give you a different answer. I like both angles!

Edited October 23, 2020 by robardin

[Vessel of Theory]

3 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

We dont know this, but is some hint they may have:

Drawer 30-20: A particularly small emerald (Truthwatcher) CH 85

  Hide contents

"Don't tell anyone. I can't say it. I must whisper. I foresaw this."

This is from gemstone archives.

Also, seing future is not only Odiums power, every Shard can do it, in fact, we know that Cultivation is VERY good at it. Also, we saw Shallan few times drawing near future, and she dont have Voidish powers.

I even have theory about it.

@Aspiring Writer

 

I definitely want to hear the theory, that's like my thing. 

So then what are the effects of Glys being "corrupted" by Sja-Anat? Are they malicious at all? We know that Sja-Anat is talking about leaving Odium, but is that even possible for a shard of Odium?

If spren are just Investiture, and Shards are able to Invest things, could Odium start to just convert spaient spren en masse?

[Aspiring Writer]

2 minutes ago, Falkir said:

I definitely want to hear the theory, that's like my thing. 

So then what are the effects of Glys being "corrupted" by Sja-Anat? Are they malicious at all? We know that Sja-Anat is talking about leaving Odium, but is that even possible for a shard of Odium?

If spren are just Investiture, and Shards are able to Invest things, could Odium start to just convert spaient spren en masse?

splinter, not shard, spilters can make their own choices, and Odium probably could, though it's not as easy as it sounds, as investiture resists investiture

[Vessel of Theory]

Yay, someone who knows the words! Thank you!

1 minute ago, Aspiring Writer said:

splinter, not shard, spilters can make their own choices, and Odium probably could, though it's not as easy as it sounds, as investiture resists investiture

 

About the investiture vs. investiture thing though...

Spoiler

I think it was Bands of Mourning where we saw a huge amount of Investiture being wielded that enabled Wax to remove Hemalurgic spikes with Allomancy. Would it be a valid comparison to say that Odium is like Wax with the Bands and the spren are like Hemalurgic spikes? If so, couldn't Odium still break/convert the spren, since he just has so much Investiture? Or am I missing/misquoting things?

 

[Aspiring Writer]

2 minutes ago, Falkir said:

Yay, someone who knows the words! Thank you!

 

About the investiture vs. investiture thing though...

  Hide contents

I think it was Bands of Mourning where we saw a huge amount of Investiture being wielded that enabled Wax to remove Hemalurgic spikes with Allomancy. Would it be a valid comparison to say that Odium is like Wax with the Bands and the spren are like Hemalurgic spikes? If so, couldn't Odium still break/convert the spren, since he just has so much Investiture? Or am I missing/misquoting things?

 

That was Marisa, not Wax, yes it's similar and is it possible, however, to do it to every spern or even a large portion would be too difficult, and he wouldn't want to use up that much of hos power when he still has Shards to kill