Sad Kal

[Mistborn Surgebinder]

Sigh. 

Am I the only one exhausted by Kaladin having essentially the same struggle 4 books in? Like, I get that what he's been through sucks, but at the end of book 1, I thought he had dealt with it. He was like, "OK, good, I saved people!" And then he's still mopey in book 2, and now here we are, 4000 pages into the series, and moash can still tempt him with suicide? 

I don't know. I'd have thought that this far into the story arc, especially having supposedly dealt with it once or twice already, Kaladins arc could move to a different beat. But here we are, again, dealing with depression, again, being unable to deal with death, again. 

I AM really looking forward to where his character goes in RoW. Just something I noticed that was bugging me. Am I insensitive? 

[garlick]

That's the thing about depression. It hangs around. It may recede for a while but it comes back. It is a constant battle sometimes. Kal is STRESSED out, the people he loves most are put in constant danger because of him (as he sees it. They wouldn't be windrunners if it wasn't for him). just 1 death he feels he failed, and that failure is devastating to him. You don't get better overnight or even over years. I don't think kaladin will see much piece of mind until he swears the 4th oath and starts to let go.  

 

Wheel of time spoilers.

Spoiler

Like when rand finally let go and accepted he was rand, lews therin, and the dragon reborn. it gave him a new sense of mind. 

 

[notsawerd]

I think Brandon is doing a great job with the Kaladin character.  To me the way Kaladin is written makes him seem more like a real person and not just a bland fantasy archetype protoagonist.  Your sentiment seems to be a common one on the forum, but there are also a lot of people who have written Brandon who struggle with depression that have expressed to him how much it means to them that he wrote a character like Kaladin.  So it is definately a mixed bag from the readers.  At the end of the day you don't have to like every character to enjoy the series.

[Rai]

Whenever anyone asks if they're the only one who has [insert opinion here], no, you're not... you just have to check the main chapter discussion thread to see that a few people complained as well lmao. There's usually a few people who will agree, unless your opinion's really out there... Anyways, Kaladin never actually dealt with his core issues. He just managed to succeed at what he wanted in the first book, finally saving everyone he cares about, which allowed him to feel better for a while - but that never actually dealt with the fact that he can't always save everyone and his inability to come to terms with that. Kaladin has multiple issues that he's successfully distracted himself from and repressed, but as I see it, in book 4, they're all coming to a head; his lack of self-worth outside of being a soldier, not knowing when to let go and stop taking responsibility for the wellbeing of other people, et cetera... and his depression is always gonna be there at times and be an issue, not always for a specific reason, as it's a matter of brain chemistry that can't be controlled, but this time, the other unresolved conflicts Kaladin has within himself are compounding the depression. (I also have to add, there will always be the possibility that Kaladin might become suicidal because of his depression. Like... that's just how it works. It's not going to go away, it's something Kaladin will always have to deal with. It's not a simple matter of just feeling "mopey" from time to time, and I really dislike how that word keeps being used in relation to Kaladin.)

IMO, Brandon had Kaladin mentally hit rock bottom and be taken off duty for the purpose of taking his character in a different arc. If it was still looking like Kaladin would remain a depressed soldier, still unable to deal with fighting the Singers/handle losing people, and that would just continue for the entire book, then yeah, maybe I'd call the arc repetitive. But the author clearly intends to actually do something with Kaladin's issues and take him in a different direction that will likely finally allow him to self-reflect and heal in a way that may allow him to say the 4th Oath, so...

That said! I think it's fair if people feel emotionally drained or upset, because it is upsetting to see Kaladin like this. If it's not something you want to read, fair enough, and you're not insensitive for feeling that way. But I really do digress with the idea that Brandon still intends to follow the same story beats for Kaladin. 

Edited September 11, 2020 by Rai

[Mistborn Surgebinder]

32 minutes ago, notsawerd said:

I think Brandon is doing a great job with the Kaladin character.  To me the way Kaladin is written makes him seem more like a real person and not just a bland fantasy archetype protoagonist.  Your sentiment seems to be a common one on the forum, but there are also a lot of people who have written Brandon who struggle with depression that have expressed to him how much it means to them that he wrote a character like Kaladin.  So it is definately a mixed bag from the readers.  At the end of the day you don't have to like every character to enjoy the series.

Don't get me wrong. I love kaladin. I've just never struggled with depression, and if people who do struggle with it think BranSan is writing it well, then I trust him. 

I get and appreciate what people are saying. I just wasn't expecting such an emotional Rollercoaster again this close to the beginning of the book. That being said, I love and adore Syl reacting to it all. 

[Subvisual Haze]

As someone with recurrent depression I actually find Kaladin's sections strangely encouraging.  He has the same type of defective brain that I do, suffers through similar annoying and recurrent symptoms, and endures.  Despite it all he's still a hero, still helping people, still (mostly) doing his job.  

I 100% understand why many would find his chapters draining or repetitive though.  And I don't think you're being insensitive at all!

Oddly enough I think there is a deeper depression empathy projection occurring than people reading these POVs may realize.  A lot of the things that readers don't enjoy about Kaladin's POVs mirror the very thoughts that depressed people feel towards themselves. Am I never going to get better? Am I stuck in place while everyone around me moves forward?  etc.  

 

[+Bliev]

10 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Oddly enough I think there is a deeper depression empathy projection occurring than people reading these POVs may realize.  A lot of the things that readers don't enjoy about Kaladin's POVs mirror the very thoughts that depressed people feel towards themselves. Am I never going to get better? Am I stuck in place while everyone around me moves forward?  etc.  

 

I love this interpretation. That a reader's own exhaustion is actually mirroring Kal's personal exhaustion, which is a testament to our deep empathy for this fantasy character who exists only on a page. That's a great way to put it. 

[Mistborn Surgebinder]

To be quite honest, what I'm learning from you guys about this actually makes me appreciate kaladin POVs more. I never thought of it as Kal dealing with actual depression. I'm used to heroes having their thing they have to overcome, overcoming it, and moving on to the next thing. Considering what you all are saying, it makes him so much more realistic, and while I don't relate to him as a character in that way, I think may make interacting with people in real life with this issue... Not easier, but... More understandable. 

[Master Silver]

2020 is a rough year to read about one of your favorite characters being depressed. I do hope we get something more cheery. I certainly could use it

[agrabes]

5 hours ago, Rai said:

Whenever anyone asks if they the only one who has [insert opinion here], no, you're not... you just have to check the main chapter discussion thread to see that a few people complained as well lmao. There's usually a few people who will agree, unless your opinion's really out there... Anyways, Kaladin never actually dealt with his core issues. He just managed to succeed at what he wanted in the first book, finally saving everyone he cares about, which allowed him to feel better for a while - but that never actually dealt with the fact that he can't always save everyone and his inability to come to terms with that. Kaladin has multiple issues that he's successfully distracted himself from and repressed, but as I see it, in book 4, they're all coming to a head; his lack of self-worth outside of being a soldier, not knowing when to let go and stop taking responsibility for the wellbeing of other people, et cetera... and his depression is always gonna be there at times and be an issue, not always for a specific reason, as it's a matter of brain chemistry that can't be controlled, but this time, the other unresolved conflicts Kaladin has within himself are compounding the depression. (I also have to add, there will always be the possibility that Kaladin might become suicidal because of his depression. Like... that's just how it works. It's not going to go away, it's something Kaladin will always have to deal with. It's not a simple matter of just feeling "mopey" from time to time, and I really dislike how that word keeps being used in relation to Kaladin.)

IMO, Brandon had Kaladin mentally hit rock bottom and be taken off duty for the purpose of taking his character in a different arc. If it was still looking like Kaladin would remain a depressed soldier, still unable to deal with fighting the Singers/handle losing people, and that would just continue for the entire book, then yeah, maybe I'd call the arc repetitive. But the author clearly intends to actually do something with Kaladin's issues and take him in a different direction that will likely finally allow him to self-reflect and heal in a way that may allow him to say the 4th Oath, so...

That said! I think it's fair if people feel emotionally drained or upset, because it is upsetting to see Kaladin like this. If it's not something you want to read, fair enough, and you're not insensitive for feeling that way. But I really do digress with the idea that Brandon still intends to follow the same story beats for Kaladin. 

I think this is an excellent description of what's going on.  I think in a way, Kaladin is almost Sanderson giving his thoughts on depresssion.

We see Kaladin trying the same thing over and over to escape his depression and depressed feelings.  It works for a while at first, but the bad feelings come back because as you said he never addressed the root problem.  He gets diminishing returns each time.  First he saves Bridge 4 and that makes him feel better for a while.  Then, he saves Dalinar and learns to get over some of his prejudices against lighteyes and he feels better.  But he can't just keep saving people.  He comes to learn in OB that he can't save everyone.  So he sees that what he is doing won't work anymore.  And just like real life people who suffer from depression, it takes a conscious choice that you are going to do something different to really break out of the cycle.  He's now being given the opportunity to make that choice.  

Really, I see this scene with Dalinar as super positive.  He's being forced to make a change, which is the only way he can get better.  Kaladin's a smart guy, but his nature is to charge forward and move on to the next problem rather than think about how to make things better.  He's now been given a real opportunity for self reflection for the second time all series (the first self reflection was when Shallan forced him to realize how his views on lighteyes were often wrong, which led to significant personal growth for Kaladin and was one of my personal favorite scenes in the book).  I think we'll see him forced work out why he keeps struggling so much mentally and that work will be super rewarding to read.

[Rainier]

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

I think this is an excellent description of what's going on.  I think in a way, Kaladin is almost Sanderson giving his thoughts on depresssion.

This is probably also why it gets so tedious. I don't care what Brandon has to say about depression. I care about fantastical power armor and giant magical swords and demi-gods fighting other demi-gods. It's nice that he's doing something a little more realistic instead of succumbing to seterotypes, but it has become the cart before the horse. I care about Kaladin's depression because he's a mythical Knight Radiant. I don't care about the Knight Radiants because I love Kal and identify with his depression.

It's a matter of whether this aspect is serving the greater story, or if the story is serving this narrow aspect. The latter is the source of the complaints you're hearing, that the story itself is being hijacked by the DSM, instead of the DSM being used to flesh out the story.

[ftl]

In the case of the story of Knights Radiant, it is basically impossible to separate the "character growth parts" from the "fantasy magic parts" because the core fundamental principles of how the Knights Radiant magic works boil down to "have character growth to obtain more powers". Kal (and Shallan, and Szeth, and Dalinar, and the rest) have to grow as a people to swear ever harder oaths to get bigger and more epic magic powers.

The high fantasy lets the internal character development have a visible outward component. When he overcomes his hate for Lighteyes and protects Elhokar, or when Teft finds it in him to care for himself, they get cool swords out of it. But saying "forget all those troubled characters, let's just see magical power armor and giant swords" isn't how this story has ever worked.

Edited September 10, 2020 by ftl

[+Bliev]

3 hours ago, Rainier said:

It's a matter of whether this aspect is serving the greater story, or if the story is serving this narrow aspect. The latter is the source of the complaints you're hearing, that the story itself is being hijacked by the DSM, instead of the DSM being used to flesh out the story.

I don't see, personally, how the story has become his depression outside of the story. It's literally the reason he can't progress and get more powers--which spirals into further distance and growth he has to traverse to get there. I also take issue with the idea that we care about Kaladin because he's a mythical Knight Radiant--I think we care about Kal long before he's a Knight Radiant because he's a well written, complex character on a path to personal growth. It so happens, as @ftl mentions above, that in this fantasy context, personal growth = powers, so we are definitely spending more time tryng to figure oout how Kal will grow next. But I think, as I said on another thread, that much of the hand wringing about Kal's depression is really just because we're over analyzing 1 chapter a week, when really, Brandon got Kal to a new pivot point in his character at a relatively quick 10 chapter pace (it's just taken us a month to read). But maybe that's just me.

[Calderis]

As someone who suffers from depression myself the sentiment that Kaladin should get over it is mildly infuriating... But I understand it. 

Here's the thing. The frustration that you feel when you read Kaladin and he's falling back into the same cycle? Those of us who suffer feel it to, about ourselves. The people who love us feel it, and it's hard for them, harder than for us in some ways. 

The frustration is natural. I can't speak for Brandon, but I think that the frustration is intentional. It's what someone who loves someone with depression is bound to feel at times, and we all love Kal. 

That said, I think one way or another this shift will be good for Kal. He needs some new coping mechanisms to deal with this when it happens... And he needs to allow the people who care for him in. He has a support network. He needs to let them support him. 

[StanLemon]

18 minutes ago, Calderis said:

As someone who suffers from depression myself the sentiment that Kaladin should get over it is mildly infuriating... But I understand it. 

Here's the thing. The frustration that you feel when you read Kaladin and he's falling back into the same cycle? Those of us who suffer feel it to, about ourselves. The people who love us feel it, and it's hard for them, harder than for us in some ways. 

The frustration is natural. I can't speak for Brandon, but I think that the frustration is intentional. It's what someone who loves someone with depression is bound to feel at times, and we all love Kal. 

That said, I think one way or another this shift will be good for Kal. He needs some new coping mechanisms to deal with this when it happens... And he needs to allow the people who care for him in. He has a support network. He needs to let them support him. 

I love the way you put this. As someone who also goes through cyclical depression Kaladin is a breath of fresh air. I hope Kaladin's arc helps people come to understand the issues people have with depression. It isn't something people "just get over" and people who don't understand that get frustrated with depressed people because they don't understand it.

[Djerf]

I think that these few chapters were not good ones to read one a week, the most exciting thing is basically a bloodless fight that we care very little for and it's given us action fatigue on top of the fact that the main viewpoint character is depressed and focusing on his navel gazing. 

I mean I get it, Kalladin was deep in an episode during WoR and in OB his arc was basically to fail and be underwhelming. On top of that depression can be one of the most undramatic mental illnesses to read about as it tends to drive people towards nothing as it can feel like there's no point to anything, nothing in life is joyous at best it is tedious. 

That said I agree that depressed kal is not interesting, the interesting, and important, thing is Kalladin coping with his depression a healthy and fruitful way. This brings me back to my first statement, the first chapters were not good ones to consume in such a controlled way. 

The upside is that the story is now moving in a way that will force Kalladin to interact with his problems more directly than he has probably done in his entire life. (as a side note Shallans story is also showing tendencies to actually start moving in meaningful ways.) Kalladin will still be depressed and most likely struggle with that for majority of the book at least indirectly, but he will get a goal to devote himself to and while doing that he will hopefully forget at times that he had got to be depressed because he is depressed and start to break the harmful cycle that is his need to save everyone in the whole world. 

 

[agrabes]

18 hours ago, Rainier said:

This is probably also why it gets so tedious. I don't care what Brandon has to say about depression. I care about fantastical power armor and giant magical swords and demi-gods fighting other demi-gods. It's nice that he's doing something a little more realistic instead of succumbing to seterotypes, but it has become the cart before the horse. I care about Kaladin's depression because he's a mythical Knight Radiant. I don't care about the Knight Radiants because I love Kal and identify with his depression.

It's a matter of whether this aspect is serving the greater story, or if the story is serving this narrow aspect. The latter is the source of the complaints you're hearing, that the story itself is being hijacked by the DSM, instead of the DSM being used to flesh out the story.

I wouldn't take it so far as saying the story is being hijacked by the DSM.  In terms of Kaladin and his depression - it's such a common thing and so logical for someone with Kaladin's life experiences to have that I think it's great to capture it in a good way.  In terms of Shallan, I'm not so sure that was a great choice.  But, that's just my opinion.

I think it just comes down to what type of fan you are.  For me, I love the character interactions and their emotions as much as if not more than the fantastical power armor and giant magical swords.  So, I love stuff like Kaladin's depression because it's widely relatable and feels real.  And I feel like Sanderson walks the line well between making it annoying enough to be meaningful but not making the depression so deep and crushing it just makes you feel bad to read.  I love Robin Hobb, and feel like the way she wrote FitzChivalry Farseer as a sad and lonely guy who still got stuff done when you needed him was an excellent example of this.  I also read the books during a time in my life when I was living alone in a new town without a lot of friends, so it really resonated with me.  But on the other hand I think she went on the wrong side of the line with her Soldier's Son trilogy.  The protagonist was just too miserable.

[Rainier]

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

I wouldn't take it so far as saying the story is being hijacked by the DSM.

No, me neither, and I hope it stays that way. I agree with you that it currently seems more applicable to Shallan than to Kaladin.

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

I love Robin Hobb, and feel like the way she wrote FitzChivalry Farseer as a sad and lonely guy who still got stuff done when you needed him was an excellent example of this. 

If Kaladin were written like Fitz, I don't think we'd be having this conversation. I love Sanderson, but his characters have never been among his strengths.

Don't get me wrong. I love Kaladin. He is easily my favorite character in these books, and it was his story that made me fall in love with the series. I have no problems with him having depression. His near-suicide where Syl brings him the poison leaf to cheer him up was a fantastic scene and made him relatable to me while still carrying the emotional weight it needed. But he was never just depressed, and his depression was never the whole or even the most important part of his character. But that scene where he's about to give up hope isn't there to make a point about depression, it's there to serve his character. It needs to be there so when he does have hope, when he's offered the chance to escape, we're rooting for him to take it, which is what we need to be doing so when he goes back for Dalinar on the Tower we feel that moment with the appropriate impact.

What gets me annoyed is the difference between, here's Kaladin, our main character, he's a former soldier now slave battling his depression, to, here's Kaladin, our Main Character With Clinical Depression. There's a flanderization that's happening as this single aspect of his character is reinforced.

20 hours ago, Bliev said:

that much of the hand wringing about Kal's depression is really just because we're over analyzing 1 chapter a week

If I were reading this as a complete book, I'd spend a few minutes reading chapter 10, then a few minutes on 11, then a few minutes on 12, and so on. Instead, a whole week spent on a single chapter makes you focus on only those things that happen in that chapter, and makes it harder to string the narrative segments into a coherent whole. So yes, in chapter 10, it feels like we're getting Kaladin, our Main Character With Depression, because you can't make every scene serve every purpose. This scene is serving one purpose. There are other scenes which serve other aspects of his character, but right now, and for the last four days, we can't move on from Kaladin Is Depressed because there's not yet more story to move on to. Being forced to wait has its advantages and disadvantages. 

[clockworkspider]

1 hour ago, Rainier said:

No, me neither, and I hope it stays that way. I agree with you that it currently seems more applicable to Shallan than to Kaladin.

If Kaladin were written like Fitz, I don't think we'd be having this conversation. I love Sanderson, but his characters have never been among his strengths.

Don't get me wrong. I love Kaladin. He is easily my favorite character in these books, and it was his story that made me fall in love with the series. I have no problems with him having depression. His near-suicide where Syl brings him the poison leaf to cheer him up was a fantastic scene and made him relatable to me while still carrying the emotional weight it needed. But he was never just depressed, and his depression was never the whole or even the most important part of his character. But that scene where he's about to give up hope isn't there to make a point about depression, it's there to serve his character. It needs to be there so when he does have hope, when he's offered the chance to escape, we're rooting for him to take it, which is what we need to be doing so when he goes back for Dalinar on the Tower we feel that moment with the appropriate impact.

What gets me annoyed is the difference between, here's Kaladin, our main character, he's a former soldier now slave battling his depression, to, here's Kaladin, our Main Character With Clinical Depression. There's a flanderization that's happening as this single aspect of his character is reinforced.

If I were reading this as a complete book, I'd spend a few minutes reading chapter 10, then a few minutes on 11, then a few minutes on 12, and so on. Instead, a whole week spent on a single chapter makes you focus on only those things that happen in that chapter, and makes it harder to string the narrative segments into a coherent whole. So yes, in chapter 10, it feels like we're getting Kaladin, our Main Character With Depression, because you can't make every scene serve every purpose. This scene is serving one purpose. There are other scenes which serve other aspects of his character, but right now, and for the last four days, we can't move on from Kaladin Is Depressed because there's not yet more story to move on to. Being forced to wait has its advantages and disadvantages. 

While I disagree with you regarding Kaladin's depression taking away from his readability, I agree with you about the chapter-by-chapter drip feed distorting our ability to appreciate the story we're getting..

[Crylorenzo]

23 minutes ago, clockworkspider said:

While I disagree with you regarding Kaladin's depression taking away from his readability, I agree with you about the chapter-by-chapter drip feed distorting our ability to appreciate the story we're getting..

I agree with this. The character is believable if we consider what happened in Oathbringer. While he had a triumphant fight bringing down Amaram and talking about being the spear that wouldn't break etc, immediately prior to this he had his 2nd breakdown of the book (1st when Elhokar dies, 2nd when he can't swear the 4th ideal). It's natural for characters to slide backwards a bit offscreen between books (because life as usual can lead to complacency). If you've read The Prydain Chronicles you can see how the main character there grows each book in significant ways and then slides back part way at the beginning of the next book only to surpass what he had learned in the first book by the end of the 2nd and so forth. I think we see the same thing happening with each of our main characters.

And were all the chapters given to us at once this would be bad because we'd all by done with the book already (let's be honest) and we'd see his growth already and hopefully be satisfied. I wish we still got 2 chapters each week, but even then it's hard to see Kaladin so down and then think of him as down for a whole week while waiting for the next chapter only for the progress to be non-existant yet or minimal at best. But we'll get there and it'll be awesome.

[Harbour]

I see OP's point. Depression is the thing that cant just gone, but at the same time its fiction fantasy story. It supposed to entertain and to create great characters to enjoy reading about.

In case of Kaladin the realism of his mental health at some point started to overwhelm his character. While its still kind of interesting to read about his struggles with depression, i find his WoR and partly OB versions way more enjoyable to read about, when he had stuff to do and struggle with morality problems, not mental health one.

His arc kinda feels like the fight against his own shadow. It cant just end. It wont end. And to read about this sucks. Because i love Kaladin whenever he broods because something actually pissed him off, not because of mental health problems.

I love his character. I will follow him for sure. I see why some people like how Brandon realistically depicted him and why some people like it because they can relate to him.

I also see why some people want Brandon to tone down Kaladin's depression for sake of more enjoyable character progression. Love and care of close people help with depression. Kaladin has plenty of it. Let him embrace it.

Edited September 12, 2020 by Harbour

[Subvisual Haze]

21 hours ago, clockworkspider said:

While I disagree with you regarding Kaladin's depression taking away from his readability, I agree with you about the chapter-by-chapter drip feed distorting our ability to appreciate the story we're getting..

Yep, I was thinking the same thing.  The weekly chapter by chapter release makes this particular kind of arc feel much more drawn out than it would otherwise.

[Innovation]

As I have stated in another thread, all we have are (as of right now) ten chapters. And as mentioned in this thread, we are getting these chapters one a week. Kaladin’s arc could very well change a lot, and in a relatively short time. In the Way of Kings annotations, found here: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/255/#e7110, Brandon has stated how inactive characters are considered by many to be boring. You can’t have a character, especially a main viewpoint character, doing very little of interest. What I believe we will see as in the book is that Kaladin gets a mission. He will complete the mission, but will still have his depression during it. It just won’t always show. He might negotiate with Honorspren or fight with Fused, but the depression will still be there. That is what we saw in the first few chapters here. Kaladin fought, but always with a bit of tiredness with him. As with in the Way of Kings, Kaladin will have a goal. While he strives to complete that goal, he will work on his depression, and hopefully swear the Fourth Ideal in the process.  

[I Am A Fish]

The problem is that depression isn't fun.*

This is coming from someone who has had mental health issues in the past. 

While Kaladin is a really compelling character, and also very realistic**,  his POV's can be really painful to read. It would be nice if Kal, could have a period where things get noticeably better, and it stays that way for a while. I wouldn't want Sanderson to cut out the struggle***, but reading about depression can be pretty painful. I like the fact that Sanderson includes main characters with mental health issues, it gives his story a sense of realism, and I do find it strangely comforting to read about Kal's struggles. But his POV's can also be really painful, and it would be nice if there were some periods where his depression wasn't looming over everything he did.**** *****

*This should be obvious

**one of the reasons Sanderson is so good is he tries to portray mental health issues realistically

***It's part of why Kaladin is such a good character

****This isn't unrealistic

*****Sorry for all the footnotes

[agrabes]

23 hours ago, I Used To Be A Fish said:

The problem is that depression isn't fun.*

This is coming from someone who has had mental health issues in the past. 

While Kaladin is a really compelling character, and also very realistic**,  his POV's can be really painful to read. It would be nice if Kal, could have a period where things get noticeably better, and it stays that way for a while. I wouldn't want Sanderson to cut out the struggle***, but reading about depression can be pretty painful. I like the fact that Sanderson includes main characters with mental health issues, it gives his story a sense of realism, and I do find it strangely comforting to read about Kal's struggles. But his POV's can also be really painful, and it would be nice if there were some periods where his depression wasn't looming over everything he did.**** *****

*This should be obvious

**one of the reasons Sanderson is so good is he tries to portray mental health issues realistically

***It's part of why Kaladin is such a good character

****This isn't unrealistic

*****Sorry for all the footnotes

Yes, I think that's important to point out and part of why I think it's much easier to have a character with depression vs. other kinds of mental illnesses.  With depression, while it's always there, if it's well managed you can have long periods of "good" times where the depression is not as much in the foreground.  Doesn't mean it's gone, just that you're able to handle it.  I'm not sure this is the case with other mental health issues, though I'm not expert.  I think we've seen Kaladin doing well with his depression in WoR and early OB, but we've seen him on a downward slope now since early-mid OB.  It's time for him to turn it around and I think we will see that happen in RoW.