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RoW Chapter 10 Discussion


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43 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I don't think it's quite as simple as you're making it.  It's not either "The Heavenly Ones" are totally good guys or totally evil treacherous snakes.  It's that the Heavenly Ones are "Lawful Evil" moral alignment.  They're both good in some ways and bad in others. 

...

Overall, I think there's enough there to say we should be suspicious, but not enough to say we should definitely believe that everything the Heavenly Ones are doing is an elaborate ruse designed to break the Windrunners.  I think there's also plenty of evidence to say that there is at least some parallel between the Windrunners and Heavenly Ones.

I like what you posted, and agree to the points made - I didn't mean to say the Heavenly Ones are "evil treacherous snakes", I was mainly rebutting (rebuttaling? speaking to?) posts from other people (perhaps not in this thread) that I felt made a few too many parallels between them and the Windrunners based on the surface similarities in their behavior.

And my main observation still stands: the way that Leshwi presented herself to Kaladin, for example appearing to be angry at another (non-H1) Fused attacking human civilians to the point of breaking off her duel with him and telling him to go set things right, feels very much like she knows what he, Kaladin Stormblessed, would like to see in an enemy and is feeding it to him with a spoon. (Also recall that her close relationship with Vyre/Moash means she has particular insight into Kaladin's mind as well.)

That, on top of what we see Moash having done in the manor, as well what Moash proceeds to do with/to Kaladin (not attack him, but mess with his head), feels like the real game plan involves... Well, involves messing with Kaladin's head, not just to attack and to kill him. For a reason we don't know yet.

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7 hours ago, robardin said:

That, on top of what we see Moash having done in the manor, as well what Moash proceeds to do with/to Kaladin (not attack him, but mess with his head), feels like the real game plan involves... Well, involves messing with Kaladin's head, not just to attack and to kill him. For a reason we don't know yet.

I think the real game plan for Odium is to limit the involvement of the Honorspren, who are deeply divided against allying again with the humans who they view as treacherous.  The best way to do that is not to kill all the soft meatbags that bond with the Honorspren, because they can always find more soft meatbags to bond with.

The way to do that is to remind the Honorspren of the Recreance, and convince the large majority of them that the humans are no more trustworthy to hold their bonds than they were previously.  With Sylphrena being a celebrity Honorspren, her death (again) at the hands of Kaladin breaking more oaths due to worsening depression would pretty much seal the deal for the rest of the Honorspren on the fence, IMO.

In that vein, I don't think Moash really wanted Kaladin to kill himself right then and there.  He just wants to send him on the downward spiral that will lead to broken oaths.

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11 hours ago, Govir said:

My understanding was that they tried added wings for stability,

Larger structures for a purpose for which they usually use fins? The Alethi use arrows.

11 hours ago, Govir said:

but it created lift. So instead they added fins. (Emphasis on difference between wings and fins).

Navani is not in zero-g. So only the capsule is lashed, not the cargo. Needing added lift to offset that is logical in principle. The problem is that the lift generated depends on speed and angle-of-attack.  Consequently control issues arise. It looks to me like the Alethi do know about aerodynamic lift, but it is a shallow theoretical understanding.

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7 hours ago, Sparks said:

I think the real game plan for Odium is to limit the involvement of the Honorspren, who are deeply divided against allying again with the humans who they view as treacherous.  The best way to do that is not to kill all the soft meatbags that bond with the Honorspren, because they can always find more soft meatbags to bond with.

The way to do that is to remind the Honorspren of the Recreance, and convince the large majority of them that the humans are no more trustworthy to hold their bonds than they were previously.  With Sylphrena being a celebrity Honorspren, her death (again) at the hands of Kaladin breaking more oaths due to worsening depression would pretty much seal the deal for the rest of the Honorspren on the fence, IMO.

In that vein, I don't think Moash really wanted Kaladin to kill himself right then and there.  He just wants to send him on the downward spiral that will lead to broken oaths.

This is very plausible - in which case, the "paired dueling" thing would have a secondary purpose, to take away any obvious urgency that might be imparted by the outnumbering of full Windrunners (who can summon Blades) by Heavenly Ones. They can't use "we're getting killed faster than we can train up!" angle to plea for more honorspren, if the Heavenly Ones are carefully avoiding crossing that line.

The Windrunners think it's about honor to the enemy, and the Fused don't mind them thinking it is - I'm sure they enjoy it as well - but I don't think they're holding back from using their advantage of numerical superiority purely out of a sense of fairness, but tactically.

I mean when Leshwi first "met" Moash, she was coming down to kill what as far as she knew were simply three or four human refugees, not knowing there would be two Full Shardbearers in their party in Graves and Moash: they were surprised and excited to find the Shardplate in the wagon. Multiple flying Fused ("Heavenly Ones") doing that kind of work? And flying in and killing Graves from behind? Is that honorable in the way that Kaladin is starting to believe that they are? I don't think so.

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1 hour ago, robardin said:

The Windrunners think it's about honor to the enemy, and the Fused don't mind them thinking it is - I'm sure they enjoy it as well - but I don't think they're holding back from using their advantage of numerical superiority purely out of a sense of fairness, but tactically.

Yes, there is way more going on here than what Kal thinks is going on. And I think it's his trauma and wishful thinking here, that maybe there's something he can lash onto in this crazy depressing world. I think Leshwi's orders are pretty much "distract the Windrunner; lead him to Moash" who has been selected for a specific purpose. A targeted strike on what they see as one of the Alethi's most dangerous leaders. 

9 hours ago, Sparks said:

The way to do that is to remind the Honorspren of the Recreance, and convince the large majority of them that the humans are no more trustworthy to hold their bonds than they were previously.  With Sylphrena being a celebrity Honorspren, her death (again) at the hands of Kaladin breaking more oaths due to worsening depression would pretty much seal the deal for the rest of the Honorspren on the fence, IMO.

I hadn't thought about this, but it fits very well. It also makes me wonder if there's a whole shadow revolution/movement afoot in shadesmar that our poor Alethi warlords are clueless about. The missing honorspren, the highspren and dust bringer spren hating humans--I think people still don't realize the communities of spren that exist in shadesmar and how organized they are (how much information have they gathered in the intervening year from Wyndle and Pattern, for instance, or Ivory even?). Odium was doing big things in Shadesmar in OB--almost a coup of sorts: regulating trade, patrols, etc. Propaganda is surely being used as well. 

It makes me lean more toward the idea that Navani's critic is a spren, actually, and that this is all connected.

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2 minutes ago, Bliev said:

It also makes me wonder if there's a whole shadow revolution/movement afoot in shadesmar that our poor Alethi warlords are clueless about. The missing honorspren, the highspren and dust bringer spren hating humans--I think people still don't realize the communities of spren that exist in shadesmar and how organized they are (how much information have they gathered in the intervening year from Wyndle and Pattern, for instance, or Ivory even?). Odium was doing big things in Shadesmar in OB--almost a coup of sorts: regulating trade, patrols, etc. Propaganda is surely being used as well.

I started a thread on the regular (non-RoW-spoiler) Stormlight Archive forum because it's something one could discuss just from having read through Oathbringer, but it has particular relevance with what we see in RoW that the majority of honorspren are still holding back from forming Nahel bonds (not to mention "Spark" being "just fine" with Malata and the Diagram being on Team Odium).

Why do the spren even form Nahel bonds with humans?

We know they only started doing so after seeing the Heralds wielding the Honorblades, as Syl and WoBs say that it was done in imitation of what the Blades do (including granding two adjacent Surges per Honorblade/type of Nahel bond). And we know that the Ideals were something Ishar imposed on them as "precepts" to limit or check the growth and use of the Surgebinding powers.

But why did the Radiant spren see the need to "help out" the Heralds in that way, in their fight against the Fused and the Unmade and the Thunderclasts and their legions of ordinary singers?

If it was because Odium's victory would wipe them out - it's implied in his comments to Dalinar of what he would do upon being released, that he could not "leave behind the splinters" of Honor and Cultivation and "the changes to this realm would be substantial", that perhaps he'd eliminate all the sentient spren as well as the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher... Then why would they not resist him again? Surely even a second Recreance is worth it, if it means saving "a remnant of a remnant" as an alternative to utter destruction.

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10 minutes ago, robardin said:

If it was because Odium's victory would wipe them out - it's implied in his comments to Dalinar of what he would do upon being released, that he could not "leave behind the splinters" of Honor and Cultivation and "the changes to this realm would be substantial", that perhaps he'd eliminate all the sentient spren as well as the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher... Then why would they not resist him again? Surely even a second Recreance is worth it, if it means saving "a remnant of a remnant" as an alternative to utter destruction.

I think it was more than just transactional. I think they wanted growth too. Spren are fairly constant beings and live forever, essentially. So it almost feels like an Eve allegory--like to experience the world more fully, but you put your whole people at risk of death for the first time. 

But I do think that the Sapient spren are at risk--or were--but if, like I intimate above, there is a propaganda war in place, a shadow movement to perhaps spare the spren? They could very well decide in a strategic neutrality. I think this might be what he is telling them. Almost a parallel Taravangian deal. 

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23 hours ago, agrabes said:

(death isn't really death, except when it is, traveling through the underworld must happen in every story, but we get to be creative about what it means to travel through the underworld, etc),

I understand your point, I just view it as the stages of the Hero's journey are never meant to be literal. even something like "Death" has different meanings and expectations based on era, culture and religion. 

 

Edited by FollowYourMuse
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18 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Needing added lift to offset that is logical in principle

There is no reason to need lift, even if not everything that is flying is not lashed.

But wanting things to have lift to lessen the Stormlight needed, that may be a good idea.

I was mostly emphasizing the difference they put on wings vs fins. To me, wings are more a curved bulge, whereas fins are straight flat.

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On 9/8/2020 at 4:58 PM, Karger said:

I think I will respond to you all here as your thoughts touch mine. 

So, sorry for the late response, work has been crazy lately. I’m not gonna quote your whole response but I am responding to all of it, of course. 
 

Do you think that Kaladin will undergo some sort of (physical or metaphorical) death+resurrection in either this book or the next? Or do you think it’s more likely that he straight up dies? I personally find it hard to believe that Kaladin will become a villain, so for now I will discount that. 
 

It seems to me, thinking in meta perspective, Kaladin’s arc will involve one more major failure / roadblock and then continue on towards redemption (and by extension, advancing to be a 5th Oath Windrunner). That way, in the Back 5, we can see him as a sort of background leader figure adjacent to the main cast. 

That is, of course, assuming he survives. I would not put it past Brandon to twist the knife and have Kal die in a very tragic way. 

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5 hours ago, Govir said:

There is no reason to need lift, even if not everything that is flying is not lashed.

Well, no. Navani's weight is not trivial. She will still fall down. The capsule will fall forward. The resulting combined direction is in between. That means that the capsule will have to be lashed slightly upward and forward. That means that the control surfaces will constantly need to change pitch.

5 hours ago, Govir said:

But wanting things to have lift to lessen the Stormlight needed, that may be a good idea.

I was mostly emphasizing the difference they put on wings vs fins. To me, wings are more a curved bulge, whereas fins are straight flat.

Yes, that is the difference. Yet you will find that wings work better as speed increases. Getting a winged capsule under control unless you understand the physics of aerodynamics is extremely hard.

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So, the thing is, "wings for lift" is a solution to a problems the Rosharans don't have. It solves the problem of how do you convert forward motion into upwards lift. You need wings for lift when it's easy to generate forward speed, but hard to counteract the force of gravity.

But that's just not something Rosharans really need! Lashings can just be directly pointed in the direction they want to fly - lift-wings just make controlling the contraption counterintuitive for the people doing the lashings. On the other hand, they don't have propellers or jets or any kind of engines on the ground, so "going forward fast" isn't an easy thing for them.

So Navani may well understand the idea, but just not have a useful application of it yet.

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@robardin

I was re-reading this chapter today (because hiding from my kids + procrastination from my real job is my favorite Saturday pastime), and I was thinking of this line:

Quote

Though many of the orders had accepted the truth as an oddity and moved on, many Windrunners had not.

in reference to the reveal about the Recreance. I think it's possible that Leshwi's psychological warfare here is to try and remove the Windrunners from the battle by exploiting this potential advantage--that the Windrunners are (a) still uncomfortable with being the OG invaders, and (b) uncomfortable killing people who act with "Honor". If they can't destroy Kal (plan A is probably Moash) then they can exploit divides in the Radiants this way (plan B). Maybe this is something that she did leading up to the Recreance as well? Maybe she insinuated herself in with another young Windrunner that time has now forgotten--a leader of men--and made them re-think their oaths and what Honor meant, exploiting their goodness and leading to the Recreance itself?

I mean, speculation and not exactly the most parsimonious of interpretations, but that line directly after Dalinar's scolding seems critical?

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19 hours ago, _edgedancer said:

Do you think that Kaladin will undergo some sort of (physical or metaphorical) death+resurrection in either this book or the next? Or do you think it’s more likely that he straight up dies? I personally find it hard to believe that Kaladin will become a villain, so for now I will discount that. 

Personally the first although both are possible.

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21 hours ago, _edgedancer said:

 

Do you think that Kaladin will undergo some sort of (physical or metaphorical) death+resurrection in either this book or the next? Or do you think it’s more likely that he straight up dies? I personally find it hard to believe that Kaladin will become a villain, so for now I will discount that. 

 

2 hours ago, Karger said:

Personally the first although both are possible.

I agree it is probably the first, though I tend to think Kal has already gone through the Death/resurrection and is currently on the return trip, or more likely the refuse to return. 

 

Edited by FollowYourMuse
leaned this up - will carry on in Hero Journey thread
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On 9/9/2020 at 0:00 PM, Oltux72 said:

Why would she? She proposed wings precisely because she wanted lift. This shows that she does not understand how the Surge of Gravitation works, not that she is ignorant about lift.

We have no explicit indication that Navani proposed wings because she wanted lift. All we have is Kaladin noting that the initial design of the "room" only had wings and that, after uncontrollably moving upward, they were replaced with fins similar to how arrows have fletching.

Importantly, in Chapter 9 we see Navani's viewpoint on her "room" which can give some insight as to her aerodynamic knowledge. Notably, she doesn't seem to have a fully developed concept of drag. She specifically mentions that the Windrunners "sculpt the air around themselves" and that the "room" is a sphere with long, tapered ends to "help with airflow". There's no mention of air resistance, drag, turbulent or laminar flow, etc. Just very basic concepts one would learn from dealing with Windrunners.

On 9/10/2020 at 0:40 PM, Eluvianii said:

But, from what they saw, the thing lifted uncontrollably. So yes, that is a detriment to their current objective but it would only take a little experimentation to find a way to make it stable and useful. If they can make small ships applying gravitation horizontally in small quantities they'd have a functional plane with little to no Stormlight consumption compared to the Fourth Bridge. We already know the Stormlight waste to be one of its flaws. 

Also, we got an entire PoV from her describing how much she hates lacking understanding about anything, so after she saw this either she has every reason on Roshar to be intrigued or she already understands lift but just doesn't see it as useful, but I would find that very odd. You already pointed out how useful it would be for the big ship. 

Figuring out a whole new control mechanism to control flight is not something that requires "a little experimentation." Consider that, in the real world, it took many decades to develop even controllable gliding. The foremost pioneer of it, Otto Lilienthal, spent three decades working on it and ultimately died in a crash. The Wright brothers wouldn't achieve controlled, sustained flight for another decade afterwards and took a couple years after that to create the first practical fixed-wing aircraft.

As per Navani's thoughts on lift, we really have no idea of it. She's focusing on so much and the only mention of lift is Kaladin's mention of the results of using wings on her vehicle. Honestly, I don't think the Rosharans, Alethi, and Navani have much knowledge with aerodynamics in general. If they did, the Fourth Bridge wouldn't be a big, flying brick. The drag on that thing must be horrendous.

On 9/11/2020 at 0:12 AM, Oltux72 said:

Larger structures for a purpose for which they usually use fins? The Alethi use arrows.

Navani is not in zero-g. So only the capsule is lashed, not the cargo. Needing added lift to offset that is logical in principle. The problem is that the lift generated depends on speed and angle-of-attack.  Consequently control issues arise. It looks to me like the Alethi do know about aerodynamic lift, but it is a shallow theoretical understanding.

The Alethi use arrows, but it's not inconceivable that someone not knowledgeable in aerodynamics would think that wings add stability. Considering their only experience with non-Radiant, self-sustained flight would likely be skyeels, mandra, and chickens, it makes sense that wings could be thought of as adding stability. Specifically, the fact that they replaced a design with only wings to a design with only fins implies that they were looking for stability. We don't have much detail about their design process, outside of the Kaladin's statement, but the fact the change was made implies such.

You don't necessarily need lift to worry much about countering Navani's weight. You just need to lash the vehicle upward enough to counter its weight and Navani's. Needing lift would be a less logical approach to initially developing a Surgebinding powered aircraft considering it functions and is controlled largely through Lashings. Though it would be helpful for increasing the efficiency of Stormlight usage.

On 9/11/2020 at 11:40 PM, Oltux72 said:

Well, no. Navani's weight is not trivial. She will still fall down. The capsule will fall forward. The resulting combined direction is in between. That means that the capsule will have to be lashed slightly upward and forward. That means that the control surfaces will constantly need to change pitch.

Yes, that is the difference. Yet you will find that wings work better as speed increases. Getting a winged capsule under control unless you understand the physics of aerodynamics is extremely hard.

Navani's weight is not trivial when it comes to the force equation in the vertical. The way to deal with it, considering the method of function and control of the aircraft (specifically, lashings), does make it a trivial consideration though. After lashing the whole vehicle to the desired height, you diminish the lashing until it counters both the mass of the vehicle and Navani. Add on some fletching style fins for some passive stability (presumably straight fins instead of angled/helical since Navani isn't spinning around) and you have a magic-powered aircraft.

Edited by Knight Oblivion
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  • 2 months later...

This chapter... ugh. Things are definitely going to get much darker for Kaladin going forward, but I love how Sanderson is treating a clear PTSD diagnosis, especially having had family members who have struggled with it. (have only read thru ch.11) and decided to join this forum before RoW release!

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