RoW Chapter 10 Discussion

[Gderu]

49 minutes ago, Karger said:

I think I will respond to you all here as your thoughts touch mine.  It is actually quite common rendition of the road back stage of the hero's journey(stridently this is by far the most dangerous stage of the hero's journey).  The pacifist mentor to the hero who can no longer fight is also a recurring character if you knew where to look for him.  Kaladin is currently at the regression stage of his journey.  The consequences of his choices are manifesting and he is not sure if he like the result.  Generally this stage ends with our hero dying or becoming a villain.  If the story ends here we just saw a tragedy.  The death of the hero however leaves room for hope.  If the hero is able to keep going he will journey through the underworld, resurrect, and return with the answer to his questions thus completing the cycle. 

I really doubt Kaladin will die in this book. That leaves two options -either he goes to the "underworld" or becomes a villain. We have some foreshadowing that he might become a villain, namely his reaction to Moash. Then again, he might very well be going to get better. When you say underworld here, you're not taking about the literal underworld. You're talking about a bad, scary place that is different from the usual. This can very well mean Lasting Integrity. This might be more hints that Kaladin is gonna join Shallan and Adolin on the journey to lasting integrity.

[Rai]

Kaladin's depression is really hard to read, but Brandon's also taking him in a different direction this book which is super interesting and refreshing... like, we've never had to see Kaladin in a position where he can... be relatively close to normalcy or outside of combat/war for a while. I think this will help his depression a lot! I've mentioned it before in the thread for the last chapter, but Kaladin's had unresolved issues since TWOK, and has clear issues about his self-worth (as in, he thinks being able to fight is the only thing he's got going for him. which... kal, no....) which he might be finally able to actually deal with, when he was just brushing them off or using objectives/his duties to ignore before.

So... I know this is tough. His depression is emotionally draining for me too just because of how much I sympathize with and love Kaladin. But I really think this will be worth it in the end and that Brandon is writing him at the lowest we've seen Kaladin yet for a reason, and I don't think readers should give up yet. 

[Mistbornwithakitty]

This chapter was....heartbreaking.  I mean, I loved every second and I honestly did NOT see Kaladin being relieved of duty, but maaannnn this is going to force his emotional hand hard.  He's being forced to move and confront.  I'm loving it.  I hope he eventually decides to go back and become some sort of medic.  That would really bring things full-circle!

[Karger]

37 minutes ago, Gderu said:

I really doubt Kaladin will die in this book

The "death" is often metaphorical.  An excellent example from recent pop culture is Peter's final scene in Spiderverse.  In this Peter dies and is returned to life in the space of about 30 seconds. Another good example is in Rocky how he gets knocked down so badly at the beginning of the fight.

40 minutes ago, Gderu said:

When you say underworld here, you're not taking about the literal underworld. You're talking about a bad, scary place that is different from the usual

Sometimes but not always.  In Harry Potter the underworld is a place of answers and contemplation.  In star wars the underworld is the second death star.  In TLOTR it is MT doom.  You get a lot of variation.

43 minutes ago, Gderu said:

This might be more hints that Kaladin is gonna join Shallan and Adolin on the journey to lasting integrity.

That would be one interpretation although not my favorite.  I think it might be more fitting to make Kaladin's underworld the normal world.  A place of suffering and continued life.  His struggle would be about understanding both.

[Subvisual Haze]

To me I see this as a necessary shock to Kaladin's character, he's overdue for soul searching.  Mostly, I don't think Kaladin was ever really cut out to be a soldier.  He's talented at fighting, but that alone doesn't a soldier make.  He mostly just latched onto the role of soldier and bodyguard to Dalinar as a role to give his life focus.  Now he can actually start asking himself the important questions about what he really wants to do with his life, and how he can best help himself and others.

Kaladin's real purpose is to be a leader.  He gives hope to the hopeless, a sense of meaning to the lost, and looks out for the most vulnerable in the group.  He helps others shine.  It's important to remember what drew Sylphrena to Kaladin in the first place was how he protected his squad in Amaram's army.  Not just physically protected, but gave them a sense of purpose and belonging.  And that's what he's done to so many other hopeless souls along the way.  Various Alethi slaves, all the original Bridge 4, Rlain, Renarin, the parshmen group at the start of Oathbringer etc.  Kal is at his best when he's guiding and leading others, so in a way it's a blessing that Dalinar is forcing him to leave the front line fighting.

[Potus]

16 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

To me I see this as a necessary shock to Kaladin's character, he's overdue for soul searching.  Mostly, I don't think Kaladin was ever really cut out to be a soldier.  He's talented at fighting, but that alone doesn't a soldier make.  He mostly just latched onto the role of soldier and bodyguard to Dalinar as a role to give his life focus.  Now he can actually start asking himself the important questions about what he really wants to do with his life, and how he can best help himself and others.

Kaladin's real purpose is to be a leader.  He gives hope to the hopeless, a sense of meaning to the lost, and looks out for the most vulnerable in the group.  He helps others shine.  It's important to remember what drew Sylphrena to Kaladin in the first place was how he protected his squad in Amaram's army.  Not just physically protected, but gave them a sense of purpose and belonging.  And that's what he's done to so many other hopeless souls along the way.  Various Alethi slaves, all the original Bridge 4, Rlain, Renarin, the parshmen group at the start of Oathbringer etc.  Kal is at his best when he's guiding and leading others, so in a way it's a blessing that Dalinar is forcing him to leave the front line fighting.

I agree with you. Kal needs this step back to really start processing himself and his oaths. If he is made into a surgeon I hope he works alongside his dad. That way Lirin can tell him that he hasn't changed since he was a kid, right to his face. Maybe then Kal can realize his faults. 

Also, I hope Rlain doesn't bond this spren because it would seem too forced. I want him to be fleshed out as a character on his own. Maybe make him a willshaper like Venli. 

[sprocket]

People keep pointing to Dalinar's reference to the God Beyond as evidence that he's becoming more cosmere aware, but I really don't think that's it. Wayne refers to the God Beyond and I don't think he's been talking to the Heralds. Same goes for the character who mentions it in Shadows for Silence (I can't remember who it was but I remember it happened).

It's also worth noting that any extra connection to the Spiritual Realm would give no extra information about the God Beyond, as the "beyond" part means beyond the three realms, to the place where the dead go, where not even Shards can see.

The God Beyond seems to be something that people on many different shardworlds developed independently, probably for the exact same reasons as Dalinar. Dalinar came to believe that Honor wasn't god because he was mortal and fallible, but that a god did exist beyond Honor.      

[+Bliev]

I think that we feel like all Kal is doing is staying stagnant and that Shallan is being "Shallan" because this is the end of the transition time in the book, and we're really over-analyzing because we get ONE chapter a week! If we had the whole book, it would move much faster and the pace would work even better. So let's not get too wrapped up in that...how often do you ever read a book (let alone one that moves at a Sando pace!) one chapter a week? 

So deep breaths, all. :-)

I also think that Syl and Kal might not be the best envoys to Lasting Integrity. They aren't exactly good diplomats--Kal is not good at playing that game. You saw him on the ship in Shadesmar with Notum. He was short tempered, demanding, and threatening. He's impatient and honorable to a fault...not exactly good at negotiating. ;-) and Syl has a...reputation. I also concur with some others that Kal probably needs more careful monitoring. He contemplated suicide when faced with Moash and the last trip to Shadesmar surely hasn't left him with positive memories. 

For me, I think it'll be interaction with Lirin. The same interactions he remembers as a boy, and then seeing how his father navigates the world so differently than he does, but with the clarity of adulthood and experience. I'm thinking that what leads to the 4th ideal might be an attack on Urithiru where his father sacrifices himself, tells Kal he's going to do it, and Kal has to let him go. That some people don't want to be protected, and you can't save them all. That, or it's a clash with Moash that attack and he has to fight his former best friend and acknowledge that he can't protect them all that way. 

Anyhow, just my speculation. 

 

[Eluvianii]

As cool as it would be for Kal and Syl to go to Shadesmar, I would prefer if they stayed in Urithiru. It was mentioned somewhere weeks ago that Kaladin so far has only known of Shallan coping with years of suffering. He's jealous because he thinks it's a functional easy way out (if he only knew).

Then we have people like Lirin, Hesina, Laral, his own Windrunners even, people from other orders, people who aren't even Knights. We know of several people in Hearthstone who have had to deal with a lot during the past few years but Kaladin hasn't really had time to talk or think about it because he had such a frenetic life, he just stopped briefly and left. Now they're all in Urithiru, there's also all the other people in the city who may have similar stories, and Kal just got stuck there. I think he will benefit of talking with other people who have suffered and survived and then think. He now has lots of time to just stop and think. Learn that there is more than one way to deal with these things and find his own, without always relying on fighting. 

Also, about the sphere with wings. Yeah, it is really strange that the Windrunners just dismissed it but I'm even more surprised about Navani dismissing it. She sees this really efficient way of making things fly and just goes "Welp, failure. Anyway, how's my flying table doing?" 

Edited September 9, 2020 by Eluvianii

[Cheat Commando]

I am incredibly glad that Kaladin was taken off of active duty. He has not been given the chance to decompress since.... Well, since following Tien and joining the army. I'm a Kaladin fan, through and through, so I'm very eager to see his story in this book.

I am also surprised Navani didn't get at all curious about the lift generated from the wings of the pod.

Yay for tin! Confused about steel and iron.

[Tamara]

14 hours ago, paperstones said:

I think this is foreshadowing Kaladin eventually fulfilling Jezrien's place as a Herald and Patron of the Windrunners. 

Let’s face is, Kaladin was a character written for greatness. He has depression, PTSD....but he does pull himself up to challenges and conquers them. He has many difficult struggles but those don’t solely define him. He is an amazing soldier and leader. He is extremely intelligent. Sanderson killed Jezrien for a reason and though Kaladin was dismissed from his position by Dalinar he will pull himself out and land somewhere far greater and more comfortable to him than high marshal. I think Patron of the windrunners would be a very fitting place for him.

[Michael Portz]

There is too much discussion of Brandon's intention or literary tropes or the hero's journey for my taste.

Let us trust in Brandon in that everything will explain out of the story itself.

 

[Blackwarder]

6 hours ago, Bliev said:

 

For me, I think it'll be interaction with Lirin. The same interactions he remembers as a boy, and then seeing how his father navigates the world so differently than he does, but with the clarity of adulthood and experience. I'm thinking that what leads to the 4th ideal might be an attack on Urithiru where his father sacrifices himself, tells Kal he's going to do it, and Kal has to let him go. That some people don't want to be protected, and you can't save them all. That, or it's a clash with Moash that attack and he has to fight his former best friend and acknowledge that he can't protect them all that way. 

Anyhow, just my speculation. 

 

I have a theory that the two last Windrunners oaths are about leadership and the need to sometimes send others into harm and live with the consequences.

Something like 

“I will let others do their part, even if it costs them their life”.

 

[Karger]

8 hours ago, Eluvianii said:

Also, about the sphere with wings. Yeah, it is really strange that the Windrunners just dismissed it but I'm even more surprised about Navani dismissing it. She sees this really efficient way of making things fly and just goes "Welp, failure. Anyway, how's my flying table doing?" 

I mean it is not like they have another way of efficiently generating thrust.

6 hours ago, Michael Portz said:

There is too much discussion of Brandon's intention or literary tropes or the hero's journey for my taste.

Shrugs.  The Hero's journey is the only story.  I could literately write an explanation of how this person fits in for every major character in the cosmere.  To misquote Patrick Rothfuss "we only know one story."

[Potus]

I'd also like to reiterate that people aren't cured of their mental health issues overnight. Even with magic.

Kaladin won't magically be happy and mentally healthy after years of war and death just because he can fly and stick things to walls. 

Shallan won't be cured of her childhood traumas just because she can draw well and be a movie projector. 

[+Bliev]

4 hours ago, Blackwarder said:

I have a theory that the two last Windrunners oaths are about leadership and the need to sometimes send others into harm and live with the consequences.

Something like 

“I will let others do their part, even if it costs them their life”.

 

Hmm. I've seen a lot of this about "leadership" and I suppose, maybe?

Maybe Kal's specific Windrunner path bends toward leadership, but are we saying that Windrunners in general are made to be leaders? I don't think that's what we know of the order. In fact, I'd argue that a more typical Windrunner arc would be toward command structure and teamwork, not necessary leadership.

That isn't to say that it isn't Kal's personal journey. But I think he's a leader by circumstance, via inspiration at first, but now because he focuses on teamwork, and I'd maybe even argue the opposite here, that Kal has to learn to NOT be a leader, that it isn't a HIM story, it's about his team. He has to learn to trust others and let go. That others get to be in charge of their own protection sometimes, and his own desires to protect them don't supercede their own agency.

[Michael Portz]

40 minutes ago, Karger said:

Shrugs.  The Hero's journey is the only story.  I could literately write an explanation of how this person fits in for every major character in the cosmere.  To misquote Patrick Rothfuss "we only know one story."

Each to his/her own. Heroes journey is all fine when analyzing a story afterwards; but it tends to spoil it for me while reading. I prefer thinking/feeling "What an admirably feat of my beloved <insert hero name here>!" over "Yeah, of course! Brandon needed to revive <insert hero name here> right at this moment because of heroes journey." anytime.

Thinking too much about possible constructs used by an author leaves me sometimes without wonder. That is usually the moment I stop reading/watching the story. Happens way too often.

Peace!

[Rainier]

 

20 minutes ago, Bliev said:

are we saying that Windrunners in general are made to be leaders? I don't think that's what we know of the order.

This is exactly what we're saying. Brush up on the Ten Essences, and notice that Protecting and Leading are associated with Jezrien. I would expect the second and third oaths of each order to be based on one of these two attributes, and the fourth and fifth oaths to be based on the other. So I expect Dalinar's future oaths to be more about guiding, since his first two were more about piety (I will unite is basically a prayer). 

You also see this in the Skybreakers. Their second and third oaths are about Justice, but their fourth and fifth are about Confidence (pick some cause to pledge yourself to, confident in your application of Justice). 

Since we've seen Edgedancer oaths, we can compare them, too. This first few are about Love, but they haven't yet been about Healing. I would expect Lift will have to say the words about healing others, in addition to not forgetting them.

And so on. When we're looking for patterns, let's use all the patterns we already have.

4 hours ago, Blackwarder said:

I have a theory that the two last Windrunners oaths are about leadership and the need to sometimes send others into harm and live with the consequences.

Something like 

“I will let others do their part, even if it costs them their life”.

I've been beating this drum, too. I don't think the fourth or fifth oaths are going to be about protecting at all, since two and three have that aspect covered. The other divine attribute of the Windrunners, besides protecting, is Leading, and I expect Kaladin to have to swear oaths that make him a leader more than a bodyguard. If he swears two more oaths about different ways to protect people, I'll be very disappointed. 

"I will let others die in my place."

Edited September 9, 2020 by Rainier

[+Bliev]

@Rainier OK, I can get behind this...to some degree. I think we're expecting similar oaths, but focusing on different components of "leadership". I can see it more as servant leadership but less as your typical forms of contingent reward or transactional leadership. 

The theory of transformational leadership, for instance, includes four facets: Idealized Influence, Inspirational Motivation, Individualized Consideration, and Intellectual Stimulation. I had been thinking in terms of the "typical" fantasy leader path, which is more Dalinar's model than Kal's, but if we characterize Windrunners as following a transformational or servant leadership path, then I can totally get on board.

The irony here is I have literally published research on transformational leadership and should have had it at the forefront of my mind but you can see how much I'm segmenting my worlds right now and I'm now a bit embarrassed. lol 

(fun thought: some amazing leadership researchers that I know are faculty in the management dept at BYU, and I wonder if Brandon has spoken to them at all as he approaches his world. Would be cool. Unlikely, probably, but cool!)

 

[agrabes]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

I mean it is not like they have another way of efficiently generating thrust.

Shrugs.  The Hero's journey is the only story.  I could literately write an explanation of how this person fits in for every major character in the cosmere.  To misquote Patrick Rothfuss "we only know one story."

I mean... when you take a super broad outline you can work anything into it.  Hero's Journey is good for what it is - understanding that many stories share common elements and what that says about human psychology-, but you're taking drastically different things and characters and shoehorning them all into one outline.  I don't think the Hero's Journey can be used to predict future story because it's too generic and really requires the entire story to put everything in perspective.

It seems a little bit of a stretch to say that Kaladin is in the "On the Road Back" stage of a Hero's Journey at about the halfway mark in the story.  I mean, he hasn't yet achieved his goal (defeat evil and keep his family and friends safe), which most of the models of Hero's Journey require before starting the road back.  The examples you see for the road back are things like Frodo returning from Mordor.  We're nowhere near any similar point in Kaladin's story.  Once we've read SA4 and SA5, you will probably have to re-adjust your interpretation of how Kaladin's story fits the Hero's Journey. 

If I were to classify Kaladin's status in the Hero's Journey structure, I would say he's still on the "Road of Trials" phase.  He's not yet been gifted an item of power, he's not yet faced temptation to leave his journey (though maybe this reassignment from Dalinar could grow into that), he's not yet faced a direct confrontation with the ultimate power (Odium), he's not yet come to a great and profound understanding of something he was missing that will allow him to complete his challenge (most likely learning to let go of past hurts, etc), and he's not completed his ultimate goal of defeating Odium and bringing peace to those he cares about.

[Chiberty]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

Shrugs.  The Hero's journey is the only story.  I could literately write an explanation of how this person fits in for every major character in the cosmere.  To misquote Patrick Rothfuss "we only know one story."

It's not the only story, just a common one, since it works well narratively.

[branonm]

 

2 hours ago, Bliev said:

Hmm. I've seen a lot of this about "leadership" and I suppose, maybe?

Maybe Kal's specific Windrunner path bends toward leadership, but are we saying that Windrunners in general are made to be leaders? I don't think that's what we know of the order. In fact, I'd argue that a more typical Windrunner arc would be toward command structure and teamwork, not necessary leadership.

That isn't to say that it isn't Kal's personal journey. But I think he's a leader by circumstance, via inspiration at first, but now because he focuses on teamwork, and I'd maybe even argue the opposite here, that Kal has to learn to NOT be a leader, that it isn't a HIM story, it's about his team. He has to learn to trust others and let go. That others get to be in charge of their own protection sometimes, and his own desires to protect them don't supercede their own agency.

"I will trust others to protect me" or maybe "I will allow others to protect me"

Kaladin is still trying to do it all himself. I'm not sure it's about leadership so much as limits. 
 

[Tamara]

I read this chapter last night and all I’ve been able to think about think morning is that Kaladin REALLY needs a hug. 

 

On 9/8/2020 at 11:45 AM, psc92 said:

One of the main focuses of Kaladin's arc, and arguably the main focus since the beginning of Oathbringer has been his inability to let go and not take things personally when he can't save someone. 

It’s a double edged sword though, it’s that inability to accept that someone can’t be saved that has lead him to save so many. If he had accepted he couldn’t save the all bridgemen many of them, including Leyten, would be dead. Or what if he’d accepted he couldn’t save Elhokar when Kal was bleeding out and being pursued by Moash in WoR? Ya, the kid does needs to learn to forgive himself but his weakness of not letting go has lead to many great things. 

[Karger]

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

I mean, he hasn't yet achieved his goal (defeat evil and keep his family and friends safe), which most of the models of Hero's Journey require before starting the road back.

I would argue that his goal was being a radiant which he is.  It is not an accident that seizing the sword comes at the climax of the ordeal.  It can take any amount of time for a hero to do any of these things really.  Some also go through it multiple times.

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

He's not yet been gifted an item of power,

shardblade.

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

he's not yet faced temptation to leave his journey

Dueling scene?

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

he's not yet faced a direct confrontation with the ultimate power (Odium), he's not yet come to a great and profound understanding of something he was missing that will allow him to complete his challenge

His confrontation was with himself.  He was missing compassion for his enemies. 

[+Bliev]

1 minute ago, Tamara said:

It’s a double edged sword though, it’s that inability to accept that someone can’t be saved that has lead him to save so many. If he had accepted he couldn’t save the all bridgemen many of them, including Leyten, would be dead. Or what if he’d accepted he couldn’t save Elhokar when he was bleeding out and being pursued by Moash in WoR? Ya, the kid does needs to learn to forgive himself but his weakness of not letting go has lead to many great things. 

That's why I wonder if it has to do with respecting others agency--their choice *not* to be protected. For instance, you can want to protect someone, but also respect their decisions. So it's not about accepting that someone CAN'T be saved, but rather than they don't want to be? He's willing to sacrifice himself, but he has a harder time allowing others to do the same? 

It squares with the primacy of choice ideas that all of SA seems to be reckoning with.