RoW Chapter 10 Discussion

[Subvisual Haze]

Just now, Innovation said:

But why would Dalinar send a depressed, emotionally wounded highmarshal into Shadesmar? Kaladin is still useful to train troops and inspire soldiers. 

He might just go on his own volition.  A natural side effect of Dalinar taking Kaladin out of a structured military command is that Kaladin might show more personal initiative in planning his actions.  Or Renarin might grease the plot wheels and tell Kaladin he had a vision that Kal and Syl need to be there or something-something-disaster 

It would be kind of foolish to send a diplomatic mission to the Honorspren that didn't include Kal and Syl.  The Honorspren have a natural respect for chains of command, and even taken out of combat Kaladin is widely recognized as the leader of the Windrunners.  More than any other human they'd listen to him.  Syl also has a unique position in Honorspren society, being the only Honorspren created pre-Recreance, she could offer a unique perspective on the events of the Recreance (assuming she spends time dwelling on the painful memories and loss of her previous bonded Windrunner).

[Gilphon]

• I'll be brutally honest: as of this chapter, I'm officially sick of Kaladin's moping. Like I'm now hoping that we're done with him for the rest of part 1, just so he has time to get into a better headspace offscreen.
• Hmm. Tin making diminishers. That's a major point in favour of the 'fourth metallic art' point of view, since it would take real finagling to interpret that as the same effect as Allomantic Tin. And I think we're mean to infer, from the way she brought up the painrial, that Iron and Steel are used to switch between the Pewter and Tin effects, but I don't see why that's necessary; surely you could just move out Tin wires and move in Pewter ones. I really wish Navani had phrased that in a less techno-babble way; what the heck does 'reversing the polarity' mean here? 
• We had discussion here a few weeks ago about whether or not it was wise of Kaladin to play by the Heavenly Ones' rules. Here we see Dalinar weighing in on that, saying that it's bad for moral if the Windrunners appear to be treating it as a game, and questioning Kaladin's objectivity on the subject. 
• Also, Kaladin says there are more Heavenly Ones than Windrunners. There are a lot of Windrunners. And thus there are a really large number of Heavenly Ones. Which says bad things for the state of the war as a whole; there are gonna be a lot of battles where the Radiants are just unable to respond to the Fused effectively because of sheer numbers.

[paperstones]

33 minutes ago, Innovation said:

But why would Dalinar send a depressed, emotionally wounded highmarshal into Shadesmar? Kaladin is still useful to train troops and inspire soldiers. 

Kal already said how hard it would be to do this and then watch them go off to battle without him. That is why Dalinar is giving him 10 days to think.

[psc92]

One of the main focuses of Kaladin's arc, and arguably the main focus since the beginning of Oathbringer has been his inability to let go and not take things personally when he can't save someone. As we all know since it's been discussed to death, this is very likely the crux of the 4th ideal which when Kaladin swears it will be a major step in his character arc and also give us the answer to the mystery of living Shardplate (although the mystery has probably been solved, we're just waiting on confirmation). As an author Brandon knows that you can only play these conflicts and mysteries out for so long without a resolution/payoff before people start to lose interest. So from a meta/writing perspective Brandon has to strike while the iron is hot and have Kaladin swear the 4th ideal during this book, which I am close to 100% certainty will happen. 

I don't think we will see any other Windrunner get to the 4th ideal first. There has been a clear pattern in these books where our main viewpoint characters discover these secrets with us reading their viewpoint so that we discover it with them, rather than having them get discovered by a non POV character, which would be pretty lame. 

Edited September 8, 2020 by psc92

[king of nowhere]

i wonder if being retired is good or bad for kaladin. for any other soldier with the same problem it would be good, but given kaladin's peculiar issues, losing his purpose may take away the only thing that was keeping him up

[paperstones]

2 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

i wonder if being retired is good or bad for kaladin. for any other soldier with the same problem it would be good, but given kaladin's peculiar issues, losing his purpose may take away the only thing that was keeping him up

Correct but this will push him from mainly Protecting to Leading. 

[+robardin]

52 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

It would be kind of foolish to send a diplomatic mission to the Honorspren that didn't include Kal and Syl.  The Honorspren have a natural respect for chains of command, and even taken out of combat Kaladin is widely recognized as the leader of the Windrunners.  More than any other human they'd listen to him.  Syl also has a unique position in Honorspren society, being the only Honorspren created pre-Recreance, she could offer a unique perspective on the events of the Recreance (assuming she spends time dwelling on the painful memories and loss of her previous bonded Windrunner).

This. The only reason Kaladin and Syl wouldn't already be sent on this rather critical mission would be because they were more needed in the battlefield. Which Dalinar is now saying quite clearly is not the case.

"Hello, Lasting Integrity! I'm Kaladin Stormblessed, and this here is Sylphrena, the Ancient Daughter, and we're the Fabulous Blues Bonded. We came here tonight to get you all back on board, because we're getting the BAND back together again.... We're on a mission from gods!"

Edited September 8, 2020 by robardin

[+Oltux72]

3 hours ago, Harbour said:

Its interesting to see how Brandon intentionally paralleled Kaladin's order for Honorspren (10 days) and Dalinar's order fro Kaladin (10 days).

A Rosharan week is five days. They just gave two weeks. Likely a usual amount of time to be given in such situations.

 

2 hours ago, Jace said:

The last chapter got me thinking why isnt Kaladin going to Shadesmar instead of Shallan and Adolin. He is off duty now and has all of the time in the world to do whatever, and Syl knows the honorspren while Shallan and Adolin dont.

Sylphrena had a bounty on her head. The Knights Radiant likely have no idea whether this has changed.

[Subvisual Haze]

7 minutes ago, robardin said:

This. The only reason Kaladin and Syl wouldn't already be sent on this rather critical mission would be because they were more needed in the battlefield. Which Dalinar is now saying quite clearly is not the case.

"Hello, Lasting Integrity! I'm Kaladin Stormblessed, and this here is Sylphrena, the Ancient Daughter, and we're the Fabulous Blues Bonded. We came here tonight to get you all back on board, because we're getting the BAND back together again.... We're on a mission from gods!"

It's 106 miles to Urithiru, I've got a full tank of stormlight, half a legion of unbonded honorspren, it's dark, and we're wearing sharplate.

[Gears]

Dependent, he's broken, requirements contradictory, removing contradictions requires breaks, he's dependent.

[Soby]

1. Maybe the 4th ideal will be spoken by Kal when he’s forced to protect people in a way that doesn’t require the sword? Maybe it’s what needs to happen in order to speak it. 

2. So many were hoping R’lain to be the next Bondsmith. I hope Yunfah, who reminds me of a grumpy lawn gnome, tries to bond R’lain only to find R’lain bonding another spren. I’d think Teft takes over the windrunners, but I’m worried about that as I don’t think the future bodes well for the next field commander of the wind runners...

3. I think it’s the right choice for Kal to take on a more support/actual leadership role. In the military, someone of Kal’s position would never be on the front lines in the vanguard anyways...Regardless of their mental state. He’s probably the equivalent of a Colonel at this point...

 

[+robardin]

54 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Sylphrena had a bounty on her head. The Knights Radiant likely have no idea whether this has changed.

Well, it was put out there by the Stormfather whose POV has likely changed since it was issued, hey?

The bigger risk would be that Shadesmar appeared to be largely, and increasingly, under the thumb of the Fused, when last we saw it. Simply reaching Lasting Integrity might prove a challenge.

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, psc92 said:

As an author Brandon knows that you can only play these conflicts and mysteries out for so long without a resolution/payoff before people start to lose interest. So from a meta/writing perspective Brandon has to strike while the iron is hot and have Kaladin swear the 4th ideal during this book, which I am close to 100% certainty will happen. 

I don't think we will see any other Windrunner get to the 4th ideal first. There has been a clear pattern in these books where our main viewpoint characters discover these secrets with us reading their viewpoint so that we discover it with them, rather than having them get discovered by a non POV character, which would be pretty lame. 

I both agree and disagree. Yes, I think Kaladin as the Windrunner par excellence for the reader must ultimately achieve all five Ideals, as a meta/writerly thing - almost a kind of contract with the reader, assuming he doesn't die a shocking death suddenly a la Game of Thrones, which hasn't been Brandon's thing up until now.

However I think it is very possible, and possibly a better story, for him to be "overtaken" at some point on the Checklist of Radiant Ideals. Just as it was Rock's "turn to save him" at Thaylen Fields, perhaps it's another Windrunner's turn to help guide and encourage Kaladin forward. Put like that, it kind of sounds like it should be Lopen.

[Jace]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

A Rosharan week is five days. They just gave two weeks. Likely a usual amount of time to be given in such situations.

 

Sylphrena had a bounty on her head. The Knights Radiant likely have no idea whether this has changed.

A bounty of the honorspren, the last time Syl was in Shadesmar, she was scared of her bounty because they will send her to Lasting Integrity(so they couldnt get back to roshar). But now, they want to go to talk to the honorsprens, so i dont know why her bounty can suppose a problem, in fact it might be benefitial for them.

Edited September 8, 2020 by Jace

[Govir]

2 hours ago, Gilphon said:

• Hmm. Tin making diminishers. That's a major point in favour of the 'fourth metallic art' point of view, since it would take real finagling to interpret that as the same effect as Allomantic Tin. And I think we're mean to infer, from the way she brought up the painrial, that Iron and Steel are used to switch between the Pewter and Tin effects, but I don't see why that's necessary; surely you could just move out Tin wires and move in Pewter ones. I really wish Navani had phrased that in a less techno-babble way; what the heck does 'reversing the polarity' mean here? 

The way I've been looking at fabrials is that the metal helps determines the type of certain fabrials and the gem determines the attribute. To that end, we have seen Attractor fabrials which I will conjecture use Iron (i.e. pulling) and likewise I conjecture you can make a Repeller with Steel. What gets Attracted / Repelled depends on the gem used, following the Ten Essences. An example of this is the Alerter which uses a heliodor (meat, flesh) and Bronze (seeking) to detect people, but is said it is theoretically possible to use other gems as well (from RoW Chapter 8).

 

EDIT: And now I see there's a whole Fabrial thread in another forum, which you're active in. I hold by what I said (and see that it was mentioned by others in the other thread). Also, your comments of Tin/Pewter being oddly paired, wasn't there a bit about this in the Mistborn books? I can't remember where though, and The Coppermind doesn't seem to have anything specific about that talk.

Edited September 8, 2020 by Govir

[KidWayne]

I'm seeking spoilers here, but does anyone have any idea about whether Kal ever gets over his funk before the end of this book?

I'm not asking whether he swears ideal #4,  I just want to know if he ever overcomes his mental state (circa chapter 10). 

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by KidWayne

[Innovation]

18 minutes ago, KidWayne said:

I'm seeking spoilers here, but does anyone have any idea about whether Kal ever gets over his funk before the end of this book?

I'm not asking whether he swears ideal #4,  I just want to know if he ever overcomes his mental state (circa chapter 10). 

 

No. He does not. He also has insomnia. 

[+robardin]

12 minutes ago, KidWayne said:

I'm seeking spoilers here, but does anyone have any idea about whether Kal ever gets over his funk before the end of this book?

I'm not asking whether he swears ideal #4,  I just want to know if he ever overcomes his mental state (circa chapter 10). 

As Kaladin tells Teft after he'd had sworn the Third Ideal despite his guilt over his pawned Bridge Four coat being used to steal the Honorblade, force open the Oathgate, and kill members of Bridge Four while doing so... "It doesn't change us, Teft. We're still who we are."

Teft still has his addiction, his longing for firemoss.

And Kaladin's depression is not something he will just "gets over" at some point, neither is it something Stormlight or a Nahel bond will "fix". It's likely something he's had, and will continue to have to deal with, for his whole life. It's not something beaten into him as a slave, or a reaction to Amaram's betrayal, you kno; he had these moods already even back in Hearthstone, when he recalls that Tien could lighten even his darkest days. He meant the depression.

As for his particular extra funk in the early chapters of RoW, they do seem related to what he considers his failure to be "strong enough" to swear the Fourth Ideal.

I (like many others) have the feeling the Fourth Ideal will not be about strength, about gritting one's teeth and pushing through or forbearing through a trial, but about letting something go.

And as per an earlier post of mine in this thread, I now think it's very possible, even hoping, that Lopen will be the first Windrunner to swear the Fourth Ideal, and be an inspirational leader for others (including Kaladin) to do so as well. Because advancing in the Ideals is not a competition or a race to a finishing line ("Yes, Fifth Ideal - FIRST!!!"), but about personal growth.

[teknopathetic]

12 minutes ago, Innovation said:

No. He does not. He also has insomnia. 

.....

I get that depression is important to the story, but i just don't enjoy reading people being depressed all day long. Kal's arc has stopped being interesting and has moved onto the point where I just don't care. It isn't even an arc anymore. Its just staying sad as the plot moves around him. Every page is just mawkish emo mopiness, and while i am sympathetic, it just isn't compelling. I lived with someone who had depression for years, and after a few years of co-suffering you just sort of need to move on with your own life because trying to help them just isn't a rational use of time. I feel for Syl, but in a "this isn't yours to fix" sort of way. Everyone has dark days, and we should be there for them, but you cant be there for someone having dark years. 

I can handle Shallan, but do I want another 1000 pages of her maybe trying to maybe make progress? I just don't care. Id rather have them die off so we can focus on other people at this point (and I love Shallan!). There are so many more interesting people, and I think the book needs to let them go or let them heal. Being stuck in the middle for 3000 pages is getting old. Depression and mental illness are really important, but this depiction of them is not making for entertaining reading(which may be the point, but man is that thoroughly annoying point to make for 3000+ pages)

Edited September 8, 2020 by teknopathetic

[Master Silver]

6 hours ago, bdoble97 said:

Good chapter just wanted more. I'm sure I am not the 1st one to say this. But forcing KL away from fighting and have to look inward at himself will probably get him to speak the 4th ideal/ oath. But he is probably going to be going to a dark place before he gets there. Also I do t this I I want Kaladin in armor. I LOVE shard plate I have always been a tank in any video game I played so the big bulky armor is so cool to me. But Kaladin just doesn't fit in armour 

If shard plate is anything like swords, it could be sleek and fashioned as leather or something more flexible. The shard blades all the form of swords when the Radiants broke their oaths, but Syl is a spear far more often. Perhaps plate is the same way, and fit the Radiants desire, but upon death the plate reverts to what humanity thinks shard plate should look like. 

Also I think it would be great if Kaladin got his plate while in the operating room with his dad.It would completely break the mold of "power ups" on the battle field. 

[Jace]

Kaladin is my favorite character but i can't stand his point of views nowadays. He is not making any personal progress and it makes me sad, all his chapters feel the same to me. I read Sanderson's books to live an amazing journey, not to feel bad every 4-5 chapters. I hope his POVs are severely reduced in this book.

 

[Innovation]

33 minutes ago, Jace said:

Kaladin is my favorite character but i can't stand his point of views nowadays. He is not making any personal progress and it makes me sad, all his chapters feel the same to me. I read Sanderson's books to live an amazing journey, not to feel bad every 4-5 chapters. I hope his POVs are severely reduced in this book.

 

Kaladin had depression in the Way of Kings, but he got over it with an objective. Same as in Oathbringer. Both times, he got his objective quickly after the depression came in and completed it by the end of the book. I believe we will see the same thing here. All we have are 10 chapters, after all. 

[Rainier]

3 hours ago, robardin said:

"Hello, Lasting Integrity! I'm Kaladin Stormblessed, and this here is Sylphrena, the Ancient Daughter, and we're the Fabulous Blues Bonded. We came here tonight to get you all back on board, because we're getting the BAND back together again.... We're on a mission from gods!"

I'll have three orange whips.

 

Quote

 

We're so glad to see so many of you lovely Honorspren here tonight. We'd especially like to welcome all the representatives of Lasting Integrity's oath enforcement community who have chosen to join us here in the Palace Hotel Ballroom at this time. We certainly hope you all enjoy the show. And remember people, that no matter who you are or what you do to live, thrive, and survive, there's still some things that make us all the same. You. Me. Them. Everybody. Everybody.

You know, people, when you do find somebody bond that woman, bond that man.
Love him, please him, squeeze her, please her
Hold, squeeze and please that person, give 'em all your power
Signify your feelings with every word accepted
Because it’s so important to have that special somebody
To bond, kiss, miss, squeeze, and please

I need you, you you.

I need you, you you.

I need you, you you.

 

*Insert Kaladin jamming out on Hoid's flute while dancing*

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by Rainier

[+robardin]

45 minutes ago, Rainier said:

We're so glad to see so many of you lovely Honorspren here tonight. We'd especially like to welcome all the representatives of Lasting Integrity's oath enforcement community who have chosen to join us here in the Palace Hotel Ballroom at this time. We certainly hope you all enjoy the show. And remember people, that no matter who you are or what you do to live, thrive, and survive, there's still some things that make us all the same. You. Me. Them. Everybody. Everybody.

You know, people, when you do find somebody bond that woman, bond that man. ...

You miserable human! You've betrayed your oaths once already!

No, I didn't! Honest! I was always going to the palace to protect Elhokar, but I... I ran out of Stormlight! The chull wagon broke down, and I didn't have enough spheres to hitch a ride! My uniform was getting repaired! My parents suddenly came in from Hearthstone! Someone stole my spear! There was an unexpected highstorm! A terrible chasmfiend! A swarm of flying cremlings! IT WASN'T MY FAULT, I SWEAR TO HONOR!!!

Edited September 8, 2020 by robardin

[Karger]

8 hours ago, Pattern said:

"I will protect myself - so I can continue to protect others"

That seems good.  Unfortunately I am pretty sure that it is included in Teft's rendition or ideal three.

8 hours ago, Shardsplinter said:

Tin diminisher theory confirmed. Koodles. Changes polarization? Did someone really get what that means? Like you need them to switch between painrial and pain inducer?

Seems so.  Navani's painrail does work that way.

8 hours ago, Shardsplinter said:

PS: How did that God Beyond got in the middle of that!!! Does this mean that that warmth Dalinar referred to when he said Honor was dead but there was still something beyond him is actually the God Beyond!!!!!!!!!!!OMG....B?

Dalinar is a liberal theist.  He believes in a God he is just not sure if such a being is understandable by humans.

8 hours ago, Harbour said:

Honestly, the way Kaladin ordered around Honorspren felt very un-Kaladin move. 

Well that spren was being pretty racist.  Also that spren was being insubordinate.  Also we don't know much about honorspren or their relationship to Kaladin.

8 hours ago, Victory said:

I guess Dalinar finally found the god greater than Honor he's been looking for ever since learning that Honor is dead. The aptly named the God Beyond. I wonder how he learned of that. Spiritual Realm powers?

The god beyond is a philosophical concept.  The idea of some being that is beyond the shards or even adonalsium.

7 hours ago, _edgedancer said:

1. Does anything feel perturbed by the ominous ending to this chapter? Makes me nervous.. perhaps Kaladin isn’t as safe as we all think he is. 

5 hours ago, Gilphon said:

I'll be brutally honest: as of this chapter, I'm officially sick of Kaladin's moping. Like I'm now hoping that we're done with him for the rest of part 1, just so he has time to get into a better headspace offscreen.

7 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

If only there was some other legendary hero-soldier who also freezes up at the sign of battle...

Give me my Taln and Kaladin buddy road-trip movie!

I think I will respond to you all here as your thoughts touch mine.  It is actually quite common rendition of the road back stage of the hero's journey(stridently this is by far the most dangerous stage of the hero's journey).  The pacifist mentor to the hero who can no longer fight is also a recurring character if you knew where to look for him.  Kaladin is currently at the regression stage of his journey.  The consequences of his choices are manifesting and he is not sure if he like the result.  Generally this stage ends with our hero dying or becoming a villain.  If the story ends here we just saw a tragedy.  The death of the hero however leaves room for hope.  If the hero is able to keep going he will journey through the underworld, resurrect, and return with the answer to his questions thus completing the cycle. 

Edited September 8, 2020 by Karger