Shardsplinter

Is Adolin Edgedancer material?

44 posts in this topic

18 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Now, you may say that Kaladin was denied justice (and equality). But he wasn't ignored. Somebody took active steps against him.

He was very much ignored. They saw a darkeyes challenging a lighteyes and let their prejudice decide for them without even listening to him. It may not be a typical argument of ignored, but just as the oaths can be interpreted in different manners, so too can these scenes.

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, that makes such a discussion ultimately meaningless. If the oaths can have an arbitrary meaning, there is nothing to discuss.

They're not stating that the oaths are arbitrary, just that they are not hard and fast rules. One Edgedancer could see 'remembering those who have been forgotten' as remembering all the beggars and such in the slums, another take it to represent those who have died in jails without receiving any judgement.
Just like that, one Edgedancer could see what happened to Kal as simply what happens when you step out of line, and still be entirely within their oaths, but another might see Kaladin as having been ignored by the lighteyes and therefore feel that theirs oaths oblige them to help him.

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1 hour ago, Realmatic Shadow said:

He was very much ignored. They saw a darkeyes challenging a lighteyes and let their prejudice decide for them without even listening to him. It may not be a typical argument of ignored, but just as the oaths can be interpreted in different manners, so too can these scenes.

They're not stating that the oaths are arbitrary, just that they are not hard and fast rules. One Edgedancer could see 'remembering those who have been forgotten' as remembering all the beggars and such in the slums, another take it to represent those who have died in jails without receiving any judgement.
Just like that, one Edgedancer could see what happened to Kal as simply what happens when you step out of line, and still be entirely within their oaths, but another might see Kaladin as having been ignored by the lighteyes and therefore feel that theirs oaths oblige them to help him.

So first and foremost, not saying adolin couldn't be an edgedancer but I don't think using kaladin in jail is entirely accurate. Remembering those that have been forgotten regarding Gawx was not only "people in authority ". His own allies or people ditched him too. Everyone out for themselves. Which is why lift not forgetting him was important. She really was the only one that remembered him. Kaladin on the other hand was certainly not forgotten by the bridgemen. He had to practically order them not to try to break him out or rebel. Dalinar stood up to elhokar for kaladin and visited regularly.  So again, does not sound like he was forgotten. 

That also extends to being ignored. Nale was certainly not being ignored by anyone in authority. He had a personal fear that was not being heard and lift heard it. Again with kaladin, bridge four heard him.  Dalinar heard him. Syl even heard him. They just didnt agree with his associated actions or conclusions. Which lift did the same. She didnt agree with nale about the voidbringers not having returned. But she listened and understood him. So i don't feel kaladin was ignored.

 

(For reference, where dalinar definitely did listen)

 

Words of Radiance page 749

“You have something to say?”

“You don’t want to know what I think, sir.”

“Perhaps I don’t. I probably need to hear it anyway.”

 

Words of Radiance page 750

“I gave you a position no darkeyes has ever held in this army. I let you into conferences with the king, and I listened when you spoke. Do not make me regret those decisions, soldier.”

“You don’t already?” Kaladin asked.

“I’ve come close,” Dalinar said. “I understand, though. If you truly believe what you told me about Amaram . . . well, if I’d been in your place, I’d have been hard pressed not to do the same thing you did. But storm it, man, you’re still a darkeyes.”

“It shouldn’t matter.”

“Maybe it shouldn’t, but it does. You want to change that? Well, you’re not going to do it by screaming like a lunatic and challenging men like Amaram to duels. You’ll do it by distinguishing yourself in the position I gave you. Be the kind of man that others admire, whether they be lighteyed or dark. Convince Elhokar that a darkeyes can lead. That will change the world.”

 

Now compare that to Lift

 

Arcanum Unbound page 663

“I will listen,” Lift shouted, “to those who have been ignored!”

“What?” Darkness demanded.

“I heard what you said, Darkness! You were trying to prevent the Desolation. Look behind you! Deny what you’re seeing!”

Lightning broke the air and howls rose in the city. Across the farmlands, the ruby glare revealed a huddled clump of people. A sorry, sad group. The poor parshmen who had been evicted. The red lightning seemed to linger with them. Their eyes were glowing.

“No,” Nale said. The storm appeared to withdraw, briefly, around his words. “An … isolated event. Parshmen who had … who had survived with their forms…”

“You’ve failed,” Lift shouted. “It’s come.”

Edited by Pathfinder
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@Oltux72 the thing is, you are wrong here. We have a WoB earlier in this thread outright stating that Maya if she was alive would be willing to bond Adolin. That makes him Edgedancer material. Whether you like that or not is up to you but saying that he doesn't fit the Oaths is just wrong. My arguments have been ways to explain it, while yours have been to deny that fact.

@Pathfinder what Kaladin needed was someone in authority to listen to him. I said before that Dalinar and Adolin were the only two outside of Bridge Four who did listen to him and even Dalinar was hesitant to believe him. Kaladin believed he was ignored, even by Dalinar, and Adolin was the first who told him that he believed Kaladin.

I think it's important to remember that Adolin isn't broken like Radiants typically are and as such he likely lacks the experience needed to truly needs.

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Remember Way of Kings when Adolin stands up for the prostitute in the warcamps that the Sadeas men were bothering.  Seemed very Edgedancerery to me.

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3 hours ago, StanLemon said:

 

@Pathfinder what Kaladin needed was someone in authority to listen to him. I said before that Dalinar and Adolin were the only two outside of Bridge Four who did listen to him and even Dalinar was hesitant to believe him. Kaladin believed he was ignored, even by Dalinar, and Adolin was the first who told him that he believed Kaladin.

I think it's important to remember that Adolin isn't broken like Radiants typically are and as such he likely lacks the experience needed to truly needs.

so again, just want to stress i am not saying that adolin couldn't be an edgedancer. My point was that the moment with kaladin is not necessarily indicative of the oath. Kaladin has not been ignored nor forgotten. No where in lifts oaths or anything we have seen with edgedancers has stated you have to be forgotten or ignored by an authority figure. Gawx was ignored by other thieves. Nale was not listened to period. Lift remembered gawx and went back for him when no one else would. Lift listened to an enemy that was ready to kill her and understand him despite it. Kaladin was remembered by the bridgemen, dalinar and adolin, so adolin is not unique in this. Kaladin was not forgotten by the bridgemen, Dalinar and adolin. The bridgemen stood guard when they didnt have to that they didnt forget kaladin so much. Kaladin knew he wasnt forgotten or ignored. He says as much. Its that he is fighting his depression. 

So TLDR,  no where that i can recall does it require there to be an authority figure to remember or listen to be valid for the oath. If thats the case then dalinar should be edgedancer material as well. Again not saying adolin cannot be an edgedancer. I just dont see that example as particularly note worthy in regards to the oaths.

 

Words of Radiance page 777

In order to keep the darkness at bay, he had begun planning. What would he do when he got out? When he got out. He had to tell himself that forcibly. It wasn’t that he didn’t trust Dalinar. His mind, though . . . his mind betrayed him, and whispered things that were not true.

 

Words of Radiance page 783

“What did you say, Rock?” Kaladin said. “You cooked a stew for each day I was locked in prison?”

“No,” Teft said, scratching his beard. “The storming Horneater has been cooking a single pot, letting it simmer for weeks now. He won’t let us try it, and insists on getting up at night and tending it.”

“Is celebratory stew,” Rock said, folding his arms. “Must simmer long time.”

“Well, let’s get to it, then,” Kaladin said. “I could certainly use something better than prison food.”

The men cheered, piling off toward their barrack. As they moved, Kaladin grabbed Teft by the arm.

“How did the men take it?” he asked. “My imprisonment?”

“There was talk of breaking you out,” Teft admitted softly. “I beat some sense into them. Ain’t no good soldier who hasn’t spent a day or two locked up. It’s part of the job. They didn’t demote you, so they just wanted to slap your wrist a little. The men saw the truth of it.”

Kaladin nodded.

Teft glanced at the others. “There’s quite a lot of anger among them about this Amaram fellow. And a lot of interest. Anything about your past gets them talking, you know.”

“Lead them back to the barrack,” Kaladin said. “I’ll join you in a moment.”

“Don’t take too long,” Teft said. “The lads have been guarding this doorway for three weeks now. You owe them their celebration.”

Edited by Pathfinder
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Random speculation here with no proof of anything. Just an interesting idea: Perhaps what is going on with Shallan could progress Adolin along the Edgedancer path. There is a Formless personality within Shallan that seems to want to make an appearance. A personality that has been forgotten and ignored. Husband and Potentially Proto-Radiant Adolin (there's a title for you) could be the best person to remember and listen to this personality of his wife. No idea how that situation could arise, but who knows? Stranger things have happened. :ph34r:

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8 hours ago, ProfessorMLyon said:

Random speculation here with no proof of anything. Just an interesting idea: Perhaps what is going on with Shallan could progress Adolin along the Edgedancer path. There is a Formless personality within Shallan that seems to want to make an appearance. A personality that has been forgotten and ignored. Husband and Potentially Proto-Radiant Adolin (there's a title for you) could be the best person to remember and listen to this personality of his wife. No idea how that situation could arise, but who knows? Stranger things have happened. :ph34r:

Yeah, I had the same feeling. Adolin is able to reconise his wife's personalities, so its possible that he will be the one who force Last Truth from Shallan. He will listen all of four of them and this will help Shallan and kick him forward to become Radiant.

Reading last Chapter I also had feeling that Adolin will be the one who will be mediator between Venli's fraction and Dalinar. Remember, he was connected to Eshonai in few ways (first he listen to her, later he kills her).

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The criteria for becoming a Radiant are only loosely related to their oaths. Shallan was not selected because she was exceptionally true to herself -- she was probably the least true to herself of any character in Way of Kings. Pattern came to her because of her artistic inclinations, and especially because of her exceptional facility with lying. There's a certain kind of personality, distinct from any Ideals, that draws each kind of Nahel spren.

As best I can tell, Adolin is a fine example of the personality for Edgedancers. It's true that he might fit slightly better as a Stoneward, but he's still a pretty good match here. As has already been shown, he's repeatedly demonstrated a moral urge to stand up for the downtrodden, regardless of how technically they fit your exacting definition of "forgotten" or "ignored". Remember we aren't talking about a Skybreaker here. It doesn't matter whether a dictionary would call Kaladin ignored -- it matters how Adolin feels about it. And it's clear that, just like with the prostitute, with his brother, and in several other cases, his fundamental motivation here is a moral belief that not helping downtrodden people would just be *wrong*. He's not living by any oaths, that's true; but he's clearly demonstrating that he strongly believes in the general principles there.

Additionally, there's the mentioned ability to tell Shallan, Veil, and Radiant apart -- and that isn't the only use of that talent. Adolin has frequently shown himself to be an extraordinarily good listener, almost uncannily so; he regularly picks up on subtle cues and semi-conscious signals that no one else can even spot. Honestly, aside from his swordplay, probably his single most emphasized talent is his remarkable ability to understand and connect with people.

Edited by Wonko the Sane
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So this discussion has definitely made me excited to see an Edgedancer journey from Adolin.

Not because he's already a great Edgedancer, but because he's in that sweet spot right on the boundary. People here have made great points about why he's a good fit, but also great points about why he's not.

And I think that's perfect. If he was already living by all the oaths, there'd be no journey left, he just swears them and keeps doing his thing. If his personality completely didn't match, then it would be absurd that he becomes an Edgedancer just to fit his sword. But as he is - he's right on the boundary. He's thinking in some of the right directions, but clearly has a long way to go. Actually living by the oaths is gonna take some rough character growth for him - as it should! But it'll require growth rather than a complete character rewrite.

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So bunch of things to reply to, but I will reinforce one more time, never said Adolin could not become an egedancer. Nor did I ever say he lacks the personality.

 

8 hours ago, Wonko the Sane said:

The criteria for becoming a Radiant are only loosely related to their oaths. Shallan was not selected because she was exceptionally true to herself -- she was probably the least true to herself of any character in Way of Kings. Pattern came to her because of her artistic inclinations, and especially because of her exceptional facility with lying. There's a certain kind of personality, distinct from any Ideals, that draws each kind of Nahel spren.

The ideals for lightweavers are honesty and creativity. So Shallan attracting Pattern via her artistic inclination would be in line with the ideals of a lightweaver. 

8 hours ago, Wonko the Sane said:

As best I can tell, Adolin is a fine example of the personality for Edgedancers. It's true that he might fit slightly better as a Stoneward, but he's still a pretty good match here. As has already been shown, he's repeatedly demonstrated a moral urge to stand up for the downtrodden, regardless of how technically they fit your exacting definition of "forgotten" or "ignored". Remember we aren't talking about a Skybreaker here. It doesn't matter whether a dictionary would call Kaladin ignored -- it matters how Adolin feels about it. And it's clear that, just like with the prostitute, with his brother, and in several other cases, his fundamental motivation here is a moral belief that not helping downtrodden people would just be *wrong*. He's not living by any oaths, that's true; but he's clearly demonstrating that he strongly believes in the general principles there.

Adolin would have known that a bridge 4 member was guarding the door everyday of Kaladin's duration behind bars. So Adolin would have known Kaladin was not being forgotten by his men. Which is the point I was trying to make. I never said Adolin couldn't be an edgedancer nor did I say he lacks the personality. All I said was I do not believe that situation applies to either oath to speak in regards to him having "already lived the oaths". Further, to me, whether or not Adolin has lived the oaths is immaterial as we know for a fact from WoB that re-swearing the oaths if you are not the original knight bonded to the spren will not restore it. Something "extra" has to be done. Which is why I have my theory about Dalinar and his connection powers (but I will not digress into my theory). 

 

so TLDR: Adolin could totally become an edgedancer and could totally have a personality of one. I just do not see that example with Kaladin as being a moment where he would have sworn an oath had Maya been a living spren. Hope that clarifies things. 

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Adolin is not an edgedancer. Graceful isn't really a word that suits him.

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28 minutes ago, Caden335 said:

Graceful isn't really a word that suits him.

Would you say 'graceful' is a word that would describe Lift very well? That seems to be more of a historical association with them, not necessarily some requirement for someone to be and Edgedancer.

See also: his duels have been described by various characters as 'graceful', so in-world characters seem to disagree with you there.

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1 hour ago, Caden335 said:

Adolin is not an edgedancer. Graceful isn't really a word that suits him.

The man's fashionable incarnate.

Oh and also he duels well.

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While I would like to see Adolin 'just' become an Edgedancer with Maya as his resurrected Blade, there's something I would like even more:

We already have two very different 'aberrant' Knights Radiant, Renarin and Venli. Or three, if you count Wit. B) How about Adolin becoming, or rather already beginning to be, something New? An aberrant sort of Knight Radiant by virtue of his Blade being technically dead, but not quite so anymore? With her only being fully resurrected as a climax at the end, if at all?

He might even be able to make other Shardbearers more aware of what their Blade really is, and help them follow in his footsteps. Of course it always takes two, but other dead spren might like being treated as Adolin treats Maya, and respond to it.
 

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16 hours ago, Erklitt said:

While I would like to see Adolin 'just' become an Edgedancer with Maya as his resurrected Blade, there's something I would like even more:

We already have two very different 'aberrant' Knights Radiant, Renarin and Venli. Or three, if you count Wit. B) How about Adolin becoming, or rather already beginning to be, something New? An aberrant sort of Knight Radiant by virtue of his Blade being technically dead, but not quite so anymore? With her only being fully resurrected as a climax at the end, if at all?

He might even be able to make other Shardbearers more aware of what their Blade really is, and help them follow in his footsteps. Of course it always takes two, but other dead spren might like being treated as Adolin treats Maya, and respond to it.
 

I agree here! It seems to be a running theme so far, that the Radiants are managing to do things that weren't possible before. I don't think the bond between Adolin and Maya would be as simple as him just straight-up becoming an Edgedancer. Sure, if he continues with Maya, then he could go down that path, but what if he just slowly becomes something closer to a squire or something, not quite a Radiant because Maya is dead, but not just a Shardbearer because they do have some sort of bond?

Adolin's path towards healing Maya would be so much more interesting than him just becoming a regular Radiant.

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On Kaladin being ignored/forgotten I think what matters is as much or more the point of view of the receiver than it is from the PoV of the giver.

Very few people are ignored or forgotten by every other intelligent being in the world but very many do feel like it at times. If I remember correctly what drew syl was how Kal made his men feel.

So Adolin going to comfort Kaladin when he felt ignored and forgotten might very well be oath stuff for Adolin. Or it might not be, one could argue that preexisting friendship or being the heir to the highprince makes it his duty and thus nullifies any good deed.

 

I tend to believe that Adolin chosing to believe Kaladin and support him in those dark moments by being there is prime material for edgedancers but to each his own.

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9 hours ago, Djerf said:

On Kaladin being ignored/forgotten I think what matters is as much or more the point of view of the receiver than it is from the PoV of the giver.

Not to nitpick, but gawx was unconscious/dying when lift swore her oath. So how did his point of view apply in feeling remembered when he was not even cognizant?

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1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Not to nitpick, but gawx was unconscious/dying when lift swore her oath. So how did his point of view apply in feeling remembered when he was not even cognizant?

I mean we could assume his soul is aware to some degree, I do think it applies, but that would be speculation so wild I've long left the source material. 

Gawx was a pawn and a sacrifice no doubt about it, his situation was way worse than Kaladins but then it was the climatic moment where Lift swore her oath not the general behaviour of a Radiant. Doing a quick read of the passages the situations appears very different but can be read as the same general behaviour. What Adolin did feels more like the unsure fumbeling of someone who does not know what he is doing but knows he wants to do something.

I might have to modify statement but I will stand firm that the PoV of both victim, Radiant and perhaps even the observers matter in these things. 

In the end doesn't the gemstone archive talk about how the edgedancers are to busy relocating the servants and such to attend making their own gemstones. Those servants are very unlikely to be forgotten and ignored, they would at the very least have their own communities full of people who care about each other but the edgedancers took it upon themselves to care where they did not need to.

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2 hours ago, Djerf said:

I mean we could assume his soul is aware to some degree, I do think it applies, but that would be speculation so wild I've long left the source material. 

Totally respect your speculation. I disagree, but I wish you luck with it!

Quote

Gawx was a pawn and a sacrifice no doubt about it, his situation was way worse than Kaladins but then it was the climatic moment where Lift swore her oath not the general behaviour of a Radiant. Doing a quick read of the passages the situations appears very different but can be read as the same general behaviour. What Adolin did feels more like the unsure fumbeling of someone who does not know what he is doing but knows he wants to do something.

Just in case, my intent was not to say one was worse than the other. Everyone has their own crosses to bear, and Kaladin swearing the second oath while trying to protect bridgemen about to die while Lopen swears the second oath while talking to a soldier that just lost the limb doesn't change the fact that they both swore the oath, and they both protected those that couldn't protect themselves. It doesn't change the strength of the moment for the radiants and those they protected. What I am saying however, I will get to later in this post. 

Quote

I might have to modify statement but I will stand firm that the PoV of both victim, Radiant and perhaps even the observers matter in these things. 

I respect your belief. I disagree with it, but I wish you luck with your theory!

Quote

In the end doesn't the gemstone archive talk about how the edgedancers are to busy relocating the servants and such to attend making their own gemstones. Those servants are very unlikely to be forgotten and ignored, they would at the very least have their own communities full of people who care about each other but the edgedancers took it upon themselves to care where they did not need to.

So here is the full quote:

 

"The Edgedancers are too busy relocating the tower's servants and farmers to send a representative to record their thoughts in these gemstones. I'll do it for them, then. They are the ones who will be most displaced by this decision. The Radiants will be taken in by nations, but what of all these people without homes?"

 

So the radiants who made the decision to abandon the tower already have places to go. The servants and farmers on the other hand will be the most displaced by this decision, and will be left without homes. No one thought of what would happen to those people. Except the edgedancers. Who rememebering the forgotten, are more concerned with finding a home for these people, than recording a legacy for their order. Sounds in line with what I think and expect of the order.

 

So why do I keep harping on that scenario being oath worthy? And again I zero in on oath worthy. I am not saying Adolin could not be an edgedancer. I am not saying he does not think like one. I am saying had Maya been living in that moment, Adolin (to me) would not have sworn an oath. If we look at every oath sworn for every other knight, it involves a deep personal realization.

Lift realized Gawx was abandoned by his own people, and partially his own family (he was related to one of the thieves). He had no one else. He was nothing to her. She had just met him that night. 

Now let us compare that to Adolin

Adolin knows Kaladin's entire bridge 4 group and new recruits on top of that all support him. So much so that they kept a guard stationed by the door every single day of Kaladin's incarceration. He had to have seen it on his way in to his jail cell. Further Adolin had full care and accommodations in line with his rank. He had communication with the outside world, and knew what was happening. He also knew Dalinar was fighting on Kaladin's behalf to King Elhokar. Kaladin knew he was not abandoned. Kaladin says so himself, and admits he is fighting against his depression. Adolin knew Kaladin. Kaladin saved his life. Kaladin had a whole host of people that remember him and listen to him. In fact that was one of the big moments before Kaladin was hung upside down in front of a storm. Bridge 4 said they would remember Kaladin. Even if he did die in the storm. Even if every one of them died on a bridge run. They would remember what Kaladin had did for them, and pass it on. I will take it even further that "Stormblessed" is a legend across the camps. 

This is in no way shape or form meant to diminish Adolin's accomplishments. It was good and right that he stood up for his friend. That he took a stand against Elhokar. I could even see it as perhaps a skybreaker oath or willshaper depending on how you understand their oaths. That "I will not stand by while injustice exists". But that honestly is just not edgedancer oath material for me. I do not see Adolin swearing to remember those that are forgotten, or listening to those that are ignored while he was in that jail cell. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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