Shardsplinter

Is Adolin Edgedancer material?

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So far there has been a lot of talk about wether or not Adolin will be able to bring Maya back. Though we still don't know what that would require, one thing seems to have general concensus: Adolin would have to become an Edgedancer and possibly even say the oaths before he could bring Maya back.

So, that leads to my question: Do you think that the order of KR's that fits him best is Edgedancer? And more importantly:  Has he already swore unconsciously any of the oaths? Maybe the first, but do you think he has already embraced the spirit of remembering those forgotten and listening to those ignored? Is this part of the Journey we can expect from him in the upcomimg book?

PS: Wasn't sure If this would be a better fit for Charachter Discussion, but since everything about bringing back dead shardblades was on Lore and Magic decided to upload here.

Edited by Shardsplinter
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4 minutes ago, Shardsplinter said:

So, that leads to my question: Do you think that the order of KR's that fits him best is Edgedancer?

No. He lacks the haughty nature of many Lighteyes of high dahn towards the poor and lower classes, but he also lacks the notion of aiding them or feeding the poor or that grim realism Lift displays. He is merely fair.

His calling is one of self-improvement and competition and treating his men well and fairly and of leadership. Edgedancers is not his thing. Dustbringer, Elsecaller, Stoneward, Windrunner, Skybreaker rather than Edgedancer. He is a fighter and a killer, not a helper or defender. Dustbringer seems closest to what he is.

 

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6 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

No. He lacks the haughty nature of many Lighteyes of high dahn towards the poor and lower classes, but he also lacks the notion of aiding them or feeding the poor or that grim realism Lift displays. He is merely fair.

His calling is one of self-improvement and competition and treating his men well and fairly and of leadership. Edgedancers is not his thing. Dustbringer, Elsecaller, Stoneward, Windrunner, Skybreaker rather than Edgedancer. He is a fighter and a killer, not a helper or defender. Dustbringer seems closest to what he is.

 

This is exactly what's been bothering me. The narrative seems to be pointing to his bond with Maya becoming stronger (like summoning her on 7secs or her trying to protect him) but she's a cultivationspren; so how would that work? Maybe, we are going to start to see an Adolin that cares more for the commun folk. After all he has never liked war, he's more of a dueling kind of guy which fits the whole special force Edgedancers seem to have and all that graceful and skilled prowess in battle thing. So, maybe like I said se can expect his charachter arc to move into this direction in the next book? Although I don't see all of that self-improvement and competitivity going away, but who knows, there most be more than one formula for each order.

PS: I just really want him to Bond Maya....

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There is this 

Quote

CrazyRioter

Would Maya have wanted to bond with Adolin if she were alive?

Brandon Sanderson

I think so.

Skype Q&A (Oct. 8, 2018)

But I can certainly see how he fits into the Stonewards as well, most characters can match a couple of the Orders. It's worth noting that not every Edgedancer is going to be like, or approach a situation like Lift. She grew up on the streets and so will help people in a different way to someone who grew up in a life of privilege, this doesn't mean that Adolin's actions or views aren't valid Edgedancer material. Perhaps we'll see more of it from him as the bond progresses, maybe we'll see another approach to the life of an Edgedancer.

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I think he has the potential for it anyway. Becoming a Radiant isn't a goal in and of itself, it's the start of a journey that frequently involves personal growth and change (journey before destination, after all).

19 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

No. He lacks the haughty nature of many Lighteyes of high dahn towards the poor and lower classes, but he also lacks the notion of aiding them or feeding the poor or that grim realism Lift displays. He is merely fair.

His calling is one of self-improvement and competition and treating his men well and fairly and of leadership. Edgedancers is not his thing. Dustbringer, Elsecaller, Stoneward, Windrunner, Skybreaker rather than Edgedancer. He is a fighter and a killer, not a helper or defender. Dustbringer seems closest to what he is.

 

I totally agree with this comment, Adolin is nicer than most lighteyes, but still pretty blind to the true struggles the darkeyes face, he's a noble in the highest position Vorin society has to offer, it's not really something that affects him at all. That being said, I think this could make for an interesting journey on the path to becoming a proper Edgedancer, the fact that he's kinder than most lighteyes shows that he has the potential for greater change. It would be a challenge for him to look past his privilege and truly listen to the unfair treatment of the darkeyes, outside the occasional mistreated soldiers or prostitutes right in front of him, but that's what makes character arcs interesting. Being in the position of power and influence he is, he could do so much more for the common people as well, rather than just healing the sick and supporting townspeople, he could make real change in the system itself.

I think one major factor in which spren bond which humans is just proximity and convenience. Sigzil and Lopen don't seem like prime Windrunner material, but they were Kaladin's squires so they had the attention of the honorspren, and managed to do a good job of it. I think a similar thing could happen in Adolin's case, he might not have gained the attention of the cultivationspren normally, but due to his relationship to Maya, she may decide to she wants to bond him regardless.

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On 9/7/2020 at 4:11 AM, Shardsplinter said:

do you think he has already embraced the spirit of remembering those forgotten and listening to those ignored?

Isn't that kind of exactly what he's doing with Maya though?

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Not to mention treating his brother like a person.

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3 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

Isn't that kind of exactly what he's doing with Maya though?

No. She is his Blade. He does not remember the forgotten, as in Blades in general. He honors and comforts his friend.

2 hours ago, Agent34 said:

Not to mention treating his brother like a person.

Again, his brother. Stoneward, if anything.

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On 7.09.2020 at 10:11 AM, Shardsplinter said:

 

So, that leads to my question: Do you think that the order of KR's that fits him best is Edgedancer? And more importantly:  Has he already swore unconsciously any of the oaths? Maybe the first, but do you think he has already embraced the spirit of remembering those forgotten and listening to those ignored? Is this part of the Journey we can expect from him in the upcomimg book?

 

On 7.09.2020 at 10:44 AM, Oltux72 said:

No. He lacks the haughty nature of many Lighteyes of high dahn towards the poor and lower classes, but he also lacks the notion of aiding them or feeding the poor or that grim realism Lift displays. He is merely fair.

His calling is one of self-improvement and competition and treating his men well and fairly and of leadership. Edgedancers is not his thing. Dustbringer, Elsecaller, Stoneward, Windrunner, Skybreaker rather than Edgedancer. He is a fighter and a killer, not a helper or defender. Dustbringer seems closest to what he is.

"Merly fair" is much, much more than many, many lighteyes. He dont show as special interest to change social status quo, but wy have his PoV, we can read his thoughts and we know that he treats all people equaly. He probably smply doesnt think about darkeyes situation - but this can change now. He is Shardbearer and Highprince now, but at the same point, Radiant Squire is more valiable in battle. In some sence, his situation now is similar to high-ranked darkeyes earlier - often with money and prestige, but still with lower social status than lowest lighteyes. This wierd status can force Adolin to re-think about social structure.

Also, as I mention, he is Highprince now. For highprince, second and third Ideal of Edgedancers could be very important. So this can be it - he would be listening people whole days.

So is he perfect Edgedancer? No. But is he Edgedancer material? Definitly yes.

And come on. Windrunner yes, he fits very well. Stoneward yes, he fits, but debatable - he even dont like war at all. But Elsecaller? He fits Elsecaller main goal, but this is it. He dont fit with temperament and with self-controll. He also tend to be daring. Dustbringer? - Adolin like to keep things whole, not deconstruct them.

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

No. She is his Blade. He does not remember the forgotten, as in Blades in general. He honors and comforts his friend.

But he remembers that this sword is more than just Blade, even before he meets her in Shadesmar.

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We know someone can be a candidate for multiple orders and by the WoB further up he is absolutely a candidate for Edgedancer. Personality wise, 8 think he would make a better Stoneward. Story wise, given his relationship with Maya if he  becomes Radient he will certainly be a Edgedancer. 

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What everyone needs to keep in mind is Lift is our only point of reference on Edgedancers. As Szeth has proven, the Oaths of Radiants are spectrum even within their own Order. There could be any number of factors we still don't know about. If we only took Szeth's Oath on justice. It wouldn't match the fanatical obsession with law that the other Skybreaker's exhibit as justice and law aren't necessarily the same. 

As far as if he's remembering Maya, I'd say yes. He chose not to name her because he believed she would already have a name and that was before he knew she was a spren. 

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2 hours ago, StanLemon said:

As Szeth has proven, the Oaths of Radiants are spectrum even within their own Order.

Kaladin in his discussions with Syl also gets at this - it is the interpretation of the oaths that make the bond - they aren't rigid. He is listening to certain forgotten things (Maya) and remembering some who are ignored (Bridgemen and people of lower status who are normally ignored by those of higher status). Is Edgedancer his MAIN order best fit, probably not, but then again, if it were, there wouldn't be much of a journey would there?

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I think this could also be a way for Brandon to show that, even if you don't fit the order perfectly (or maybe would fit another order better, but that's a large debate already), if you have a spren interested in a bond with you, it can still work out. And as others have said, Radiance is the journey, not the beginning. Not everyone is going to start as the perfect Radiant when they first bond, but they can grow into it.

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He fits the Stonewards much better.

Edgedancer would require too many sacrifices from him to progress.

 

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3 hours ago, mosaab said:

He fits the Stonewards much better.

Edgedancer would require too many sacrifices from him to progress.

 

What sacrifices would he need to make?

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On 7.09.2020 at 10:11 AM, Shardsplinter said:

Has he already swore unconsciously any of the oaths?

Also, you canot unconsciously swear oaths. As well as you cannot accidently stabb someone into heart and gain hemalurgic spike, or you cannot Awake with random phrase, and you cannot tap unsealed metalmind without knowing its purpose. Magic on Cosmere requires Intent.

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4 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Also, you canot unconsciously swear oaths. As well as you cannot accidently stabb someone into heart and gain hemalurgic spike, or you cannot Awake with random phrase, and you cannot tap unsealed metalmind without knowing its purpose. Magic on Cosmere requires Intent.

I expressed myself poorly. I'm aware of how important Intent is in the Cosmere, but clearly Kal could breath in Stormlight and use a Reverse Lashing without him even realizing what he was doing(unconsciously). Obviously the oaths themselves cannot be swore unconsciously, but you can be on the proper mind set and begin to bond a spren without actually intending to do so. This is what I meant, I was asking my fellow Sharders if Adolin was in the proper mind set to bond a cultivationspren, or if he( without intending to specifically do so) was already acting in a way that matched the Edgedancer oaths. So, not if he unconsciously swore the oaths, but actually if he unconsciously begun his journey to swore them or is already prepared to swear any of them.

This is actually why I started this thread, to annalize how likely it is for Adolin to bond Maya(somehow?) and become an Edgedancer, and how much of the spirit of the order he already represents.

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7 hours ago, Shardsplinter said:

or is already prepared to swear any of them.

He is somewhat practicing the Second Ideal of The Edgedancers ("I will remember those who have been forgotten" - Lift's Second Ideal) in remembering someone (Maya) who has been forgotten ('dead' for hundreds of years). This may not be enough to actually swear the oath, but it is a good start towards it in my opinion

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12 hours ago, Realmatic Shadow said:

He is somewhat practicing the Second Ideal of The Edgedancers ("I will remember those who have been forgotten" - Lift's Second Ideal) in remembering someone (Maya) who has been forgotten ('dead' for hundreds of years). This may not be enough to actually swear the oath, but it is a good start towards it in my opinion

An argument could be made for the second Oath too. Remember when he chose to be jailed when Kaladin was. And he listened to Kaladin about Amaram. Maybe Edgedancers aren't the ideal Order for him but I think he has the right stuff for it

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Another thought I just had is that although Edgedancer may not initially be his best fit, it may fit his upcoming journey - we don't know where he's going storywise but we know he has some things to learn and ways in which he can grow.

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On 11/09/2020 at 5:25 PM, StanLemon said:

An argument could be made for the second Oath too. Remember when he chose to be jailed when Kaladin was. And he listened to Kaladin about Amaram. Maybe Edgedancers aren't the ideal Order for him but I think he has the right stuff for it

Kaladin wasn't forgotten. Not nearly. They were discussing making his head roll. Just because he was jailed, they were not going to forget him there and let him rot. Adolin was standing by his friends. By the man whom he owed his life to.

Edgedancers are Angelina Jolie or Brad Pitt. You can be rich and famous and fulfill the role. But that is not Adolin. He is rather, well, Clint Eastwood.

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7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Kaladin wasn't forgotten. Not nearly. They were discussing making his head roll. Just because he was jailed, they were not going to forget him there and let him rot. Adolin was standing by his friends. By the man whom he owed his life to.

Edgedancers are Angelina Jolie or Brad Pitt. You can be rich and famous and fulfill the role. But that is not Adolin. He is rather, well, Clint Eastwood.

The second Oath isn't about remembering. It's about listening to those who have been ignored. Which is what Adolin did with Kaladin as per my initial post

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2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

The second Oath isn't about remembering. It's about listening to those who have been ignored. Which is what Adolin did with Kaladin as per my initial post

Ignored? If the king himself throws you into jail and rants about stringing you up, you are not ignored. And Kaladin was listened to. In fact, that was his problem. Now, obviously he did not get what he demanded. But the oath is about listening, not heeding their wishes. Now, you may say that Kaladin was denied justice (and equality). But he wasn't ignored. Somebody took active steps against him.

Edgedancers are not about simple justice. If you want that, take a Skybreaker. They did execute the crooked warden.
Edgedancers are about those who suffer, not because they were decieved or robbed, but because they are so unimportant that nobody ever bothered about them. Nobody is out to get them. They are just not even important.

Lift would feed you just because you are hungry. Adolin wouldn't. He would let you enlist. But if you inherited 10th nahn and eat only every third day because your ancestors screwed up, well, not his problem. Neither would he hold it against you. But that is not the same thing.

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27 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Ignored? If the king himself throws you into jail and rants about stringing you up, you are not ignored. And Kaladin was listened to. In fact, that was his problem. Now, obviously he did not get what he demanded. But the oath is about listening, not heeding their wishes. Now, you may say that Kaladin was denied justice (and equality). But he wasn't ignored. Somebody took active steps against him.

I'm sorry but you are clearly missing the point of the Oath. Only two people of authority listened to what Kaladin had to say. Adolin and Dalinar, and even Dalinar didn't want to believe him. Kaladin was just dismissed as crazy and trying to smear Amaram by the king, that's not the same as listening to him.

Quote

Edgedancers are not about simple justice. If you want that, take a Skybreaker. They did execute the crooked warden.

I've never once even implied that they were about

Quote

Edgedancers are about those who suffer, not because they were decieved or robbed, but because they are so unimportant that nobody ever bothered about them. Nobody is out to get them. They are just not even important.

Are you saying that Kaladin wasn't suffering? If someone stole your accomplishment and claimed it as their own, wouldn't you want someone to listen to you?

Quote

Lift would feed you just because you are hungry. Adolin wouldn't. He would let you enlist. But if you inherited 10th nahn and eat only every third day because your ancestors screwed up, well, not his problem. Neither would he hold it against you. But that is not the same thing.

The Oaths can be interpreted differently for each Radiant, take Szeth versus all of the other Skybreakers for example. Lift is only one point of reference for Edgedancers and Szeth has proven there is variation. 

Edited by StanLemon
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15 hours ago, StanLemon said:

I'm sorry but you are clearly missing the point of the Oath. Only two people of authority listened to what Kaladin had to say. Adolin and Dalinar, and even Dalinar didn't want to believe him. Kaladin was just dismissed as crazy and trying to smear Amaram by the king, that's not the same as listening to him.

Well, those are the rules And only becuse Kaladin makes a claim, he cannot expect to just be believed without evidence.

15 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Are you saying that Kaladin wasn't suffering? If someone stole your accomplishment and claimed it as their own, wouldn't you want someone to listen to you?

Again, if somebody steals something from me, I am not ignored. I would seek justice. But then my problem is injustice not being ignored.

15 hours ago, StanLemon said:

The Oaths can be interpreted differently for each Radiant, take Szeth versus all of the other Skybreakers for example. Lift is only one point of reference for Edgedancers and Szeth has proven there is variation. 

Well, that makes such a discussion ultimately meaningless. If the oaths can have an arbitrary meaning, there is nothing to discuss.

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