How did Khrissalla know the distant past?

[+Oltux72]

When did Khrissalla go to Scadrial for the first time. As she and Nazriloff met Kelsier for the first time, ash had been falling for about a thousand years, depending on the year you use. Scadrial was not a very terrestial world during that time. Yet she knew that Scadrial was an artificial creation. What led her to the conclusion?

Did Ati or Leras give guided tours or interviews in the past to show off their cool new world? Did she conclude from the total lack of non-Yolish life forms? If so she must have visited classical Scadrial? In that case we must have at least 1400 years between White Sand and Alloy of Law. Is that realistic?

[+robardin]

As scholars from Silverlight, a place and whose "universities" are only hinted at in the Ars Arcanum entries (or Arcanum Unbounded) and WoBs, what Khriss and Nazh know do not necessarily come from direct experience.

When she speaks to Kelsier in Mistborn: Secret History, she knows the names of the Vessels of Preservation and Ruin and informs Kelsier that they are two of sixteen Shards that are "pieces of God", Adonalsium, with the rest on other planets. She obviously wasn't around for the Shattering, so why be surprised that she also knows the history of Scadrial?

As a second order question, one might ask how did anybody in Silverlight ever gain that knowledge to pass along at their universities? I would say someone like Hoid or Frost are prime suspects... Though the idea that Silverlight itself could predate the Shattering is also possible, I suppose.

[Quantus]

37 minutes ago, robardin said:

As scholars from Silverlight, a place and whose "universities" are only hinted at in the Ars Arcanum entries (or Arcanum Unbounded) and WoBs, what Khriss and Nazh know do not necessarily come from direct experience.

When she speaks to Kelsier in Mistborn: Secret History, she knows the names of the Vessels of Preservation and Ruin and informs Kelsier that they are two of sixteen Shards that are "pieces of God", Adonalsium, with the rest on other planets. She obviously wasn't around for the Shattering, so why be surprised that she also knows the history of Scadrial?

As a second order question, one might ask how did anybody in Silverlight ever gain that knowledge to pass along at their universities? I would say someone like Hoid or Frost are prime suspects... Though the idea that Silverlight itself could predate the Shattering is also possible, I suppose.

^This.  Shadesmar has some active cultural presence and knowledge, including the Silverlight University, the Ire, some sort of interplanetary postal service and caravan travel, etc.

As far as how they can get information, there are a number of reasonable possibilities that we know of. Scadrial's creation would have been a pretty big event in the Cognitive Realm.  The Worlds but right up against each other, with very little space in between; a whole new and fully populated Planet appearing would be like Atlantis rising from the middle of a Kansas cornfield.

 

FYI, Khriss was involved in the founding of Silverlight, so if it predates the Shattering then so does she:

 

Quote

 

FirstSelector

Was Khriss involved in founding the (a) University at Silverlight?

Brandon Sanderson

Yup.

Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)

 

 

[+robardin]

38 minutes ago, Quantus said:

FYI, Khriss was involved in the founding of Silverlight, so if it predates the Shattering then so does she:

I seriously doubt she predates the Shattering, as she is still living her "original life" (before becoming Cosmere-aware) in the events of White Sand, is she not? She hadn't even ever been to Dayside on Taldain, or seen Investiture based magic like Sand Mastery, much less gone off-world yet.

And she was involved in setting up a (formal) University at Sliverlight, one of multiple (so maybe she's helped to found the newest one), but Silverlight itself is the designation for a city of some kind for living humans dwelling full-time in the Cognitive Realm that (presumably) already existed. It's not like the town grew up around the University, or at least I wouldn't think so (admittedly, we have very little to go on here).

[+Oltux72]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

As scholars from Silverlight, a place and whose "universities" are only hinted at in the Ars Arcanum entries (or Arcanum Unbounded) and WoBs, what Khriss and Nazh know do not necessarily come from direct experience.

The problem is that Silverlight is not advanced enough to have done research for thousands of years. Khrissallla should have carried more than a simple pistol.

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

As far as how they can get information, there are a number of reasonable possibilities that we know of. Scadrial's creation would have been a pretty big event in the Cognitive Realm.  The Worlds but right up against each other, with very little space in between; a whole new and fully populated Planet appearing would be like Atlantis rising from the middle of a Kansas cornfield.

That is an extremely strong assumption on how the CR works.

40 minutes ago, robardin said:

I seriously doubt she predates the Shattering, as she is still living her "original life" (before becoming Cosmere-aware) in the events of White Sand, is she not? She hadn't even ever been to Dayside on Taldain, or seen Investiture based magic like Sand Mastery, much less gone off-world yet.

Right. So Silverlight University postdates White Sand.

40 minutes ago, robardin said:

And she was involved in setting up a (formal) University at Sliverlight, one of multiple (so maybe she's helped to found the newest one), but Silverlight itself is the designation for a city of some kind for living humans dwelling full-time in the Cognitive Realm that (presumably) already existed. It's not like the town grew up around the University, or at least I wouldn't think so (admittedly, we have very little to go on here).

Age. By Era 2 Krissalla understood the Doppler effect, knew something about the nature of light and at least Newtonian mechanics. Yet she knew optics and primitive firearms over a thousand years before? The pace of progress is glacial.

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That is an extremely strong assumption on how the CR works.

Not really, new lifeforms, new land

7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Right. So Silverlight University postdates White Sand.

which is(to my knowledge) the earliest Cosmere work.

8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Age. By Era 2 Krissalla understood the Doppler effect, knew something about the nature of light and at least Newtonian mechanics. Yet she knew optics and primitive firearms over a thousand years before? The pace of progress is glacial.

They are scholars, not engineers, they study, they don't develop.

[+robardin]

15 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The problem is that Silverlight is not advanced enough to have done research for thousands of years. Khrissalla should have carried more than a simple pistol.

We don't know how long there have been "research universities" in Silverlight - we know Khriss helped to found one of several, whether that was the first or latest such University we don't know, but at least one of them is therefore younger than her knowledge base, yeah?

So why assume the research they do leads to weaponry? At that point of Cosmere history, in fact - the end of the Final Empire - I would say that her native Taldain flintlock pistol may be the most advanced non-Investiture hand weapon available, of the worlds we've seen. Rashek had squashed gunpowder based weapons on Scadrial for a thousand years, and the concurrent or previous scenes we've read that take place on Sel, Nalthis, Roshar, etc., have nothing like that.

(And her original Taldain level of technology (as seen in that pistol) would encompass an understanding of Newtonian mechanics about mass and momentum and so on, as she talks about with Wax.)

But I do agree that Silverlight has not done "research for thousands of years" - that is different from having collected knowledge of events dating back thousands of years. For the latter, all you need is a trusted, verifiable source... Hoid? Frost? Some kind of Rashek-style plaque left behind by Adonalsium? ("If you are reading this, know that I have been Shattered...") We just don't know enough yet about this area.

Actually, we have WoBs referenced in the Coppermind that Khriss is (a) of the 17th Shard (the Frost contingent) and (b) the most Cosmere-aware (of past and current events) of any character, including Hoid, so she's gone beyond Frost and Hoid both. Maybe she did find an Adonalsium plaque! Or is just more up on "current events" because she 'hops around so much.

Edited September 2, 2020 by robardin

[theTruthshaper]

17 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Age. By Era 2 Krissalla understood the Doppler effect, knew something about the nature of light and at least Newtonian mechanics. Yet she knew optics and primitive firearms over a thousand years before? The pace of progress is glacial.

Are you arguing that Krissalla should have know more physics? I am not sure what your argument is, here.

Also you miss the fact that the Physics of the scholars at Silverlight has a hard limit with our world's physics.(And an even lower limit at Sanderson's understanding of it) Sanderson cannot go past it, no matter how much in-universe time passes. The main research of Silverlight would indubitably be about Investiture and Realmatic Theory.

Edited September 2, 2020 by The_Truthwatcher

[+Oltux72]

18 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Not really, new lifeforms, new land

Yes, the strong assumption is that you would notice this elsewhere. The CR has a non-Euclidean geometry, as places have their original distances although the topography is flattened. Predictions are daring.

18 minutes ago, Frustration said:

which is(to my knowledge) the earliest Cosmere work.

Yes. So can we say that between White Sand and The Final Empire we have more than a thousand years. Does Silverlight predate Rashek?

18 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They are scholars, not engineers, they study, they don't develop.

No scientific equipment? Better microscopes?

Let me give you arbitrary examples. You are studying the feruchemy of bendalloy. And of the areas you would be looking at is trace minerals. So now you need to determine the concentration of iodine, potassium, selenium and so on in urine. You are studuing feruchemical zinc. You should be able to do blood sugar measurements. And you really, really want an EEG. You are studying feruchemical iron. You really want a good gravimeter. I could fill many pages with such examples.
Nobody in Silverlight has had that idea? In hundreds of years?

37 minutes ago, robardin said:

So why assume the research they do leads to weaponry?

Independent development in three cases:

(Threnody, Taldain)

Spoiler

This has happened on three different worlds.

Scadrial went from arrows to cartridges in three hundred years.

37 minutes ago, robardin said:

But I do agree that Silverlight has not done "research for thousands of years" - that is different from having collected knowledge of events dating back thousands of years. For the latter, all you need is a trusted, verifiable source... Hoid? Frost? Some kind of Rashek-style plaque left behind by Adonalsium? ("If you are reading this, know that I have been Shattered...") We just don't know enough yet about this area.

So who discovered the creation of Scadrial and how?

37 minutes ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

Are you arguing that Krissalla should have know more physics?

Yes. In fact much more of everything.

 

[+Oltux72]

(May I trequest this to be moved to Cosmere Discussions? How?)

[+robardin]

1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

So who discovered the creation of Scadrial and how?

Unknown as of yet, but I always imagined the creation of Scadrial as happening soon after the Shattering - kind of like how Aona and Skai "partnered up" on Sel.

[Quantus]

34 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes, the strong assumption is that you would notice this elsewhere. The CR has a non-Euclidean geometry, as places have their original distances although the topography is flattened. Predictions are daring.

 We know that there are populations and commerce present in the Cognitive Realm, and we know that the distance between CR Scadrial and it's inhabited neighbors can be measured in steps.  Which means at some point a brand new border showed up right next to the other populated planets (in the time it took the Shards to make the planet and population, whatever that might have been).  Scadrial is the Expanse of Vapors, which is known to border both the Nexus of Imagination (Southern Rosharan Ocean), the Sea of Lost Lights (Eastern Rosharan Continent), and wherever that Ire outpost proves to be.  All three of those are known to have sentient populations, at least these days.  

It remains possible that there were not spren yet, we know Sapient spren came post-shattering, so if Preservation and Ruin went off and made Scadrial before some of the other Shards got settled into their new worlds, there might not have been much CR population yet, leaving Hoid and the Dragons as the only thing old enough to have been around to notice.  

Edited September 2, 2020 by Quantus

[+Oltux72]

38 minutes ago, Quantus said:

 We know that there are populations and commerce present in the Cognitive Realm, and we know that the distance between CR Scadrial and it's inhabited neighbors can be measured in steps.

Well, yes, but we cannot use conventional measuring techniques in the CR. That is, you cannot assume that any other distance would change if a new expanse arose out of nothing.

[Quantus]

9 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, yes, but we cannot use conventional measuring techniques in the CR. That is, you cannot assume that any other distance would change if a new expanse arose out of nothing.

I never said it moved or shifted anything preexisting, only that a whole planet's worth of new Realmic region definitely appeared in their backyard all of the sudden, which is something they are very likely to notice.

[+Oltux72]

1 minute ago, Quantus said:

I never said it moved or shifted anything preexisting, only that a whole planet's worth of new Realmic region definitely appeared in their backyard all of the sudden, which is something they are very likely to notice.

Sorry for the misinterpretation, but would they? How actually? How exactly do you have to walk in the right direction? Do people do pure research expeditions out of a planetary system into the unknown?

[Quantus]

11 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Sorry for the misinterpretation, but would they? How actually? How exactly do you have to walk in the right direction? Do people do pure research expeditions out of a planetary system into the unknown?

Are you asking how a new region can get inserted into a non-euclidean plane, or are you asking how the residents of the bordering area's would be able to spot the new region?

[+Oltux72]

5 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Are you asking how a new region can get inserted into a non-euclidean plane, or are you asking how the residents of the bordering area's would be able to spot the new region?

Actually I am asking why they would look out for a new region. I kind of doubt anybody would seriously consider a new planet with new people being created. A new region would have to be pretty obvious.

And the secondary question, even if you discovered it, how would you tell it is artificial? How do you get to the surface for research? Yes, there may be a perpendicularity, but you have the whole land surface of a planet to search through on the hope that it is there. So did other Shards tell them?

[Quantus]

5 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Actually I am asking why they would look out for a new region. I kind of doubt anybody would seriously consider a new planet with new people being created. A new region would have to be pretty obvious.

Given the "physical" proximity, my question leans more toward "How could they Miss it". I think we may just have to wait until we get a clearer view of one of the transition zones to clarify how large and/or visible they are to the nearby regions.  

5 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

And the secondary question, even if you discovered it, how would you tell it is artificial?

That is an entirely separate and very good question, I have no idea beyond the otherwise "impossible" nature/timeframe of it's arrival (just as if a fully populated continent appeared one day).  Logically "They" (as in whomever was around to observe it) would have to assume that was either newly created (and if they know of Adonalsium and/or the Shard they'd have reasonable suspects) or else pre-existing and was Moved there.  Assuming that would have any bearing on it's cognitive Connections, anyway.  

5 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

How do you get to the surface for research? Yes, there may be a perpendicularity, but you have the whole land surface of a planet to search through on the hope that it is there. So did other Shards tell them?

Im not sure what you are suggesting here? The nature of the CR ensures that any place that exists has a population thinking about it at minimum, and actively observing it to really develop it.  That makes the danger of arriving somewhere uninhabited pretty slim indeed.  Or are you imagining Physical Realm Space exploration?

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

No scientific equipment? Better microscopes?

Let me give you arbitrary examples. You are studying the feruchemy of bendalloy. And of the areas you would be looking at is trace minerals. So now you need to determine the concentration of iodine, potassium, selenium and so on in urine. You are studuing feruchemical zinc. You should be able to do blood sugar measurements. And you really, really want an EEG. You are studying feruchemical iron. You really want a good gravimeter. I could fill many pages with such examples.
Nobody in Silverlight has had that idea? In hundreds of years?

Yes so, scientists wanting to study atmospheric pressure, and cartographers wanting a better look at the world built the airplane.

Totally.

[+Oltux72]

53 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Given the "physical" proximity, my question leans more toward "How could they Miss it". I think we may just have to wait until we get a clearer view of one of the transition zones to clarify how large and/or visible they are to the nearby regions.

Kelsier walked for days. Still no sign of the next expanse.

53 minutes ago, Quantus said:

That is an entirely separate and very good question, I have no idea beyond the otherwise "impossible" nature/timeframe of it's arrival (just as if a fully populated continent appeared one day).  Logically "They" (as in whomever was around to observe it) would have to assume that was either newly created (and if they know of Adonalsium and/or the Shard they'd have reasonable suspects) or else pre-existing and was Moved there.  Assuming that would have any bearing on it's cognitive Connections, anyway.  

Or settled.

53 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Im not sure what you are suggesting here? The nature of the CR ensures that any place that exists has a population thinking about it at minimum, and actively observing it to really develop it.  That makes the danger of arriving somewhere uninhabited pretty slim indeed.  Or are you imagining Physical Realm Space exploration?

An expanse must have the surface area of a continent up to a good fraction of the size of a terrestial planet. A perpendicularity has the size of a large pond. How do you suppose to find it?
Somebody arrived at the Expanse of Vapors. Well, first task is to find something that actually floats on the Vapors. Then they have to explore a huge area. Worse, there is no wind in the CR. You literally cannot sail. You need to find a method of propulsion. And you have no maps.

26 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Yes so, scientists wanting to study atmospheric pressure, and cartographers wanting a better look at the world built the airplane.

Totally.

The first airships were built by people in their backyards.

[Frustration]

28 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The first airships were built by people in their backyards.

Please construct an MRI machine with household material for me.

My point was that very rarely are the people who made a device the people who need to use it, the blacksmith, not the knight made the sword, and so on.

The Wright brothers had no need for an airplane, but they made it.

When the steam engine was made it was ignored for about a thousand years.

I doubt that Silverlight has a large population of people with knowledge in engineering.

[Hoidolasium]

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

the blacksmith, not the knight made the sword, and so on.

This is a case of job specialization. As population increases along with food surplus, the amount of tasks that each individual needs to take care of decreases. Originally, blacksmiths would shod horses and make the shoes. However, they eventually had the opportunity to take on an apprentice who would shod the horses while the blacksmith forged. Over generations, those apprentices became more common, and the senior ones set up their own shops. A few picked up how to make horseshoes in a forge, but not much else. They opened their own shops, or shared a forge with a blacksmith, and became farriers. Tangent aside, the original invention is usually made by someone who will use it. The obvious exception is a scientist/inventor, but that role didn't really come about until the Industrial Revolution.

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Kelsier walked for days. Still no sign of the next expanse.

I recollected it being far less than that, my mistake. 

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Or settled.

An expanse must have the surface area of a continent up to a good fraction of the size of a terrestial planet. A perpendicularity has the size of a large pond. How do you suppose to find it?

Oh, ok I see where you are going with this.  That's a good question and I dont have a definitive answer to it, other than to assume/believe that the existence of world-hoppers at all implies that it's a surmountable challenge.  Given that the Perpendicularity are described as the equivalent of Gravity Wells, I would personally expect there to one or more technological solutions to that, some Investiture Compass/Sunstone/Starchart equivalent that would point to the nearest Perpendicularity.  Taldain Sand, for example, though I dont know what sort of range it would have.  

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Somebody arrived at the Expanse of Vapors. Well, first task is to find something that actually floats on the Vapors. Then they have to explore a huge area. Worse, there is no wind in the CR. You literally cannot sail. You need to find a method of propulsion. And you have no maps.

For what it's worth, anything that exists in the Cognitive Realm can probably be assumed to have some knowledge of and/or access to Investiture, since that's Food to the natives and is needed to make the trip for any Physical being.  Investiture is all you need for both those things, didnt Hoid use a local ghost and an invested Oar?

[Hoidolasium]

29 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I recollected it being far less than that, my mistake. 

He walked for weeks, it's just sort of glossed over since nothing at all happens.

30 minutes ago, Quantus said:

An expanse must have the surface area of a continent up to a good fraction of the size of a terrestrial planet. A perpendicularity has the size of a large pond. How do you suppose to find it?

A Perpendicualrity that was in an expanse would be a little odd, since it would be sitting space for some reason. Not impossible but we certainly haven't seen one doing that yet. Also, it would be pointless to use it since you would be ejected into the vaccum and die quickly and painfully.

[Quantus]

2 minutes ago, Hoidolasium said:

A Perpendicualrity that was in an expanse would be a little odd, since it would be sitting space for some reason. Not impossible but we certainly haven't seen one doing that yet. Also, it would be pointless to use it since you would be ejected into the vaccum and die quickly and painfully.

Huh?  The "Expanses" we are talking about are the Cognitive Realm regions of inhabited planets.  The "Expanse of Vapors" for example, is Scadrial. The physical realm "expanses of space" arent reflected much in the Cognitive realm, since nothing sapient lives there to observe and/or ponder it.  They technically exist, but are wildly compressed.