the_archduke

Thaidakar

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Circled several times on one page at the end of the list was the word “Thaidakar” with the note, He leads them. But who is he? The name seems a title, much like Mraize. But neither are in a language I know.

 

Thaidakar is a title in a language Ialai did not know.  With the same notes saying "Nalathis. Scadarial. Tal Dain."  As places that Ialai couldn't place.  What if Thaidakar is Scadrian for "Sovereign"?  Could Thaidakar be Kelsier?

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1 hour ago, the_archduke said:

What if Thaidakar is Scadrian for "Sovereign"?  Could Thaidakar be Kelsier?

I'm starting to think it was an unmitigated mistake to have Kelsier clinging on.

No, Thaidakar is not Kelsier. He can be his own mysterious figure without shoehorning him into whichever other books we want. If he is someone we know from elsewhere, my bet is going to be Yesteel. There are a couple of reasons why I expect to hear from Yesteel again in Stormlight, but no particular reason why he would be Thaidakar, or a Ghostblood.

However, we know Vasher and Vivenna are both on Roshar. We don't know how much time has passed since the Pahn Kahl rebellion, but we do know that Yesteel opposes Vasher, we know Vivenna is hunting Vasher and has an Awakened blade (Mk.II). We know Yesteel knows how to Awaken metal. I think Vivenna sought out and learned form Yesteel when Vasher refused to teach her, which is how she created her own blade.

Once again, absolutely no reason to think Yesteel is Thaidakar, but we know at least two other people form Naltis are on Roshar, and they're the two people who might have some beef with him, so it's at least plausible.

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Except there is a Scadrial connection to the Ghostbloods, because Iyatil is descended from the southern Scadrians.  Didn't Mraize also have a trophy of something allomantic or feruchemical? 

 

Is it tenuous, sure.  Is this theory likely, no.  Is it possible, absolutely.  Brandon called him Thaidakar, because if the name Kelsier had been used in the first prologue, way back in 2010...

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Kelseir is still stuck on scadrial.

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3 hours ago, the_archduke said:

Except there is a Scadrial connection to the Ghostbloods, because Iyatil is descended from the southern Scadrians.  Didn't Mraize also have a trophy of something allomantic or feruchemical? 

Mraize has trophies from basically every magic system we’ve seen. He’s got White Sand, an Aether, an Aviar, a snippet of royal locks, and who knows what else. I don’t think the trophies help narrow things down...

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3 hours ago, the_archduke said:

Except there is a Scadrial connection to the Ghostbloods, because Iyatil is descended from the southern Scadrians.  Didn't Mraize also have a trophy of something allomantic or feruchemical? 

 

Is it tenuous, sure.  Is this theory likely, no.  Is it possible, absolutely.  Brandon called him Thaidakar, because if the name Kelsier had been used in the first prologue, way back in 2010...

She's descended from southern Scadrians, but was born on Silverlight, and sought out and recruited into the Ghostbloods, so I wouldn't say there's a strong connection. The Ghostbloods are mainly just worldhoppers, with connections to many of the different planets in the Cosmere.

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5 hours ago, the_archduke said:

Thaidakar is a title in a language Ialai did not know.  With the same notes saying "Nalathis. Scadarial. Tal Dain."  As places that Ialai couldn't place.  What if Thaidakar is Scadrian for "Sovereign"?  Could Thaidakar be Kelsier?

That would make the Ghostbloods surprisingly young an organization. Kelsier died/transisitioned about 330 years before SA1. He surely spent quite some time basically stuck in Shadesmar of Scadrial. Then he saved the Southern Scadians. That does not leave all that much time to build up an organization active on several planets.

Ghosts make me think of Threnody in fact.

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I seriously hope it's not Kel. Iyatil is of Scadrian heritage but was born in Silverlight and was a member of the Seventeenth Shard before joining the Ghostbloods. Kelsier is stuck on Scadrial still. We don't actually know if Iyatil has ever been to Scadrial. 

There's a whole Cosmere for the ghostbloods to have originated from. 

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10 hours ago, Calderis said:

There's a whole Cosmere for the ghostbloods to have originated from. 

Is there? They are extremely interplanetary. It is very hard to see them develop on a world without ready access to the Cognitive Realm. It is also hard to see how they would develop on a world with extremely restrictive politics. Hence I would rule out

  • Sel - to hard to survive the CR
  • First of the Sun - perpendicularity to hard to get to and from
  • Scadrial - unless they are really old, how would they have survived TLR?
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1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Hence I would rule out

That leaves Roshar, Taldain, Nalthis, and Threnody as the major possibilities.  I personally think Threnody because of their name.

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They could have also started from Silverlight, and then recruited people from various planets. Although the population of Silverlight is small, practicallly everybody there is cosmere aware in a fairly detailed way.

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I think it's MUCH more likely that the Ghostbloods are native to the system. I feel like any reveal that their leadership is from another planet would overly complicate things for fans of just Stormlight. At this point, my best guess is that they are/were and an ancient group of Bondsmiths or maybe even the Ashyn equivalent that became Cosmere aware after becoming Cognitive Shadows. Fits with the name and their symbol (3 diamonds = 3 spren). Maybe not so much the ideology, but hey, who knows if the oaths are still intact after death.

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14 hours ago, Blightsong said:

I think it's MUCH more likely that the Ghostbloods are native to the system. I feel like any reveal that their leadership is from another planet would overly complicate things for fans of just Stormlight.

But their leadership, as far as we have seen it, does come from another planet (well indirectly) and uses alien languages. And keeps memorabilia from other worlds.

14 hours ago, Blightsong said:

 At this point, my best guess is that they are/were and an ancient group of Bondsmiths or maybe even the Ashyn equivalent that became Cosmere aware after becoming Cognitive Shadows. Fits with the name and their symbol (3 diamonds = 3 spren). Maybe not so much the ideology, but hey, who knows if the oaths are still intact after death.

If we had one set of foreign names, Ashyn would make sense. But we don't.

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On 9/2/2020 at 11:13 AM, Blightsong said:

I think it's MUCH more likely that the Ghostbloods are native to the system. I feel like any reveal that their leadership is from another planet would overly complicate things for fans of just Stormlight. At this point, my best guess is that they are/were and an ancient group of Bondsmiths or maybe even the Ashyn equivalent that became Cosmere aware after becoming Cognitive Shadows. Fits with the name and their symbol (3 diamonds = 3 spren). Maybe not so much the ideology, but hey, who knows if the oaths are still intact after death.

I agree with them being tied to Ashyn. We don’t know the process yet on how they made the trip but there had to be some Cosmere awareness for those who travelled. They were a whole people who I’m going to safely assume had a diverse culture. I’d doubt they were all just one group but multiple who made the jump. We know the Heralds became Heralds after coming to Roshar so a lot was going on at the time. I’d guess this time period is where they were established. 

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On 9/2/2020 at 0:13 PM, Blightsong said:

I feel like any reveal that their leadership is from another planet would overly complicate things for fans of just Stormlight

We know that senior members are from off world.  Also there is the set on scadrial.

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On 9/2/2020 at 9:13 AM, Blightsong said:

At this point, my best guess is that they are/were and an ancient group of Bondsmiths or maybe even the Ashyn equivalent that became Cosmere aware after becoming Cognitive Shadows.

So, somewhat like the Ire from Sel, a group of Invested individuals, living the Cognitive realm and doing who knows what? I could see it, yes. We know that humans came from Ashyn, and destroyed it. I doubt that was through what I would call conventional space travel (rocket goes boom), but rather through surges, which means through Shadesmar. 

My question, why Ghostbloods? Ire doesn't mean anything that I know of, and the Set is a name designed to be vague, but Seventeenth Shard makes sense (we are equal to the other 16 shards, but extra). Sons of Honor makes sense (restore Honor/Honor's children, return the Oathpact/Heralds). What the heck do ghosts, or blood, have to do with anything? If we're looking for meaning in their symbolism, we should at least question what they call themselves, too.

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2 hours ago, Karger said:

We know that senior members are from off world.  Also there is the set on scadrial.

And neither have any morals!

Here are some juicy tidbits:

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Have we seen Ghostbloods in action outside of the Rosharan system?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You have seen proto-Ghostbloods, but not after the their actual initiation.

Quote

chaplainchris

The Ghostbloods. Are they Kelsier's new crew?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, good question... Do I wanna answer this or not? *laughter* I'm gonna RAFO this one. Yeah, we're gonna RAFO this one. It is the RAFOlympics after all.

Billy Todd

Have there been interactions between Kelsier and the Ghostbloods?

Brandon Sanderson

I will RAFO that.

Quote

ccstat

If Kelsier (when Vin knew him) were to join one of the Rosharan secret societies, which one would he choose?

Brandon Sanderson

He would become part of the Ghostbloods, most likely, and would be in charge of them within a year.

Quote

ccstat

If Kelsier (when Vin knew him) were to join one of the Rosharan secret societies, which one would he choose?

Brandon Sanderson

He would become part of the Ghostbloods, most likely, and would be in charge of them within a year.

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Where have we seen proto-Ghostbloods?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

RAFO, but you guys are pretty close to figuring that out.

Quote

Questioner

Are the Ghostbloods affiliated with Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

"Affiliated with" is very wiggle-room-ish. And so I'll go ahead and give you a RAFO on that one, even though I can totally wiggle on this one. I'm just gonna say "RAFO"; I'm gonna do the ultimate wiggle. There have been dealings.

Billy Todd

Interactions?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there's been interactions.

Quote

wilde4fitness

Are the Ghostbloods associated with Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium has his fingers in a LOT of things.

Quote

Questioner

Is the Ghostblood's name related to their heritage?

Brandon Sanderson

Kind of.

Questioner

So it is not because of their blood *inaudible*.

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO that.

Quote

Dragon13

Have we seen any characters who is a part of multiple [secret] organizations, for example the Ghostbloods and the Sons of Honor?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes you have. *photo pause* I've a big cop out there, because you of know of one who is in the Ghostbloods and the Lightweavers. You give me opportunities, and I will answer truthfully.

Enjoy!

Edited by I Used To Be A Fish
Adding WoB's
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46 minutes ago, Rainier said:

My question, why Ghostbloods? Ire doesn't mean anything that I know of, and the Set is a name designed to be vague, but Seventeenth Shard makes sense (we are equal to the other 16 shards, but extra). Sons of Honor makes sense (restore Honor/Honor's children, return the Oathpact/Heralds). What the heck do ghosts, or blood, have to do with anything? If we're looking for meaning in their symbolism, we should at least question what they call themselves, too.

Maybe it's a translation of "cognitive shadow" from one language to another? Maybe their "initiation" is to become of the cognitive realm? Maybe the initiation process uses: 

Spoiler

Hemalurgic processes to attach the shadow to a planet-bound body dependent upon where they serve? (blood)

 

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1 hour ago, Rainier said:

My question, why Ghostbloods? Ire doesn't mean anything that I know of, and the Set is a name designed to be vague, but Seventeenth Shard makes sense (we are equal to the other 16 shards, but extra). Sons of Honor makes sense (restore Honor/Honor's children, return the Oathpact/Heralds). What the heck do ghosts, or blood, have to do with anything? If we're looking for meaning in their symbolism, we should at least question what they call themselves, too.

IRE does have a meaning it is the 

Spoiler

Aon for age.

 

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9 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

IRE does have a meaning

Makes sense, thank you. That reemphasizes that Ghostbloods must mean something, and we still don't really know what.

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3 hours ago, Rainier said:

So, somewhat like the Ire from Sel, a group of Invested individuals, living the Cognitive realm and doing who knows what? I could see it, yes. We know that humans came from Ashyn, and destroyed it. I doubt that was through what I would call conventional space travel (rocket goes boom), but rather through surges, which means through Shadesmar. 

My question, why Ghostbloods? Ire doesn't mean anything that I know of, and the Set is a name designed to be vague, but Seventeenth Shard makes sense (we are equal to the other 16 shards, but extra). Sons of Honor makes sense (restore Honor/Honor's children, return the Oathpact/Heralds). What the heck do ghosts, or blood, have to do with anything? If we're looking for meaning in their symbolism, we should at least question what they call themselves, too.

Cognitive Shadows are pretty much ghosts, that's why I suspect a group of them are involved. The Bondsmiths (or the Ashyn equivalent) are the other half of my guess because they are Connected to Honor's Perpendicularity and also have shown the power to Ascend (at least in Dalinar's case), both being ways we've seen used in universe to become a CS.

5 hours ago, Karger said:

We know that senior members are from off world.  Also there is the set on scadrial.

All true. We don't know how high ranking Iyatil is, but I think it's safe to assume at least moderately high. I guess it just doesnt feel well set up for me. Brandon has been very careful to not say anything about the origins of the Ghostbloods in book or in WoBs. If they were originally from off world I would have expected more hints towards that fact. Hints that casual readers would pick up on. Just like when he foreshadowed pretty heavily right away that whatever is influencing the Set is foreign to Scadrial.

But that's just me. A lot of what we've seen in Rhythm of War could be more solid foreshadowing toward that reveal so who knows.

Edited by Blightsong
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2 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

All true. We don't know how high ranking Iyatil is, but I think it's safe to assume at least moderately high. I guess it just doesnt feel well set up for me. Brandon has been very careful to not say anything about the origins of the Ghostbloods in book or in WoBs. If they were originally from off world I would have expected more hints towards that fact. Hints that casual readers would pick up on. Just like when he foreshadowed pretty heavily right away that whatever is influencing the Set is foreign to Scadrial.

Isn't it shown pretty clearly though?  The whole vault of easter eggs?  The Aviar?  The masked woman?  Comments like "not of the local species of human."

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11 minutes ago, Karger said:

Isn't it shown pretty clearly though?  The whole vault of easter eggs?  The Aviar?  The masked woman?  Comments like "not of the local species of human."

Only if you're a Cosmere aware 17th Sharder who knows what to look for. Those are pretty much easter eggs, like you said. Fans of only the Stormlight books would not pick that up, so those lines being important foreshadowing doesn't click for me. Especially since Brandon has said stuff like this since those Mraize scenes:

Quote

Fantasy Faction

Someone from Earth is about to be sent off to the cosmere. They've read your first Stormlight book, but they've never really taken time to really dig deep and find out about how it sits in the overall "cosmere", so they're totally unprepared. What basic concepts regarding shards, magic systems and world hopping do you think are most important?

Brandon Sanderson

The first, most important thing to say to the person who's being sent there is to enjoy the story you're in. All of the cosmere stuff, the interconnection between my books and all these wonderful little things, are right now mostly Easter eggs. Which means that if you spend the whole book only worried about that, you're going to miss the beauty and fun that is the book that you're part of. I often say to people, don't worry if you read them "out of order," because it's all Easter eggs right now. Don't worry and stress if you miss something about the cosmere, because while someday that might be important, you first need to enjoy the book that you're part of. But the primer I'd give to this person is that the worlds are connected. If you show up on a planet and there's a guy named Hoid around, then be very afraid, because you're someplace very dangerous.

Edited by Blightsong
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3 hours ago, Nathrangking said:

IRE does have a meaning it is the 

  Hide contents

Aon for age.

 

Or time.

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2 hours ago, Blightsong said:

Only if you're a Cosmere aware 17th Sharder who knows what to look for. Those are pretty much easter eggs, like you said. Fans of only the Stormlight books would not pick that up, so those lines being important foreshadowing doesn't click for me. Especially since Brandon has said stuff like this since those Mraize scenes:

But Brandon also wants the Cosmere to build up into an overarching crossover by the time of Mistborn era 4. Stormlight is the perfect place to start that and based on the books he's been building up to that. Heck, the prologue to RoW almost calls out Gavilar's attempts to Worldhop. We've even had references to Worldhopping that just a Stormlight fan would likely pick up in Oathbringer with Azure. She all but says she came to Roshar through the Cognitive from somewhere else. I simply think Brandon is building up little references until he's ready to full on bring up Worldhopping in Stormlight which I think will happen in Stormlight 5 with Gavilar's point of view in the prologue

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