Navani's Critic?

[Gilphon]

 

32 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

What makes you think that the reference is to all Honorspren rather than the renegades bonding Knights Radiant?

Because she's talked about going into Shadesmar and talking to spren there. 

[Jon]

2 hours ago, Jess said:

Aside from that, I will say that the speech pattern reminded me of, well, Pattern. A kind of innocent, childlike bluntness. So another possibility is a rogue Cryptic (bonus points that they tend not to get along with Honorspren).

Ya I very much was getting that vibe as well. I don't know about it being a Cryptic specifically, but a spren seems very likely to me. I'm leaning toward the sibling, though I have no idea how the gen would have gotten there.

[Jess]

36 minutes ago, Jon said:

Ya I very much was getting that vibe as well. I don't know about it being a Cryptic specifically, but a spren seems very likely to me. I'm leaning toward the sibling, though I have no idea how the gen would have gotten there.

While I was reading the chapter, this was the first idea that leapt to my mind. I still want it to be the Sibling. But after I thought about it a bit, the idea of a millenia-slumbering godspren reaching out to Navani via Rosharan fax machine seemed weird and unlikely compared to the various smaller-scale candidates.

But, I still wouldn't put it past Brandon!

Edited September 1, 2020 by Jess

[TMC29ZX]

When I read this, I instantly thought of a spren, but then the logistics of how a spren could sneak it into her flying "room" made me question it.

Not terribly sure about Navani's past, but her learning she had actually caused tons of pain to spren every time she made a fabrial might be the thing that "breaks"  her and allows her to bond a spren. If it ended up being the Sibling, I could see her oath's being something along the lines of "I will unite instead of divide spren" and "I will take responsibility for the pain I have caused and will work towards making it right by finding other solutions." 

 

[Master Silver]

So what we know from the conversation, is that this correspondent has some (maybe even a great deal) of knowledge about Navani's work. Which means they likely have access to the Tower. We also know that this correspondent is likely ancient and has access to Shadesmar. I say this because they say the Honor Spren can no longer be trusted. What did the Honor Spren do to lose that trust? The Recreance? Trying to conquer Shadesmar? Also, somehow they knew where Navani would be, and managed to get a gemstone in there so they could converse. For these reasons, I think it is the sibling. The sibling is showing Navani the same hostility that the Stormfather showed Dalinar. We know the Sibling and many spren were hurt by the betrayal of the Radiants and wanting to avoid the bond to protect one' self and fellow spren seems natural. Besides, the Sibling has to be introduced somehow, and healing/fixing the Tower for a year may have awoken the Sibling. Now Navani is very close to figuring out how to infuse the Tower with Stormlight and this will me a lot more trapped spren very likely.

[RazeU]

I think a Sleepless is the most likely as protecting and respecting spren seem a part of their function. But when I read Sja-anat in the options.... that’s an interesting idea! 

[LuckyJim]

I saw someone on reddit suggest it was Malata, which makes some sense to me. We know that her spren, Spark, already hates humans for all the true spren they killed at the Day of Recreance, maybe she also considers fabrial creation a form of slavery.

[Honorless]

The speech patterns don't match Venli, Taravangian, Malata or Sja-Anat, and as Navani said, which fabrial? None of the ones she uses capture sapient spren. On the Sea of Lost Lights map though, one of the notes says spren fishing is illegal there, which makes me think not all spren think the same regarding their non-sapient brethren. Iri joined Odium, I think some of the spren probably did the same as well and the speech patterns made me think of spren.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Honorless

[+Oltux72]

13 hours ago, Gilphon said:

Because she's talked about going into Shadesmar and talking to spren there. 

Spren, yes, Honorspren not ready to bond Radiants, how? Honorspren are rare in in most places of Shadesmar, to the point that they are an attraction people (spren) gather to watch. No oath gate is known to be located near a city of Honorspren.

5 hours ago, Honorless said:

The speech patterns don't match Venli, Taravangian, Malata or Sja-Anat, and as Navani said, which fabrial?

Nobody ever literally talked to Sja-Anat. She appeared in a magic mirror and sent a telepathic message by spren. That these arcane means reflect her actual speech is quite unlikely.

5 hours ago, Honorless said:

None of the ones she uses capture sapient spren. On the Sea of Lost Lights map though, one of the notes says spren fishing is illegal there, which makes me think not all spren think the same regarding their non-sapient brethren. Iri joined Odium, I think some of the spren probably did the same as well and the speech patterns made me think of spren.

Yes, but which spren

• is nice enough to send a warning first
• can get a gem stone into Navan's capsule
• would use a spanreed - why not just a letter

11 hours ago, LuckyJim said:

I saw someone on reddit suggest it was Malata, which makes some sense to me. We know that her spren, Spark, already hates humans for all the true spren they killed at the Day of Recreance, maybe she also considers fabrial creation a form of slavery.

Why the warning as opposed to poison in a drink or a knife in the back?

[Honorless]

13 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Nobody ever literally talked to Sja-Anat. She appeared in a magic mirror and sent a telepathic message by spren. That these arcane means reflect her actual speech is quite unlikely.

I'm pretty sure that they do reflect her actual speech given that both instances use similar lingo. She gave the impression that she was talking via the Corrupted spren in a similar fashion to the way one would talk over a telephone. As for what Shallan saw in the mirror, I'm pretty sure that's actually Sja-Anat and for some reason she manifests in reflections in the Physical Realm. What gave you the impression that it was a magic mirror?

Edited September 2, 2020 by Honorless

[+Child of Hodor]

5 hours ago, Honorless said:

I'm pretty sure that they do reflect her actual speech given that both instances use similar lingo. She gave the impression that she was talking via the Corrupted spren in a similar fashion to the way one would talk over a telephone. As for what Shallan saw in the mirror, I'm pretty sure that's actually Sja-Anat and for some reason she manifests in reflections in the Physical Realm. What gave you the impression that it was a magic mirror?

Yeah, she appeared in multiple mirrors in OB. It may be her thing or her theme. She appears in mirrors/reflections and she alters spren into a funhouse mirror version of themselves. 

Shallan saw her in a mirror (in the OB chapter "Within The Mirror" ) in a hallway when she was being carried through while pretending to be dead. Then she sees her in a mirror in the Oathgate chamber. 

[Potus]

I'm on team Sleepless. Easy for a hordling to sneak a ruby in. I also think that it will all depend on how the events of Dawnshard unfold. If the soulcasters were taken by force or snuck out then the tone of the message makes a lot of sense. If they were traded/given then that makes me less certain. 

[+Bliev]

As much as I love the spren--particularly the Sibling YAY!!!--idea, we still have no theories about how a spren could (a) operate a span reed/write and (b) place the gem in Navani's office without being spotted by the dozens of people and/or sapient spren on the ship. A sleepless could do this very very well. My Axies theory wouldn't work as well, unless he's got a spy on the inside to place the gem. 

I love the spren/human interaction possibilities here, but we have never seen a spren contact a human via span-reed or even letter or even that they can write. Remember that Lift can only interact with Wyndle in the physical realm (when he's not in shard blade mode) because of her uniqueness. The thought that a spren could manifest in the physical realm with enough corporeality to write? That's tough for me. Unless the other spanreed is in the cognitive realm...but even so. Women's script? There will need to be a lot of filling in the narrative blanks here for sure. 

[+Child of Hodor]

19 minutes ago, Bliev said:

As much as I love the spren--particularly the Sibling YAY!!!--idea, we still have no theories about how a spren could (a) operate a span reed/write and (b) place the gem in Navani's office without being spotted by the dozens of people and/or sapient spren on the ship.

I generally agree that spren as we've seen them would have a hard time using the spanreed on their own or planting it. I do have a theory that The Sibling is the "God of Mountains" from the horneater peaks origin story and that They can manipulate stone, perhaps including gemstones. 

Perhaps the Sibling can move a gem around. The other two Bondsmith spren can do special things Stormfather summoned or create a storm out of nowhere at the end of WoR, Nightwatcher alters people's spiritweb and maybe their cognitive aspects as well, Sibling might have some special things They can do. Perhaps involving Stone and Gems since They are closely linked with Urithiru working properly. 

Maybe there is no corresponding spanreed where someone is writing on the other end. Maybe the Sibling is just moving the corresponding half gemstone  or just moving that very gemstone Navani found. 

Edited September 3, 2020 by Child of Hodor

[+Bliev]

26 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Maybe there is no corresponding spanreed where someone is writing on the other end. Maybe the Sibling is just moving the corresponding half gemstone  or just moving that very gemstone Navani found. 

I think this is the most compelling theory I could get behind. That much like the Stormfather came to Dalinar in his dreams and the Nightwatcher holds court in the woods, the Sibling speaks via gemstone? OK. Now i'm listening *insert intrigued gif here*

[ZenBossanova]

It shouldn't be so hard for a  spren to move a gem. They are what move the spanreeds in the first place. 

That said, I am curious about the Sleepless and the possibility of a Herald gone Spren-rights Activist, as the culprit. 

 

[Dare Shadow]

Why i think that that was sibling.

1. One of the biggest advantage of bondsmith is communication. Daninar can communicate with any one through storm dreams. 

I believe that sibling can communicate through span read ans navanis Power will be growing fabrial ready gemstone

[Shadow Guardian]

Something that I have noticed is that the words of whoever is writing to Navani are mostly being taken at face value. There is someone or something that is strongly against the creation of fabrials/imprisonment of spren. While not unlikely, the more I think about it, the more this feels like something the diagram would do, not for any actual altruistic reason, but to plant that seed of doubt and to sew mistrust. Possibly as part of a larger plan to try to sabotage the humans in the fabrial "arms race" or for something else we don't quite see yet. 

[+Bliev]

5 hours ago, Shadow Guardian said:

Something that I have noticed is that the words of whoever is writing to Navani are mostly being taken at face value. There is someone or something that is strongly against the creation of fabrials/imprisonment of spren. While not unlikely, the more I think about it, the more this feels like something the diagram would do, not for any actual altruistic reason, but to plant that seed of doubt and to sew mistrust. Possibly as part of a larger plan to try to sabotage the humans in the fabrial "arms race" or for something else we don't quite see yet. 

This could be. Particularly if they follow this up with a public opinion push that fabrial tech is not only dangerous but morally wrong, and/or anti-religion (which is probably already strained with renowned atheist (and woman, gasp!) Jasnah on the throne).

[Karger]

19 hours ago, Dare Shadow said:

I believe that sibling can communicate through span read ans navanis Power will be growing fabrial ready gemstone

But who physically placed the gemstone?  Are you saying Navani grew it?  I think she would notice.

15 hours ago, Shadow Guardian said:

Something that I have noticed is that the words of whoever is writing to Navani are mostly being taken at face value. There is someone or something that is strongly against the creation of fabrials/imprisonment of spren. While not unlikely, the more I think about it, the more this feels like something the diagram would do, not for any actual altruistic reason, but to plant that seed of doubt and to sew mistrust. Possibly as part of a larger plan to try to sabotage the humans in the fabrial "arms race" or for something else we don't quite see yet. 

I would agree except the writer does not seem to understand humans very well.  The diagram would carefully calibrate their message.  This seems like a misguided idiot unless you think it is someone who does not think like a human would.

[Dare Shadow]

If it is involenterory then navani would not notice . Dalinar initially acted out the storm dreams without realising

Brandon generally give us a direction to think out the magic system and in one fluid motion he toss that out of the window to present another logical conclusion

So lets keep our eyes open for more clues

[LightReader]

 The person delivering the gemstone and the person writing on the other end of the spanreed do not necessarily have to be the same person. Perhaps the ruby was placed by a Sleepless working as an agent for someone else, such as the Sibling, the Nightwatcher, or one of the Heralds. It could also have been placed by a spy disguised as a servant who cleans the room for Navani. Lots of possibilities there, although I personally like the idea of a Sleepless working for the Sibling somehow.

[+Bzhydack]

38 minutes ago, LightReader said:

 The person delivering the gemstone and the person writing on the other end of the spanreed do not necessarily have to be the same person. Perhaps the ruby was placed by a Sleepless working as an agent for someone else, such as the Sibling, the Nightwatcher, or one of the Heralds. It could also have been placed by a spy disguised as a servant who cleans the room for Navani. Lots of possibilities there, although I personally like the idea of a Sleepless working for the Sibling somehow.

Im against Sibling being involed because:

1. Is "Slumbering"

2. Any spren whitch is against hurting other spren will not use spren-fueled device.

But I like concept of Herald and Sleepless cooperating. Sleepless were Radiants and Heralds allies during Desolations, so its very possible that Sleepless and Heralds know each other, unless some of them.

[gokucauthon]

Here goes a crazy one, Kriss.  She has an undercover ardent who could place the gem.  She finally decided to start to doing something instead of sitting back and taking notes.  Crazy handwriting is from writing fast and it not being her native language.  But really I think its the sibling with help from who knows getting pissed that Navani is about to mess up its slumber and awaken it.  Eventually leading to their bonding.  

[Chana]

While I think Sleepless make the most sense I would be very surprised that they will be introduced as such a big plot point this early on... I guess it depends on what happens in Dawnshard novella and how much Sleepless are involved there but still seems strange. Axies makes sense but idk what his introduction to the general plot would bring to the table. For the plot itself it would make the most sense to be a spren/Sibling but idk how would that happen. Maybe a Radiant who bonded a spren that's very against fabrials?