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RoW Chapter 9 Discussion


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4 hours ago, Soby said:

I admit, I can empathize for Kal, but honestly, his arc with his mental state (trauma, etc.) is getting repetitive. There’s not really much growth.

Kal is still in the middle of his character arc in the overarching narrative. He has seen some growth, but still has much growing to do. Doing so will still take him on some highs, and some lows in his mental state. The point of telling the story is to take us on his journey as he works through it. There is growth, and there is growth potential. Kaladin still has plenty. It's valid to say that you are tired of reading his arc, or that it is taking too long for your tastes, but it is not valid (imo) to say there is not much growth potential left for him. I think you would need to present a stronger argument here

4 hours ago, Soby said:

if Kal stays on this path, I honestly could see a surprise coming like the death of Kaladin that would shock everyone

Kaladin is not the "surprise tragic death" that awaits us. That is reserved for another character. I'll give you a hint: he's the character that actually does not currently have any growth or growth potential, nor any agency in what happens to him in the story. He also likes to peruse fashion folios to cope with 2/3rds of his wife not being that into him.

4 hours ago, Soby said:

Overall, he may be my favorite character, but I could also see his arc coming to a close if all that’s left of his story is ups-and-downs until he finally gets past whatever is clogging his mind to progress to the next ideal, over and over and over.

It is called clinical depression. He was born with it, and it will be with him for his entire life. A constant disorder he will have to learn to live with and manage, once he understands it better. He unfortunately doesn't live in a world where clinicians, therapists, and prescription drugs to help him correct chemical imbalances exist. Welcome to the life of those people afflicted with it, I'm sure the ever cyclical nature is very tedious to them as well.

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On 9/1/2020 at 10:08 AM, Elena said:

While it's a big step for Shallan to feel like she can be herself (all of herself!) around Adolin and not have to hide in that sense, I can also appreciate how gruelling that must be on Adolin. If he's ever spooked by the situation, who does he have to turn to? Who can he go to if he needs to vent a bit? It's not his secret to share. Adolin tries to be Shallan's support system and she accepts her as such in part and that's good for them, but Adolin has no support system of his own when it comes to this issue.

Couldn’t agree more. We haven’t read of Adolin having anyone close to him except maybe Renarin. I wonder how lonely he feels bc being married, everything Shallan experiences, he does to, in his was. I hope he’s getting support somewhere too.

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5 hours ago, Soby said:

1. Someone in the thread mentioned their tiredness of Kaladin’s dreariness. I admit, I can empathize for Kal, but honestly, his arc with his mental state (trauma, etc.) is getting repetitive. There’s not really much growth. Brandon is a fan of GRRM, and if Kal stays on this path, I honestly could see a surprise coming like the death of Kaladin that would shock everyone. I love Kal. Overall, he may be my favorite character, but I could also see his arc coming to a close if all that’s left of his story is ups-and-downs until he finally gets past whatever is clogging his mind to progress to the next ideal, over and over and over. I almost could see him sacrificing himself in someway to protect others. 

I think Brandon just made a personal commitment to accurately illustrate what living with recurrent depression tends to really be like.  In most other media the depressed character would have some dramatic revelation or "cry it out" moment and then suddenly depression is fixed forever.  Narratively that makes sense, struggle leading to triumph with constant progress towards the goal is generally what readers find easiest to enjoy reading.  That's not really accurate for mental health burdens though, and also is kind of disheartening for readers who themselves have to grapple with a frequently lifelong burden (it's not hopeless, you can get better at managing it, but it's still often a lifelong struggle).

I actually think this is one of the main reasons behind the several month timeskip before this book.  Depressive episodes do tend to last several months, but reading those months of Kaladin being in dreary funk would be miserable.  I think RoW is cutting to the end of Kaladin's month long depressed cycle, and now that he's "bottomed out", he can start getting back to normal and hopefully learning to take care of himself better in future bouts.

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2 hours ago, Jeffo said:

interesting that the planet names were spelled out like she had been listening in to someone say them rather than seeing them written down?

Yes.  Rosharans are used to symmetrical names.  This is one of the few things we are certain of from the chapter. 

2 hours ago, Jeffo said:

Getting closer to full Cosmere awareness!

Exiting!

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4 hours ago, Tamara said:

We haven’t read of Adolin having anyone close to him except maybe Renarin. I wonder how lonely he feels bc being married, everything Shallan experiences, he does to, in his was. I hope he’s getting support somewhere too.

Adolin has been shown to have many casual acquaintances and very few close friends. I think that's part of why Adolin was so friendly to Kaladin relatively early in their acquaintance, and I guess he's someone Adolin can turn to... for nearly anything except to talk about Shallan.

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On 9/1/2020 at 11:44 AM, DeployParachute said:

Yes, several, but I don't really want to derail this thread as I've been known to do, so I'll try to send you a more detailed message at length when I have more time. I'll just say this for now:


I am not unhappy with their interactions as it is written now, per se. I am a big fan of all phases of love, and appreciate them for what they are and the role they play in the maturing of any relationship. I would in fact enjoy reading their "honeymoon" like stage a lot if it weren't for one thing: how we got here. What bothered me then, and continues to bother me now is how the build up to their marriage was written, and it's complete lacking of any kind of drama, tension, conflict, as well as its inclusion of another character that ultimately served no purpose for any of these things. Of course one could make the argument that they had this, it just took place at the very end of the book. However, I disagree with this argument, and have detailed it numerous times on this forum, and will do so again later in a more appropriate discussion form.

Welcome to how most arranged marriages go... And this is basically how most relationships in my community work. We date for a brief period, and marry soon after. The drama comes AFTER Shanah Rishon. (The first year.) Admittedly, most of us are parents by then...

 

So I found the romance very relatable, because it wasn’t especially romantic. It was two people, with mutually compatible goals, who liked each other. That’s more than enough for marriage. I expect lots of drama now that Shanah Bet has begun...

 

The Kal thing was stupid, though.

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I'm reading a lot of talk about who is the "real" Shallan and about the differences on how her different "personalities" came to be. IMO Shallan Davar, as a human being, likes to study philosophy and natural sciences; always has a witty comeback for everyone and is an incredibly talented artist. At the same time she has the capacity and determination to meet a con mistress, become her pupil and end up infiltrating her secret organization(after killing her?) and she's got the skill to quickly learn from a talented duelist how to fight with a sword and at the same time be the model people looking up to her expect her to be. All of this is in the core of who Shallan Davar is, unfortunately Shallan Davar went through overwhelming experiences and traumatic events during her childhood, causing her to present a loss of identity manifesting in the form of different personality states, loss of time and self. Because of this I don't think we can look at it like an "original Shallan"(childhood Shallan) created "witty Shallan"(the one that appears to be the "host" personality) to cope with her childhood distress and then created "Veil" and "Radiant" because she needed someone to be sneaky and someone to be a knight. Those are all real aspects of her personality that she felt didn't made sense for her to have because of the trauma she had been through or abilities that she  considered she wasn't capable of learning. So when it comes to asking wich personality state is more real, well, they all are and the "real Shallan" is a combination or a coexistence of all those different traits and abilities.

Some people are also pointing out that while "witty likes-to-draw Shallan" came to be over time and shares the same, or pretty much the same, back story as "original Shallan"; "Veil" and "Radiant" came to be more abruptly, when an specific set of skills was necessary and have somehow different back stories. They are using this as an argument to make a distinction between them and the Shallan we are presentes at the beginning of the books as if for this reason "Veil" and "Radiant" were "less real". There is a distinction, but it doesn't change the fact that all the "personalities" we know from Shallan are personality states adding up to make Shallan. Simply, while "lightweaving good-at-arguments" Shallan feels more like an ego state (similar behaviors and experiencies as the "original" state), "Veil" and "Radiant" are more similar to alters(separate autobiographical memory and independent initiative). Having "personalities" of both types just makes Shallan's portayal of DID more realistic. I, for one, I'm pretty excited to know how the complexities of this charachter will come to be as she progresses troughout the story.

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It may be a sleepless thats trying to contact Navani but in the same note it doesn't really seem like there style,I know we have seen very little from them but it seems more likely that one would meet her face to face...or cremling to face at least. I would think that they would use scare tactics beyond simple threats or at least disguise themselves to talk to Navani. Could even be that there is one amongst Dalinars men and its watching Navani, could be the agent providing info to Iali 

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It seems like only a Spren, Herald or Aimian (both types) would have both the knowledge of which ancient fabrials were really dangerous and the motivation to try to stop it. 

Spren

One that's been around a long time would know about Fabrials since they are used to power Fabrials. The words seem like those of a spren and closely reflect the Stormfather's views on fabrials which is probably how other spren view fabrials. Obviously, it can't be one of the dumber spren (sorry to any dumb spren reading this). If these are a Spren's words they almost have to have an agent in the physical realm placing the spanreed gem and writing for them. 

It would be cool if this was the Sibling who had recently awoken and is bonding Navani, but has concerns. I don't see that as likely. 

Herald

We've seen Ishar and Nale be concerned over how humans are using magic. But they handled it differently. Nale went around killing people who he saw as dabbling in dangerous magic. Ishar told him to do it and in general Ishar seems to yell at people more directly. He screams at the Stormfather during storms and he yelled at Dalinar over official spanreed as Tezim. Not his style to plant a secret gem. There's a bunch of Heralds that who are unaccounted for in the present, but we don't know much at all about them. 

Aimians

Aimia is where they found the cache of fabrials recently which helped spur the recent innovations. Aimia was the center of fabrial and soulcaster tech before it was scoured. Both types of Aimians live a long, long time so any living Aimian was probably around when Aimia was creating all kinds of fabrials and would know about them. 

We've seen the Sleepless guard Aimia or at least it's capital very closely. But, like with the Heralds, they kill people if they get too close. Although, the Sleepless who kills Kaza and her companions in OB did mention multiple warnings that were given prior to the poisoning. 

The Sleepless also watch Dalinar closely. According to the Brandon, they are the ones that write the back cover descriptions describing who they watch. They may be hesitant to murder the wife of someone they see as a very important person. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Sleepless#Trivia

 

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8 hours ago, Shardsplinter said:

I'm reading a lot of talk about who is the "real" Shallan and about the differences on how her different "personalities" came to be. IMO Shallan Davar, as a human being, likes to study philosophy and natural sciences; always has a witty comeback for everyone and is an incredibly talented artist. At the same time she has the capacity and determination to meet a con mistress, become her pupil and end up infiltrating her secret organization(after killing her?) and she's got the skill to quickly learn from a talented duelist how to fight with a sword and at the same time be the model people looking up to her expect her to be. All of this is in the core of who Shallan Davar is, unfortunately Shallan Davar went through overwhelming experiences and traumatic events during her childhood, causing her to present a loss of identity manifesting in the form of different personality states, loss of time and self. Because of this I don't think we can look at it like an "original Shallan"(childhood Shallan) created "witty Shallan"(the one that appears to be the "host" personality) to cope with her childhood distress and then created "Veil" and "Radiant" because she needed someone to be sneaky and someone to be a knight. Those are all real aspects of her personality that she felt didn't made sense for her to have because of the trauma she had been through or abilities that she  considered she wasn't capable of learning. So when it comes to asking wich personality state is more real, well, they all are and the "real Shallan" is a combination or a coexistence of all those different traits and abilities.

Some people are also pointing out that while "witty likes-to-draw Shallan" came to be over time and shares the same, or pretty much the same, back story as "original Shallan"; "Veil" and "Radiant" came to be more abruptly, when an specific set of skills was necessary and have somehow different back stories. They are using this as an argument to make a distinction between them and the Shallan we are presentes at the beginning of the books as if for this reason "Veil" and "Radiant" were "less real". There is a distinction, but it doesn't change the fact that all the "personalities" we know from Shallan are personality states adding up to make Shallan. Simply, while "lightweaving good-at-arguments" Shallan feels more like an ego state (similar behaviors and experiencies as the "original" state), "Veil" and "Radiant" are more similar to alters(separate autobiographical memory and independent initiative). Having "personalities" of both types just makes Shallan's portayal of DID more realistic. I, for one, I'm pretty excited to know how the complexities of this charachter will come to be as she progresses troughout the story.

this scene in word of radiance is part of what supports the theory that "shallan" is a persona and shows dissociation occuring even then:

 

Words of radiance page 268 (sorry for the formatting, doing so on the phone)

The silk of Shallan’s new dress was softer than any she had owned before. It touched her skin like a comforting breeze. The left cuff clipped closed over the hand; she was old enough now to cover her safehand. She had once dreamed of wearing a woman’s dress. Her mother and she . . . Her mother . . . Shallan’s mind went still. Like a candle suddenly snuffed, she stopped thinking. She leaned back in her chair, legs tucked up underneath her, hands in her lap. The dreary stone dining chamber bustled with activity as Davar Manor prepared for guests. Shallan did not know which guests, only that her father wanted the place immaculate. Not that she could do anything to help. Two maids bustled past. “She saw,” one whispered softly to the other, a new woman. “Poor thing was in the room when it happened. Hasn’t spoken a word in five months. The master killed his own wife and her lover, but don’t let it . . .” They continued talking, but Shallan didn’t hear. She kept her hands in her lap. Her dress’s vibrant blue was the only real color in the room. She sat on the dais, beside the high table. A half-dozen maids in brown, wearing gloves on their safehands, scrubbed the floor and polished the furniture. Parshmen carted in a few more tables. A maid threw open the windows, letting in damp fresh air from the recent highstorm. Shallan caught mention of her name again. The maids apparently thought that because she didn’t speak, she didn’t hear either. At times, she wondered if she was invisible. Perhaps she wasn’t real. That would be nice. . . . The door to the hall slammed open, and Nan Helaran entered. Tall, muscular, square-chinned. Her oldest brother was a man. The rest of them . . . they were children. Even Tet Balat, who had reached the age of adulthood. Helaran scanned the chamber, perhaps looking for their father. Then he approached Shallan, a small bundle under his arm. The maids made way with alacrity. “Hello, Shallan,” Helaran said, squatting down beside her chair. “Here to supervise?” It was a place to be. Father did not like her being where she could not be watched. He worried. “I brought you something,” Helaran said, unwrapping his bundle. “I ordered it for you in Northgrip, and the merchant only just passed by.” He took out a leather satchel. Shallan took it hesitantly. Helaran’s grin was so wide, it practically glowed. It was hard to frown in a room where he was smiling. When he was around, she could almost pretend . . . Almost pretend . . . Her mind went blank. “Shallan?” he asked, nudging her. She undid the satchel. Inside was a sheaf of drawing paper, the thick kind—the expensive kind—and a set of charcoal pencils. She raised her covered safehand to her lips. “I’ve missed your drawings,” Helaran said. “I think you could be very good, Shallan. You should practice more.” She ran the fingers of her right hand across the paper, then picked up a pencil. She started to sketch. It had been too long. “I need you to come back, Shallan,” Helaran said softly. She hunched over, pencil scratching on paper. “Shallan?” No words. Just drawing. “I’m going to be away a lot in the next few years,” Helaran said. “I need you to watch the others for me. I’m worried about Balat. I gave him a new axehound pup, and he . . . wasn’t kind to it. You need to be strong, Shallan. For them.” The maids had grown quiet since Helaran’s arrival. Lethargic vines curled down outside the window nearby. Shallan’s pencil continued to move. As if she weren’t doing the drawing; as if it were coming up out of the page, the charcoal seeping out of the texture. Like blood. Helaran sighed, standing. Then he saw what she was drawing. Bodies, facedown, on the floor with— He grabbed the paper and crumpled it. Shallan started, pulling back, fingers shaking as she clutched the pencil. “Draw plants,” Helaran said, “and animals. Safe things, Shallan. Don’t dwell on what happened.”

 

 

In this scene we see Helaran tell shallan to:

1. Get better at drawing 

2. Draw nice things like plants and animals

3. Look out for her brothers

4. Be strong for her brothers

5. Not dwell on what happened

 

All of that defines pretty strongly shallan and her motivations all through way of kings and words of radiance. The scene does mimic the creation of the other alters. There was a need to be filled by an external actor (veil due to mraize and the ghostbloods, radiant due to practicing with a shardblade with Adolin). Just in this case it was Helaran leaving.

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11 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Welcome to how most arranged marriages go... And this is basically how most relationships in my community work. We date for a brief period, and marry soon after. The drama comes AFTER Shanah Rishon. (The first year.) Admittedly, most of us are parents by then...

So I found the romance very relatable, because it wasn’t especially romantic. It was two people, with mutually compatible goals, who liked each other. That’s more than enough for marriage. I expect lots of drama now that Shanah Bet has begun...

So here is the thing about drama, as it pertains to the real world, versus a world of fiction. When you are writing fiction, whether it be for movies, television, novels, graphic novels, short stories, whatever: the writer has to create the drama. The writer is not creating this drama for the characters in the story, they are creating this drama for you, the reader. The drama has to be present for you while consuming the media. Yes, the characters themselves have to feel like they are experiencing the drama, but the purpose of the entertainment media is to bring that drama to you, and to wrap you up with it so you can feel engaged with it, and get satisfaction from it.

The way you create drama in fiction is by creating stakes for whatever conflict is being presented. When you are dealing with relationship drama specifically, much of the stakes are boiled down to: will they or won't they. Will they or won't they get together, will they or won't they get married, will they or won't they work through their issues and choose to stay together. The drama comes into play by us, the readers, not knowing or not able to surmise easily what the end state of the drama is going to be. If I'm reading a scene about a couple, where one partner is saying to the other "I don't think I can do this anymore, I just don't know how to deal with this...", that scene carries more weight if I believe there is a strong reasonable chance that they don't stay together, that they don't make it work. That it ends in their personal failure, or personal decisions to end it. If I know, or can at least surmise what the "end state" of the drama is going to be, then my enjoyment of the media is going to be lessened. This is why the concept of "spoilers" exists, because it applies everywhere in consumption of entertainment media, and to all kinds of drama, not just relationship drama.

In the case of let's say, a young newly married Jewish couple in the real world, the drama is present for those involved: the couple, the immediate family members, the community that supports them. They are actually living it, and know the stakes involved: the marriage could fail. It could become so bad, so toxic (Navani/Gavilar) that one or both parties decide to walk away. Granted, in some communities, the social/moral/legal pressures may make such a thing more difficult, or downright impossible, however the possibility, however remote, still exists because it is the real world, and anything could happen. And more importantly, there are no "reader" expectations to be met in the real world.

So now we come back to the SA, and Brandon's current challenge with selling the drama that is Shadolin: how does he create appropriate drama for this couple based on what he has laid out to date? Well, he has to give us believable scenarios for success, and for failure. The possibility of failure, in this case, must come from the Shadolin themselves, not from external forces. From here on, we are now delving into more of my own personal opinions in struggling to understand some of the baffling writing choices that Brandon has made for this romance. I am placing it in spoiler tags because I believe that the content has a very high chance of ruining the dramatic experience for anyone who happens to take what I say seriously. There is also a strong chance that a moderator may suggest I create this as its own topic elsewhere. Also, @Karger this gets into more detail in continuing to answer your question from earlier.

Seriously, don't open this if you don't like these kinds of discussions, or do not want any chance (however remote) of ruining surprises or twists through the act of analyzing story structure

Spoiler

 

First let's look the possible scenarios for this couple for the duration of the series:

Relationship continues for the duration

  • Happily Ever After: Shallan and Adolin work through their problems to the point where they can maintain a healthy and stable relationship that is meaningful and beneficial to both, and leave the reader feeling confident that they can tackle future challenges
  • Miserably Committed: Shallan and Adolin are unable to work through their problems (or ignore them completely), but both decide to stick it out because social/familial/legal pressures are too great for them to overcome, and one or both are still miserable by story conclusion

Relationship ends before the series

  • Amicable Split: One or both parties decide to end the marriage
  • Gavilar/Navani: One or both parties die before they work out their problems
  • Needlessly tragic: One or both parties die after they work out their problems

All of these are possibilities, but are they really all on the table for the narrative? Our enjoyment of any kind of drama for this couple is tied up in not knowing which one we will land on. However, we can make some surmises on which ones are our likely success/fail scenarios, based on expectations that Brandon has set up in his readers, character arcs that are still in progress that are related to the main narrative, and Brandon's own personal writing style, preferences, expierences, and bias. (Hope you like run-on sentences, because I'm not editing that...)

Ruled Out 

  • Miserably Committed: Most readers expect that Shadolin are going to at least try to work through their stuff, however it would not be in keeping with the kind of story that Brandon is laying out to detail this struggle, but not have us see any resulting character change. I believe Brandon would find this to be narratively unfulfilling for us. Commenting on the hopelessness of feeling stuck in a marriage you are unhappy with and cannot escape can be a very powerful story to tell. But this is not that kind of story. I personally rule this out
  • Amicable Split: This option depends upon having an in world mechanism for both parties to leave the marriage of their own accord. Currently, I know of nothing that indicates that Vorinism has a concept like divorce. I also think that the author's own strongly held convictions and biases eliminates this as a possibility for an MC in his novels. Perhaps a lesser character, but not his MCs. I could be wrong, and perhaps I even hope I am wrong. But for now, I've personally ruled this out.
  • Needlessly Tragic: This option may have them addressing their problems successfully, but with Amicable Split and Miserably Committed off the table (in my mind), the drama then won't come from the process of working through the issues, because the stakes are not there. Instead, the drama will come as a result of an external actor (death) after all that has taken place. End state for the relationship is still "problems overcome", and I will have known that that was where we were heading anyway. Why would I feel the dramatic tension here, and what would be the point of this journey for me. The death after this is just a twist, likely for tragic effect, and played no part to generate concern within me on whether they would or would not successfully deal with their issues. I don't think Brandon would do this, as it has a very high likelihood of being unsatisfying to many readers. I personally rule this out.

What remains

So now that I personally have ruled out several of these options, based on what I believe to be sound reasoning, what am I left with? Happily Ever After, or Gavilar/Navani. This is my problem. Both scenarios remain very likely, but they cannot create the stakes needed for dramatic enjoyment and fulfillment. I can only truly enjoy the fruit of the "together forever" scenario if I know that there was a real chance of the opposite happening. The only "not together" scenario still on the table, a "failure" scenario that needs to be present in order to balance the drama inducing stakes equation, is the one where someone dies. And death is not a consequence of either characters personal inability to overcome or work through relationship issues. The characters have no agency in that. It just ends. And yes, that's how it is sometimes in the real world, but you are less able to get away with something like that as a writer. Do this too much, and your readers are not going to leave the story feeling satisfied. At least I can say this particular reader won't.

This has been my struggle since the conclusion of OB. For 3 years, I have been unable to find a believable "success/fail" scenario pairing that will give me the needed stakes, and thus dramatic tension that will make reading Shadolin personally fulfilling. It just simply isn't there for me. Before you say it: of course a large part of this can be attributed to me being overly presumptive about what Brandon will or won't do. But I have reasoned the way I have reasoned, and I feel the way that I do. I do not believe there is any credible "relationship ending" scenario left for Shadolin that doesn't involve death, and that completely removes any chance I'll get enjoyment from reading about their struggles. The time for Brandon to capitalize on the "will they won't they" relationship drama was before they "tied the knot". Now that they are married, I know they'll make it through no matter what...or die trying.

 

 

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Something small I noticed - Scadrial, Nalthis and Taldain are mentioned in this chapter. 

We know in Shadesmar the Expanse of the Densities (Sel), Expanse of Vibrance (Nalthis), Expanse of the Vapours (Scadrial) and the Expanse of the Broken Sky, which I believe has not been confirmed.

I believe this chapter confirms the popular theory that the Expanse of the Broken Sky is Taldain, as all of these Expanses neighbour Roshar's Cognitive Realm and would be the easiest to get to (except Sel because of the dead Shards present).

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12 minutes ago, DracostarA said:

Something small I noticed - Scadrial, Nalthis and Taldain are mentioned in this chapter. 

We know in Shadesmar the Expanse of the Densities (Sel), Expanse of Vibrance (Nalthis), Expanse of the Vapours (Scadrial) and the Expanse of the Broken Sky, which I believe has not been confirmed.

I believe this chapter confirms the popular theory that the Expanse of the Broken Sky is Taldain, as all of these Expanses neighbour Roshar's Cognitive Realm and would be the easiest to get to (except Sel because of the dead Shards present).

Ok,im not too familiar with the cognitive realm mapping,but just based on the name "Expanse of the Broken Sky",could it not be Threnodite system because ( and this is a very wild hunch) Odium's and Ambition battled occured in the space between the planets where chunks of her were ripped off.

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22 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I think Brandon just made a personal commitment to accurately illustrate what living with recurrent depression tends to really be like.  In most other media the depressed character would have some dramatic revelation or "cry it out" moment and then suddenly depression is fixed forever.  Narratively that makes sense, struggle leading to triumph with constant progress towards the goal is generally what readers find easiest to enjoy reading.  That's not really accurate for mental health burdens though, and also is kind of disheartening for readers who themselves have to grapple with a frequently lifelong burden (it's not hopeless, you can get better at managing it, but it's still often a lifelong struggle).

I actually think this is one of the main reasons behind the several month timeskip before this book.  Depressive episodes do tend to last several months, but reading those months of Kaladin being in dreary funk would be miserable.  I think RoW is cutting to the end of Kaladin's month long depressed cycle, and now that he's "bottomed out", he can start getting back to normal and hopefully learning to take care of himself better in future bouts.

I understand that he’s clinically depressed. I have 2 immediate family Members with clinical depression. My issue isn’t that he is depressed, and my point isn’t that he should get over his depression—I know it’s life-long. My point is that it seems like it’s becoming the primary literary device that moves Kal’s story along. I love the realism that Brandon captures in regards to human psychology—especially in regards to human suffering. All I’m saying is that it seems like Kal’s story is primarily just ups-and-downs until he has some breakthrough that progresses him to the next ideal at this point...my issue isn’t the depression—it’s the device being used to shape his character at this point...and I don’t even really have that big of an issue with it. I’m just saying, I wouldn’t be shocked if Brandon pulled a GRRM and killed off a primary character like GRRM killed off Ned Stark—the protagonist of ASOIAF book 1...

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Yeah, over time, I don't like this chapter. More neurotic behaviour by Shallan and Kaladin.

Gone are the days when Shallan sketched and Kaladin trained.

It would be interesting to see from a story perspective how they break out of the funk.

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1 hour ago, Soby said:

All I’m saying is that it seems like Kal’s story is primarily just ups-and-downs until he has some breakthrough that progresses him to the next ideal at this point...my issue isn’t the depression—it’s the device being used to shape his character at this point...and I don’t even really have that big of an issue with it

That's actually a pretty solid point. As much as I rag on Adolin's character for not having much narrative arc, or developed depth, he at least has hobbies, interests, things that he enjoys doing for the sake of doing them. Kaladin, by comparison, seems to be at risk of becoming one note. I've noticed this myself, that Kaladin's depression as of late (over OB and now into the beginning of RoW) seems like it is becoming his singular defining character trait. Hopefully, with his expected break from the battlefield and into daily life in Urithiru, we'll get a chance to pull back from that a bit, explore what Kaladin chooses to do with his time when he is not running from slavery, fighting to protect people, or leading others on a battlefield. Though, with major depressive episodes, one could find it extremely difficult to feel motivated to do much of anything, even things they may have used to enjoy. We'll have to see, I'm actually more excited about that aspect of this book than battles at this point.

Related sidenote: I was always sad that Brandon never really did anything with the flute that Hoid gifted Kaladin in WoK. I thought it would have been a nice addition to his character to have something to fiddle with, to play and experiment with, learn from and derive some pleasure. Would have been a good way to demonstrate some of his innate intelligence that we're always told he has but rarely see. I even asked Brandon about it at a signing long ago, but alas it wasn't meant to be.

1 hour ago, Soby said:

I wouldn’t be shocked if Brandon pulled a GRRM and killed off a primary character like GRRM killed off Ned Stark—the protagonist of ASOIAF book 1...

Yeah, but Ned's death served a very big narrative purpose: it kicked off the War of the Five Kings, the events of which serve as the basis for the rest of the main narrative. He also wasn't in the middle of a character arc (a personal journey of internal change). In ASoIaF, you also have many more main viewpoint protagonists in that first book: Jon, Arya, Dany, Sansa, Tyrion, Caitlyn, etc etc. SA has 3: Dalinar, Kaladin, Shallan. Easier to maintain the integrity of your narrative when you are axing 1/7 of your MC's vs 1/3rd. For Brandon to utilize Kaladin in a similar fashion, the impact to the main SA narrative will also need to be of similar scale, and Kaladin will need to have any lingering internal character arcs wrapped up, imo. (Fleet's story in WoR is probably the strongest available foreshadowing of Kaladin's death available, so you have that going for your argument).

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I'm not sure if this is the right place to say this, but I wanted to just let the Rhythm of Previews folks know how much I've been enjoying their YouTube coverage of these chapters. Really good job!

After reading the forums on Tues and Wed. I am eager for their take on Thurs. Thank you!

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6 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

So here is the thing about drama, as it pertains to the real world, versus a world of fiction. When you are writing fiction, whether it be for movies, television, novels, graphic novels, short stories, whatever: the writer has to create the drama. The writer is not creating this drama for the characters in the story, they are creating this drama for you, the reader. The drama has to be present for you while consuming the media. Yes, the characters themselves have to feel like they are experiencing the drama, but the purpose of the entertainment media is to bring that drama to you, and to wrap you up with it so you can feel engaged with it, and get satisfaction from it.

The way you create drama in fiction is by creating stakes for whatever conflict is being presented. When you are dealing with relationship drama specifically, much of the stakes are boiled down to: will they or won't they. Will they or won't they get together, will they or won't they get married, will they or won't they work through their issues and choose to stay together. The drama comes into play by us, the readers, not knowing or not able to surmise easily what the end state of the drama is going to be. If I'm reading a scene about a couple, where one partner is saying to the other "I don't think I can do this anymore, I just don't know how to deal with this...", that scene carries more weight if I believe there is a strong reasonable chance that they don't stay together, that they don't make it work. That it ends in their personal failure, or personal decisions to end it. If I know, or can at least surmise what the "end state" of the drama is going to be, then my enjoyment of the media is going to be lessened. This is why the concept of "spoilers" exists, because it applies everywhere in consumption of entertainment media, and to all kinds of drama, not just relationship drama.

In the case of let's say, a young newly married Jewish couple in the real world, the drama is present for those involved: the couple, the immediate family members, the community that supports them. They are actually living it, and know the stakes involved: the marriage could fail. It could become so bad, so toxic (Navani/Gavilar) that one or both parties decide to walk away. Granted, in some communities, the social/moral/legal pressures may make such a thing more difficult, or downright impossible, however the possibility, however remote, still exists because it is the real world, and anything could happen. And more importantly, there are no "reader" expectations to be met in the real world.

So now we come back to the SA, and Brandon's current challenge with selling the drama that is Shadolin: how does he create appropriate drama for this couple based on what he has laid out to date? Well, he has to give us believable scenarios for success, and for failure. The possibility of failure, in this case, must come from the Shadolin themselves, not from external forces. From here on, we are now delving into more of my own personal opinions in struggling to understand some of the baffling writing choices that Brandon has made for this romance. I am placing it in spoiler tags because I believe that the content has a very high chance of ruining the dramatic experience for anyone who happens to take what I say seriously. There is also a strong chance that a moderator may suggest I create this as its own topic elsewhere. Also, @Karger this gets into more detail in continuing to answer your question from earlier.

Seriously, don't open this if you don't like these kinds of discussions, or do not want any chance (however remote) of ruining surprises or twists through the act of analyzing story structure

  Hide contents

 

First let's look the possible scenarios for this couple for the duration of the series:

Relationship continues for the duration

  • Happily Ever After: Shallan and Adolin work through their problems to the point where they can maintain a healthy and stable relationship that is meaningful and beneficial to both, and leave the reader feeling confident that they can tackle future challenges
  • Miserably Committed: Shallan and Adolin are unable to work through their problems (or ignore them completely), but both decide to stick it out because social/familial/legal pressures are too great for them to overcome, and one or both are still miserable by story conclusion

Relationship ends before the series

  • Amicable Split: One or both parties decide to end the marriage
  • Gavilar/Navani: One or both parties die before they work out their problems
  • Needlessly tragic: One or both parties die after they work out their problems

All of these are possibilities, but are they really all on the table for the narrative? Our enjoyment of any kind of drama for this couple is tied up in not knowing which one we will land on. However, we can make some surmises on which ones are our likely success/fail scenarios, based on expectations that Brandon has set up in his readers, character arcs that are still in progress that are related to the main narrative, and Brandon's own personal writing style, preferences, expierences, and bias. (Hope you like run-on sentences, because I'm not editing that...)

Ruled Out 

  • Miserably Committed: Most readers expect that Shadolin are going to at least try to work through their stuff, however it would not be in keeping with the kind of story that Brandon is laying out to detail this struggle, but not have us see any resulting character change. I believe Brandon would find this to be narratively unfulfilling for us. Commenting on the hopelessness of feeling stuck in a marriage you are unhappy with and cannot escape can be a very powerful story to tell. But this is not that kind of story. I personally rule this out
  • Amicable Split: This option depends upon having an in world mechanism for both parties to leave the marriage of their own accord. Currently, I know of nothing that indicates that Vorinism has a concept like divorce. I also think that the author's own strongly held convictions and biases eliminates this as a possibility for an MC in his novels. Perhaps a lesser character, but not his MCs. I could be wrong, and perhaps I even hope I am wrong. But for now, I've personally ruled this out.
  • Needlessly Tragic: This option may have them addressing their problems successfully, but with Amicable Split and Miserably Committed off the table (in my mind), the drama then won't come from the process of working through the issues, because the stakes are not there. Instead, the drama will come as a result of an external actor (death) after all that has taken place. End state for the relationship is still "problems overcome", and I will have known that that was where we were heading anyway. Why would I feel the dramatic tension here, and what would be the point of this journey for me. The death after this is just a twist, likely for tragic effect, and played no part to generate concern within me on whether they would or would not successfully deal with their issues. I don't think Brandon would do this, as it has a very high likelihood of being unsatisfying to many readers. I personally rule this out.

What remains

So now that I personally have ruled out several of these options, based on what I believe to be sound reasoning, what am I left with? Happily Ever After, or Gavilar/Navani. This is my problem. Both scenarios remain very likely, but they cannot create the stakes needed for dramatic enjoyment and fulfillment. I can only truly enjoy the fruit of the "together forever" scenario if I know that there was a real chance of the opposite happening. The only "not together" scenario still on the table, a "failure" scenario that needs to be present in order to balance the drama inducing stakes equation, is the one where someone dies. And death is not a consequence of either characters personal inability to overcome or work through relationship issues. The characters have no agency in that. It just ends. And yes, that's how it is sometimes in the real world, but you are less able to get away with something like that as a writer. Do this too much, and your readers are not going to leave the story feeling satisfied. At least I can say this particular reader won't.

This has been my struggle since the conclusion of OB. For 3 years, I have been unable to find a believable "success/fail" scenario pairing that will give me the needed stakes, and thus dramatic tension that will make reading Shadolin personally fulfilling. It just simply isn't there for me. Before you say it: of course a large part of this can be attributed to me being overly presumptive about what Brandon will or won't do. But I have reasoned the way I have reasoned, and I feel the way that I do. I do not believe there is any credible "relationship ending" scenario left for Shadolin that doesn't involve death, and that completely removes any chance I'll get enjoyment from reading about their struggles. The time for Brandon to capitalize on the "will they won't they" relationship drama was before they "tied the knot". Now that they are married, I know they'll make it through no matter what...or die trying.

 

 

So, for me, I don’t see the issue. You’re forgetting the first Oath: Journey before Destination. For me the tension isn’t in not knowing the end result; it’s in how we get there. 
 

For example: my all time favorite Georgette Heyer romance is A Civil Contract. The couple is married in the first few chapters of the book, eliminating the will they/won’t they question. The rest of the story is how the husband comes to love - and recognizes he loves - his wife. The end is inevitable... but the journey is one of the best walks through married life, and the exploration of marital love, I’ve ever read. (Should be noted: except in bait-and-switch partners, Regency Romances always end with the Alpha and Beta couples together. There really isn’t much suspense on that end. Getting there...)
 

I honestly feel this is the perfect relationship for SA, because the end point isn’t what’s important. The relationship itself is the tension and the story is their journey through it. Will they/won’t they are a dime a dozen. They have, but how do they go on from there, are far harder to find.
 

For me, the real question is whether or not Brandon can pull it off. It’s one of the trickiest romances to do right, because - as you noted - all the obvious tension, and nearly all suspense, is gone. It’s ALL about the Journey now, and Brandon is not the best with writing romances. He’s no Georgette Heyer; Wax/Steris and Siri/Susubron and Navani/Dalinar are the three best romances he’s done. Oddly, that gives me hope. The former two take place within an established relationship, as does Shadolin. So he may actually find established couples easier. But I’m still wary.

I’m glad to see this kind of romance being done, because it’s a rare one. But I am worried about whether or not Brandon can pull it off well, because it can be dull if it isn’t done right.

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2 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

Kaladin, by comparison, seems to be at risk of becoming one note.

100%. I think Brandon captures the psychology of depression amazingly and I have no issue with the fact that Kal will deal with the ups and downs however long he's in the series. My concern is that his story and how his psyche is used in each novel is becoming monotonous and it makes me concerned for his character because I just don't see Brandon allowing the same "Kal is dealing with his depression until he has some breakthrough in his thinking that allows him to progress in the ideals and then he blows everyone away with some new Radiant power while protecting someone" to keep going on and on, so I wonder what he's gonna do with Kal. 

2 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

As much as I rag on Adolin's character for not having much narrative arc, or developed depth, he at least has hobbies, interests, things that he enjoys doing for the sake of doing them

Yeah, Adolin's arc is a bit dull because he's basically the same all the time, but because he's been such a stable character, there's opportunity to do a lot with him. He could go super dark. Some people think he'll be Odium's Champion, which I doubt, but that's a different discussion.

2 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

Yeah, but Ned's death served a very big narrative purpose: it kicked off the War of the Five Kings, the events of which serve as the basis for the rest of the main narrative. He also wasn't in the middle of a character arc (a personal journey of internal change

I agree. I guess killing off Kal would serve no clear literary purpose. I just get a weird feeling about it--like how the Fused almost killed Kal by stabbing at his spine repeatedly; how Kal almost got seduced by Moash, etc. My hope is that Lirin ends up speaking the first ideal and maybe even 2nd and that he somehow plays into Kal's story in a larger way. 

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The more I think about it, the more I believe Navani could be communicating with the Nightwatcher in this chapter via spanreed. I gave a bunch of reasons why I think this could be the case in a previous post.

Anyone else? I'd love to know if I'm just off my rocker. 

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9 minutes ago, Soby said:

The more I think about it, the more I believe Navani could be communicating with the Nightwatcher in this chapter via spanreed. I gave a bunch of reasons why I think this could be the case in a previous post.

Do you have any new reasons?  Also you should not double post.

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Storms! I completely forgot about this week's chapter. I'm adjusting to the busiest long-term schedule I've had and it's being, weird.

Anyway, well, looks like I was wrong. Moash was indeed trying to convince Kaladin to kill himself. I'm still a bit surprised though. I didn't think Moash was so far gone to think of his actions as a mercy. If it was him simply trying to kill Kal out of mercy, it would be more usual but trying to convince him to do it himself? The villain doing wrong thinking it right is a pretty common trope but this is taking it to a whole other level.

Speaking of Kal, I don't know how to feel about him right now. He had worse moments in WoK, but they were short, and they ended as soon as he found something to drive him forward. Now the motivation is already there, but he's sinking all the same. His previous failures still weigh on him and he's accumulating even more. It's coming to be pretty in-your-face though, how the deaths are bothering him more than ever, how there have been several close calls during the year and how he froze every time. You all were right, everything is pointing, with neon lights and everything, to a fourth Ideal based on "You can't protect everyone". The journey towards it is gonna be rough though.

I can't say a thing about Shallan that hasn't been said before on the thread but I agree with that point about her personas not being separate beings. I never understood why some people seemed to think they were their own separate person with different skills and everything. OB makes a point of making clear that that isn't the case when Shallan goes so confidently to a bar and drinks the strongest thing they have, because Veil is a great drinker of course, and it goes terribly wrong. She knows nothing about liquors and she has zero tolerance. Now she is a great drinker but only after some intensive practice and because she has Stormlight to aid her. The point being, Veil cannot do anything that Shallan herself couldn't. Because she is a part of her, not some kind of parasite relying on her body. Now, where does that leave her for this book? I honestly don't know, several things that have been said here seem all really interesting and plausible. Is she adopted? A serial killer (beyond her parents)? A completely different being? Or is there no last truth save for that fact itself? I don't know, but it seems terrifying and I am so looking forward to her POVs during the rest of the book.

(Btw, someone said Adolin could be killed off as his character has no current nor potential future growth. Come on, OB was basically Setup for Adolin's Development: The Book, I'm convinced there's big stuff in store for him)

Navani. I love Navani but I feel somewhat uncomfortable with her opinion on the spren issue. Yes, it's a different culture, and yes, accepting that capturing spren is cruel would be accepting that her passion is inhumane and that she should leave it. But still, how nonchalantly she brushes off the issue as soon as she reads it, as if it were a joke almost. It wasn't too nice.

Also, those planet name drops! And we're only starting, supposedly the one with the Cosmere secrets is Venli. I can't wait.

Now, I have a couple crackpot theories that occured to me. (please don't take these seriously)

What if Shallan comes from another world, maybe Nalthis idk, and her eventually accepting that truth is the reason she's the first one of the main group to start becoming Cosmere-aware?

What if every surge fabrial has the same chain structure, because you're effectively chaining the spren and dragging it around?

What if Feverstone Keep is in Amia? What about Ashyn?

Ok, enough I believe. Great chapter. Sorry for being late.

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