RoW Chapter 9 Discussion

[Gilphon]

• Wait, so what's the difference between Zinc and Pewter, in the context of Fabrials? Pewter makes the spren 'express its attribute in force', whereas Zinc 'allows to control expression strength' by 'causing the spren to more strongly manifest'. I don't see how those things are super different. But Navani seems to be treating zinc as one of most important metals for making fabrials work, and implies that pewter is more specialized. There's a distinction I'm missing here.
• Regardless, we're now up to six metals that imitate their Allomantic function in Fabrials. Specifically their Allomantic function, not the Feruchemical or Hemalurgic one. Really eight, since I doubt iron would break the pattern and tin is very similar in all three metallic arts. I feel like that's enough to prove the point, given that most of one that's left are ones that Navani probably wouldn't be working with. Like it's basically just copper and gold that we're waiting on confirmation for now. 
• Navani doesn't recognize the metal in the new Fabrial. One of the weirder Allomantic metals, like chromium, or Odium's godmetal? I wish we'd been told what colour the fabrial is; that would really help narrow it down. 
• It seems like ancient Fabrials were constructed using a different principle, even if their function is the same. I wonder if this person threatening Navani would feel the same way if she was using the ancient method?
• It sounds like the Honorspren are uncomfortable with what Navani's doing, but aren't going as far as to condemn it outright. That's a stance that leaves open the possibility of spren with more extreme views existing. Are we dealing with the spren equivalent of an animal rights activist? 

[+Harrycrapper]

14 minutes ago, Black_Shoshan said:

I think we'll get a Venli chapter soon, either next chapter, or the one after that at the latest, since we have winded down from the "climax". However, it seems like there won't be any flashbacks in part 1. Brandon recently said this over at Reddit:

 

Ah that explains it.

[Elena]

27 minutes ago, Honorless said:

8) Adolin is downright uncomfortable with the other personas and considers them separate people. I mean, I noticed this before, it's just so much more stark in this scene

I admit I'm not up to date with current interpretations of Shallan's personas or new WoBs on the subject, but I personally am always left uncomfortable when reading her chapters, because her whole personality situation makes me uneasy. I can't imagine living it! 

While it's a big step for Shallan to feel like she can be herself (all of herself!) around Adolin and not have to hide in that sense, I can also appreciate how gruelling that must be on Adolin. If he's ever spooked by the situation, who does he have to turn to? Who can he go to if he needs to vent a bit? It's not his secret to share. Adolin tries to be Shallan's support system and she accepts her as such in part and that's good for them, but Adolin has no support system of his own when it comes to this issue.

[theTruthshaper]

2 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

Wait, so what's the difference between Zinc and Pewter, in the context of Fabrials? Pewter makes the spren 'express its attribute in force', whereas Zinc 'allows to control expression strength' by 'causing the spren to more strongly manifest'. I don't see how those things are super different. But Navani seems to be treating zinc as one of most important metals for making fabrials work, and implies that pewter is more specialized. There's a distinction I'm missing here.

They do different things. Zinc makes the spren stronger, but it would not have any effect on it's surroundings. Pewter makes the spren project its attribute.

 

[Friendshipspren]

1 hour ago, Harbour said:

Yep, i find it disturbing.

Perhaps u do , but some of us including me of course think it's ok. Like it might be a bit discomforting at first but really which novelty isn't ?

I would go as far as to say I love shallan because of it rather than inspite of it.

I mean how cool is it to be married to a stable hivemind . 

I really hope the Three ( or Four ) get  through all this without losing anyone. 

Edited September 1, 2020 by PrinceGenocide
A little polishing

[Gilphon]

 

6 minutes ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

They do different things. Zinc makes the spren stronger, but it would not have any effect on it's surroundings. Pewter makes the spren project its attribute.

 

No, see, Navani's talking about Augmenters as a more stormlight-intensive variant of Fabrials. If they didn't project their attribute at all without Pewter, then Pewter would be a basic component of most Fabrials. One of the primary metals that make Fabrials useful. But that's the role she said Zinc plays, implying the other metals are more specialized. 

Edited September 1, 2020 by Gilphon

[theTruthshaper]

2 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

 

No, see, Navani's talking about Augmenters as a more stormlight-intensive variant of Fabrials. If they didn't project their attribute at all without Pewter, then Pewter would be a basic component of most Fabrials. One of the primary metals that make Fabrials useful. But that's the role she said Zinc plays, implying the other metals are more specialized. 

Does she say that Pewter is not a basic component? It's probably because you don't always require the attribute to be projected(Eg. spanreeds)

Quote

A pewter cage will cause the spren of your fabrial to express its attribute in force—a flamespren, for example, will create heat. We call these augmenters. They tend to use Stormlight more quickly than other fabrials.

This clearly tells us that the pewter is what causes a heating fabrial to heat up. Zinc in this case would change the amount of heat/the temperature of the fabrial.

[Lightspine]

20 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

• Wait, so what's the difference between Zinc and Pewter, in the context of Fabrials? Pewter makes the spren 'express its attribute in force', whereas Zinc 'allows to control expression strength' by 'causing the spren to more strongly manifest'. I don't see how those things are super different. But Navani seems to be treating zinc as one of most important metals for making fabrials work, and implies that pewter is more specialized. There's a distinction I'm missing here.

I think the phrasing was a little weird, but it seems that Pewter is necessary for all Augmenter fabrials. Like, the painrial from Oathbringer used Pewter to cause pain and probably Tin (Pewter's counterpart) to suppress the pain of the wearer. Zinc and Brass control expression strength while Pewter determines what attribute is expressed. At least, that's my interpretation.

Edit: @The_Truthwatcher seems to have the same idea and beat me to it by a minute.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Lightspine

[Gilphon]

7 minutes ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

Does she say that Pewter is not a basic component? It's probably because you don't always require the attribute to be projected(Eg. spanreeds)

Implicitly she does, by calling zinc and brass "The two metals of primary significance", and saying that augmenters "tend to use Stormlight more quickly than other fabrials", implying that augmenters are not what she considers to be normal Fabrials. Which can only mean that zinc does something more generally useful than Pewter. 

But, under your interpretation, what exactly would be the point of using zinc without pewter? Like you don't need to care about how strong the expression is if the expression isn't being projected. That would make pewter the primary metal and zinc the variant, but Navani just told us the opposite is true.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Gilphon

[theTruthshaper]

Just now, Gilphon said:

Implicitly she does, by calling zinc and brass "The two metals of primary significance", and saying that augmenters "tend to use Stormlight more quickly than other fabrials", implying that augmenters are not what she considers to be normal Fabrials. Which can only mean that zinc does something more generally useful than Pewter. 

But, under your interpretation, what exactly would be the point of using zinc without pewter? Like you don't need to care about how strong the expression is if the expression isn't being projected. That would make pewter the primary metal and zinc the variant, but Navani just told us the opposite is true.

Conjoiner fabrials and those variants would not require pewter. On the other hand, zinc and brass are necessary to control the strength of a fabrial. Augmenters are only a class of fabrials, which consists of fabrials having an area effect.

[Rainier]

1 hour ago, DeployParachute said:

But, you know, that's my problem to figure it out, and it's not the end of the world if I don't. I'll just know its time for me to bow out of this series.

Or, hear me out here, skip those chapters. Skim, at best. You'll miss some foreshadowing, but so be it.

48 minutes ago, Honorless said:

8) Adolin is downright uncomfortable with the other personas and considers them separate people. I mean, I noticed this before, it's just so much more stark in this scene

Of course he considers them separate people, they treat him as if they were three separate people. For his purposes, they are separate. It's easier than wondering why your wife goes cold and stiffens up from time to time. It still probably hurts, but at least you can salve it by participating in the lie that it's not actually your wife.

Also, my title was, for a moment, Torturer of Heralds, with 666 reputation. Alas, it seems to have gone just as quickly as it appeared.

49 minutes ago, Agent34 said:

Because they are separate people.

One person, actually. There's just one person bonded to Pattern, one person who can summon a shardblade, one person who has sworn the oaths and spoken the truths. And there's one person who Adolin married, who sometimes thinks she's someone else.

[+Oltux72]

28 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

• Wait, so what's the difference between Zinc and Pewter, in the context of Fabrials? Pewter makes the spren 'express its attribute in force', whereas Zinc 'allows to control expression strength' by 'causing the spren to more strongly manifest'. I don't see how those things are super different. But Navani seems to be treating zinc as one of most important metals for making fabrials work, and implies that pewter is more specialized. There's a distinction I'm missing here.

I suppose if you used zinc on a flame spren, you'd get an actual flame, as opposed to heat from pewter.

 

[joesleepsalot]

1 hour ago, Govir said:

I’m not sure, since we don’t know much about the Sibling. But it’s just what my first gut reaction was.

My first reaction was the exact same—- obviously the mechanics of the situation would need explaining but I thought “sibling” very strongly

[Gilphon]

Okay, okay, how's this for a model:

• Iron and Steel make a fabrial attract or repulse the spren's attribute
• Pewter makes the fabrial convert stormlight into the attribute
• Bronze makes Alerter fabrials, but only with Heliodors for reasons we still don't understand. Something about the difference between detecting the use of Investiture and detecting the presence of people, I suspect.
• Aluminium blocks off the effect, and also does whatever that technobabble Navani had about using aluminium in her airship meant.
• Diminishers, Conjoiners and Reversers are still mysterious to us. I understand the logic behind suggesting tin for Diminishers, but disagree; Tin has never acted as a reverse of Pewter that directly before.
• Copper and Tin presumably do things that they know about but Navani hasn't told us yet.
• Zinc and Brass affect how strongly any of the above effects manifest. So Pewter creates heat, but zinc and brass are temperature controls. Steel can draw in water, but Zinc and Brass control how quickly the water moves. And so on.

[+Oltux72]

8 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

Okay, okay, how's this for a model:

I suggest this be taken to the thread dedicated to fabrials.

[+Bliev]

16 minutes ago, joesleepsalot said:

My first reaction was the exact same—- obviously the mechanics of the situation would need explaining but I thought “sibling” very strongly

That was my first reaction too, but do we have any evidence at all that a spren could control a spanreed, let alone write in women's script? Would they have to be manifest in shadesmar to do it? I think it more likely that it's a sleepless, and it will be the first indication of the sleepless's role in this war, beyond the Kaza interlude. After all, if they were unable to prevent people from coming to Aimia, and they took the soul casters that were there, the Sleepless are probably the most motivated to prevent an earth shattering event. If Radiant Spren are captured and their surges are controlled at will--instead of bound by oaths and bonds--anyone could destroy the world. Dawnshards == Soulcasters? (maybe complicated ones that have all the surges at their finger tips?)

[+Child of Hodor]

20 minutes ago, joesleepsalot said:

My first reaction was the exact same—- obviously the mechanics of the situation would need explaining but I thought “sibling” very strongly

Same. That would be the most interesting thing and she’s been looking for Them. 

[Karger]

30 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I suppose if you used zinc on a flame spren, you'd get an actual flame, as opposed to heat from pewter.

I think it more probable that if you use zinc the flamespren itself gets bigger.  I imagine a zinc enhanced heating fabrial is more powerful yet less efficient then a regular one.

 

 

[Master Silver]

Only read the first page of comments, by my theory is Navani's mysterious communicator is the Sibling. In many ways it is similar to what happens to Dalinar with the StromFather. Remember how skewed the StormFather's point of view was before the bond. He tried to wipe out the Alethi. Without the bond the Sibling views fabrial technology as an assault on all spren, whom he considers his kin and family. I guess the sibling can use transportation to communicate with Navani. The way she has already become more of a fabrial scholar and made leaps and bounds in a year indicates the possibility that a bond is already forming. Also how she can see more when Dalinar creates a perpendicularity than others can see is also an indication that a bond may be forming. Going out on a limb but perhaps reviving dead eyes (dead sharde blades) is how she can prove herself to the Sibling and for goodness sake get Dalinar a blade.... cough* Oathbringer. 

 

Sorry if someone has said this on the other pages. 

[Eternal Khol]

18 minutes ago, Karger said:

50 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

 

I think it more probable that if you use zinc the flamespren itself gets bigger.  I imagine a zinc enhanced heating fabrial is more powerful yet less efficient then a regular one.

My thoughts exactly.

The way i see it is, in the context of a Heat Fabrial

 

say the spren is manifested 25% using Zinc (not at all sure if thats how it works, but lets say it does) and then its attribute is expressed at 50% using Pewter.
that Heatrial, will theoretically only be outputting 12% of its total possible strength.(the spren is only manifested a quarter of the way, and its only running at half power. So half of 25% is 12.5%)

but if you manifested the Spren as fully as you can using zinc and expressed its attribute as much as possible using Pewter, then you should be getting 100% output out of that heatrial(assuming everything runs efficiently and there are no other modifiers to enhance the strength of the output)

Edited September 1, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Karger]

11 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

I guess the sibling can use transportation to communicate with Navani.

How would the sibling do that though?  Bondsmith spren traditionally only have adhesion and tension.

[Master Silver]

Is that true of all Bondsmith spren or just the StormFather. I feel like Bond Smiths break a lot of rules. And I say transportation because it sort seems to me like the gem just appeared there (and magic right?). Someone said the Sibling was asleep, but it seems to have woken up. Maybe Radiants being more a tuned to rhythms is an indication of this (or maybe they are just encountering more Singers and Fused). 

[Honorless]

How did Odium's forces come to know enough about Urithiru's gemstone pillar to make the anti-Radiant fabrial? Did they just never managed to re-engineer it independently till now?

Did they get the schematics from someone? Taravangian? During the invasion? Re-Shephir?

[+Harrycrapper]

I got the sense that the person communicating with Navani was a Sleepless, possibly the one from the Akinah interlude in OB. Wouldn't be hard to get some cremlings to bring in the ruby and then get out. It very well could have been put there during the battle when everyone was distracted. 

[bdoble97]

Sorry if this was already talked about. Shallan and Formless. I have two idea is this her 4th. Personality who's doing the stuff for the ghostblood or  could formless be her unborn child. I don't it's her unborn child but I like the idea. Plus I can't wait to find out the memories that she has forgotten.