adfae112

Dalinar is WAY, WAY worse than Sadeas

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Sadeas encouraged Dalinar to burn Rathalas. If he was opposed to the decision, he would've at least tried to dissuade him (although I don't think he would have succeeded), but he actively supported him. Sadeas was just as bad as Dalinar, but he was sly about it, while Dalinar was transparent about who he was. And Dalinar ultimately decided to change, while Sadeas felt no remorse for his actions. 

Also, Sadeas slaughtered Parshendi that surrendered, not to mention using the bridge crews and betraying his allies. Yeah, I think Adolin was in the right for doing the stabby-stab. 

(And I imagine it would've gone much worse for Team Radiant at Thaylen City if Sadeas was on Odium's side in place of Amaram. So... Good job Adolin.)

Edited by Victory
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16 hours ago, adfae112 said:

If people are defending that Adolin's murder of Sadeas is justiable, than Dalinar by proxy should be killed like twenty times over for burning children. I don't care who does it -- Dalinar, compare to what Sadeas has ever done, is an irredeemable monster. If you think otherwise, than you also agree Adolin (that cremling) deserves to face the consequences for first degree murder and for trying to cover it up.

agreed. its a huge part of the book. perception. Adolin is percieved as having done the right thing. in the grand scheme of things, he has. it was still murder.

Dalinar has a change of heart. he was a monster before. worse than Sadeas? maybe. he definitely enjoyed killing more. that much is clear.

would he deserve death for his former attorcities? I say yes.

somehow this was necessary to defend against Odiums influence. does the end justify the means? dabatable.

 

16 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Why? Collectively acting against populations is the core of war..

that does not and never will make these actions good.

each example listed innocent people were killed. if you throw bombs on innocents you are the bad guy. wether you just push the buttom you are ordered to push or give the order. you are the bad guy.

maybe you are able to live with yourself like this, like Dalinar did, but you remain the bad guy.

Edited by trav
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The difference is honor (heh). Dalinar killed children and defeated lords without mercy to unite the realm. He later forgets everything and when he remembers, he hates himself for it and tries to make amends. 

Sadeas kills and betrays for his own gain; he tries to convince himself that it is for gavilar, but it’s really not. After he commited the atrocities, he only regretted that they didn’t work. 
 

Adolin killed sadeas in rage, but regretted his deeds immediately. He later opened up to his father about it and accepted any punishment.

i think sadeas is the worst morally and should have been removed from his place as highprince. Dalinar should probably serve war crimes and have his reputation destroyed, which it kinda was. Adolin should be charged for murder. Dalinar and Adolin would probably plead guilty, so they would get lessened charges, and they did regret their actions.

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56 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

The difference is honor (heh). Dalinar killed children and defeated lords without mercy to unite the realm. He later forgets everything and when he remembers, he hates himself for it and tries to make amends. 

Sadeas kills and betrays for his own gain; he tries to convince himself that it is for gavilar, but it’s really not. After he commited the atrocities, he only regretted that they didn’t work. 
 

Adolin killed sadeas in rage, but regretted his deeds immediately. He later opened up to his father about it and accepted any punishment.

i think sadeas is the worst morally and should have been removed from his place as highprince. Dalinar should probably serve war crimes and have his reputation destroyed, which it kinda was. Adolin should be charged for murder. Dalinar and Adolin would probably plead guilty, so they would get lessened charges, and they did regret their actions.

I think arguing that anything about killing children is "honorable" is some dangerous territory. Even as the Blackthorn, Dalanar refused to kill Tanalan because killing a kid is despicable and he knew it. Burning Rathalas was not about honor, it was about anger and revenge, and everyone would agree it was a bad decision. It ended the conflict quicker than a drawn out war, but at the expense of hundreds of innocents. There isn't and shouldn't be anything honorable about that, and there's no defense to what Dalinar did, the only defense is that he worked to become better after that. Ultimately, the difference between Dalinar and Sadeas is that Dalinar began to regret his actions and change before Sadeas did. Would Sadeas had the same turn of heart if he lived longer? Possibly, and Adolin may have robbed him of that chance, but the longer you keep going down the same path, the more you invite opportunities where someone's going to shank you in an alley.

Also, Adolin did not regret his actions, he said as much in Oathbringer, but it was because he thought this was the only way to keep Sadeas from doing more harm.

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Dalinar is not at all worse than Sadeas! First of all, they were both murderers and terrible people. Sadeas even has the added thing of raping women from the cities they conquered. That already makes Sadeas worse than Dalinar, but it doesn't matter because you are missing the point (Pretty much the whole theme of the series). People are cabable of change and improvement. Dalinar is no longer the same terrible person he was before. He is a completely changed and improved man.

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Is Dalinar a monster? At one point, yes. Does he deserve to die for what he did? At one point, yes. Is he worse that Sadeas? At one point, yes. Can he ever be forgiven? Yes. Could Sadeas have been forgiven? Yes. But the unfortunate thing about life is we don't all get to live as long as we could have and we don't all get to experience redemption. I can acknowledge that it was right for Adolin to kill Sadeas, but that it would have been better if he had a chance to redeem himself. Unfortunately, he never saw a need for redemption, which led to him getting killed. But a person's life is not just the sum total of their sins. Nor is it a sum total of their virtues. Its a chaotic mix of people living how they want to live, often with little regard as to what truly is the best way for them to live. All that to say, Dalinar has become a better man, and that can't be ignored. I wish Sadeas had become a better man as well, but I won't mourn his death, just as I would not have mourned Dalinar had he died at the rift. 

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I think the difference between Dalinar and Sadeas is that: Dalinar wasn't really the one making decisions, Sadeas and Gavilar was. Dalinar always feel more like a common soldier to me 

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What reference frame are we in? How annoying they are? [Sadeas]. Their war crimes? [Dalinar] Their military might? [Dalinar]? Their terrible fashion sense? [Sadeas]. We just like Dalinar more because Sadeas is a smarmy, smug cremling and Dalinar is a chull. Chulls can at least pull things, even if they trample things in the process, but cremlings are pesky things that are only good for killing and eating. 

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It needs to be noted that during pretty much all of Dalinars atrocities, he was under the influence of the thrill. Sadeas on the other hand, he calculated, plotted and schemed. He had no problem sending men to die needlessly. None of this was in the heat of battle, under the influence of an unmade and not in control. That was all extra 

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My biggest issue with the original post is the use of the present tense.  To me that implies at the most current moment in the story, which would be the end of Oathbringer (or maybe somewhere in Rhythms of War for those who have been reading the spoiler chapters i guess).  in any event, flashback Dalinar is pretty much a monster, as described.  there are glimpses of someone better in there, especially after he marries, but for the most part he's pretty bad.  present day Dalinar, on the other hand, is not that.  He has spent years improving himself, so much so that the man in the flashbaks is almost unrecognizable.  Sadeas, on the other hand, really was terrible, and more importantly he continued to be terrible right up until the moment of his death.  Sadeas deserved what he got.  flashback Dalinar would have deserved it too, present day Dalinar probably does not.

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I think if Dalinar is worthy of redemption it will show in the choices he makes in RoW. If he tries to win the war by exterminating the parsh, it means he has learned nothing from previous mistakes. What I didn't like about Oatbringer's ending is that Dalinar seems to feel remorse just for killing his wife not for all the other innocent people he has massacred. And it is enough for him to obtain Evi's forgiveness to resolve all his conflicts. I found it too convenient a solution.

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3 hours ago, Gisaku75 said:

I think if Dalinar is worthy of redemption it will show in the choices he makes in RoW. If he tries to win the war by exterminating the parsh, it means he has learned nothing from previous mistakes. What I didn't like about Oatbringer's ending is that Dalinar seems to feel remorse just for killing his wife not for all the other innocent people he has massacred. And it is enough for him to obtain Evi's forgiveness to resolve all his conflicts. I found it too convenient a solution.

The way I viewed it was that Evi's was the catalyst for it. Afterall it was his warmongering that killed her in the first place. As far as I'm concerned, the books we have already have shown that he is better. He wanted a truce with the Parshendi rather than extermination for example despite them assassinating his brother. Oathbringer was just a showcase for how bad he used to be and how much better of a person he is. In Oathbringer while he doesn't say it outright, it seemed pretty clear to me that he didn't approve of Jasnah's suggestions to either kill the Heralds or commit genocide against the parshmen

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On 9/1/2020 at 5:56 PM, Cammac said:

It needs to be noted that during pretty much all of Dalinars atrocities, he was under the influence of the thrill. Sadeas on the other hand, he calculated, plotted and schemed. He had no problem sending men to die needlessly. None of this was in the heat of battle, under the influence of an unmade and not in control. That was all extra 

Actually, the reason Sadeas is doing everything he is is because he only lives for the Thrill. He mentions it at some point, I think his viewpoint segment once he gets Oathbringer.

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First off, I'd wager that the one of the main reasons fans don't hate Dalinar as much as Moash is because we first saw the former mid-redemption.

Second, let's not forget that Dalinar has such trouble with the coalition because many people outside Alethkar see him as a monster (or at very least someone who will conquer them the first chance he gets). It's not as if he's gotten off without punishment, it's just that the culture that committed the crime is one that considers resolving conflicts peacefully base cowardice.

Third, as so many people said, Dalinar tried to be better, Sadeas didn't and was promising to do the same as he always did or worse.

Edited by jamesbondsmith
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On 8/31/2020 at 6:19 PM, adfae112 said:

If people are defending that Adolin's murder of Sadeas is justiable, than Dalinar by proxy should be killed like twenty times over for burning children. I don't care who does it -- Dalinar, compare to what Sadeas has ever done, is an irredeemable monster. If you think otherwise, than you also agree Adolin (that cremling) deserves to face the consequences for first degree murder and for trying to cover it up.

damnation son, would you like a ladder for all this REACHING you're doing?

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So... has anyone else noticed yet that the person who created this topic not only hasn't come back yet to actually discuss things but literally has not posted anything else but this? I took a look and while their post count says they have multiple posts, actually looking finds only the one...

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I did notice they hadn't come back.  as to the post count, I'm wondering if maybe deleted posts don't decrease post count?  that's the only explanation I can come up with - that they have a few posts that were deleted.  might also explain why they haven't come back

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1 hour ago, Weltall said:

So... has anyone else noticed yet that the person who created this topic not only hasn't come back yet to actually discuss things but literally has not posted anything else but this? I took a look and while their post count says they have multiple posts, actually looking finds only the one...

This may be too cynical, but I think the OP was looking for...sympathetic ears. When they didn't find any on Reddit, they came here. (or vice-versa.) When none were to be found here, they moved somewhere else. Their Reddit account has been inactive since that first post too. 

Or maybe they were a troll who got their kicks and moved onto something else. 

Or maybe all of the feedback convinced them to rethink their opinions. 

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