Dalinar is WAY, WAY worse than Sadeas

[adfae112]

If people are defending that Adolin's murder of Sadeas is justiable, than Dalinar by proxy should be killed like twenty times over for burning children. I don't care who does it -- Dalinar, compare to what Sadeas has ever done, is an irredeemable monster. If you think otherwise, than you also agree Adolin (that cremling) deserves to face the consequences for first degree murder and for trying to cover it up.

[+Oltux72]

Why? Collectively acting against populations is the core of war. What Dalinar did was no different from bombings: Guernica, Rotterdam, Belgrade, Hamburg, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Hanoi ...

Dalinar, in contrast to Sadeas, has not betrayed allies.

[Kalaksbreath]

10 minutes ago, adfae112 said:

If people are defending that Adolin's murder of Sadeas is justiable, than Dalinar by proxy should be killed like twenty times over for burning children. I don't care who does it -- Dalinar, compare to what Sadeas has ever done, is an irredeemable monster. If you think otherwise, than you also agree Adolin (that cremling) deserves to face the consequences for first degree murder and for trying to cover it up.

Sadeas says strait up that he intends to kill Dalinar how would you react if someone said that they were going to kill your father and take everything he as worked to create and say that they were the ones who did it all the work.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Kalaksbreath

[Quantus]

45 minutes ago, Kalaksbreath said:

Sadeas says strait up that he intends to kill Dalinar how would you react if someone said that they were going to kill your father and take everything he as worked to create and say that they were the ones who did it all the work.

"Strait up that he intends to kill Dalinar" is very much NOT what happened.  Sadeas was Dalinar's ally in battle, and at the moment he was supposed to come in and join the battle he turned his back. This was calculated betrayal after he swore to put their politics aside and work together.  

[Lunamor]

1 hour ago, adfae112 said:

If people are defending that Adolin's murder of Sadeas is justiable, than Dalinar by proxy should be killed like twenty times over for burning children. I don't care who does it -- Dalinar, compare to what Sadeas has ever done, is an irredeemable monster. If you think otherwise, than you also agree Adolin (that cremling) deserves to face the consequences for first degree murder and for trying to cover it up.

Sadeas had probably killed as many people- remember that he was a heavy supporter and influencer on Dalinar’s decision to burn Rathalas, and he was a Shardbeaer/General too. He was also way more competitive about the Parshendi battles and likely ended up killing more of them than Dalinar.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Lunamor

[StanLemon]

Sadeas was a traitor who was threatening not just Dalinar but the entire world for his own petty reasons. At least Dalinar acknowledged that what he's done is unforgivable and is trying to be a better person. That's the biggest difference between Sadeas and Dalinar

[Lunamor]

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

Sadeas was a traitor who was threatening not just Dalinar but the entire world for his own petty reasons. At least Dalinar acknowledged that what he's done is unforgivable and is trying to be a better person. That's the biggest difference between Sadeas and Dalinar

Exactly! Sadeas felt remorse at losing powerful allies while Dalinar felt remorse at causing others pain.

[Eluvianii]

10 minutes ago, Quantus said:

"Strait up that he intends to kill Dalinar" is very much NOT what happened.  Sadeas was Dalinar's ally in battle, and at the moment he was supposed to come in and join the battle he turned his back. This was calculated betrayal after he swore to put their politics aside and work together.  

I think they were talking about book 2?

 

Anyway, I don't think there any irredeemable sins. Dalinar is working really hard to redeem his. Adolin hopefully will do his part. Sadeas never had any second thoughts. Adolin was hasty in his decision, true, but where Dalinar struggled to find what was right and do it, Sadeas was given the arguments and several chances and still didn't care. He stuck to his own ideals, which I respect, but he had it coming.

[I Am A Fish]

On one hand, yes Dalinar acted like a horrible monster who was arguably worse than Sadeas.

On the other hand, Dalinar worked for twenty or so years to change, and become better.

From my view Dalinar is probably not worse than Sadeas. He worked to change, and tried to be better. Even if he committed crimes worse than Sadeas. (Of course Sadeas could've committed crimes just as bad.)

And if people remember Dalinar did actually kill his own men, so technically yes, he committed betrayal.

It feels like I'm arguing against myself.

Shallan is probably influencing me.

Edited August 31, 2020 by I Used To Be A Fish

[EddyJ]

Dalinar was repentant; Sadeas was unrepentant. That's the difference.

[Raphaborn]

1 hour ago, adfae112 said:

If people are defending that Adolin's murder of Sadeas is justiable, than Dalinar by proxy should be killed like twenty times over for burning children. I don't care who does it -- Dalinar, compare to what Sadeas has ever done, is an irredeemable monster. If you think otherwise, than you also agree Adolin (that cremling) deserves to face the consequences for first degree murder and for trying to cover it up.

To try to be a better person and to act in a way that has to deal with the consequences of this, even if someone is invaluable to humanity and try to save the world and humanity from destruction = irredeemable monster.

Being a petty selfish, trying to overthrow the king, betraying an ally trying to seek peace and unity between the kingdoms, and causing the death of an almost entire army, not repenting and trying to continue undermining the attempt to protect humanity = poor wronged murdered by the monstrous Adolin.

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, Eluvianii said:

I think they were talking about book 2?

Well, then I really dont get the OP's argument. It sounds like they are saying that Sadeas was being straightforward or honest or something about his intentions.  Sadeas was far more of a selfish and deceitful monster, and with a far more cavalier disregard for life. He also came to admit to himself that he didnt actually care about the Why of the fighting anymore, he just enjoyed the Thrill of the fight.  

[Eluvianii]

10 minutes ago, Quantus said:

So was I...

Huh. Then I really need to reread WoR. I thought you were talking about the Tower. What I remember happening in book 2 is Sadeas basically threatening Adolin with everything he's going to do to Dalinar and Adolin goes "Braize no!" and kills him to prevent him from keeping his word.

9 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Well, then I really dont get the OP's argument. It sounds like they are saying that Sadeas was being straightforward or honest or something about his intentions.  Sadeas was far more of a selfish and deceitful monster, and with a far more cavalier disregard for life. He also came to admit to himself that he didnt actually care about the Why of the fighting anymore, he just enjoyed the Thrill of the fight.  

Agreed. I think OP was talking about the sheer numbers Dalinar had, and how horrible their deaths were and, just the cold-blooded-ness of Adolin while killing Sadeas? If we go by kill count, both Dalinar and Sadeas are on equal ground I think, and if we go by intentions, Sadeas had the worst by far, so either way the point doesn't stand.

[Quantus]

8 minutes ago, Eluvianii said:

Huh. Then I really need to reread WoR. I thought you were talking about the Tower. What I remember happening in book 2 is Sadeas basically threatening Adolin with everything he's going to do to Dalinar and Adolin goes "Braize no!" and kills him to prevent him from keeping his word.

No, nevermind, I was mixed up into thinking the WoK betrayal happened in WoR.  This is what I get for trying a back-to-back re-read.

8 minutes ago, Eluvianii said:

Agreed. I think OP was talking about the sheer numbers Dalinar had, and how horrible their deaths were and, just the cold-blooded-ness of Adolin while killing Sadeas? If we go by kill count, both Dalinar and Sadeas are on equal ground I think, and if we go by intentions, Sadeas had the worst by far, so either way the point doesn't stand.

Honestly Im not so sure, based purely on the horrific cost of life we can attribute to Sadeas' Bridge strategy as compared to Dalinar's.  Lots of people died i the Rift, and a crap-ton more in Gavilar's War of Conquest, but I suspect that the accumulated death-toll from five years of Sadeas' meatgrinder would actually dwarf what the Blackthorn bulled off in his heyday.  

[king of nowhere]

if nothing else, sades was with dalinar at the rift, and he planned strategy with dalinar as an equal. sadeas is as much responsible for the rift as dalinar. in fact, all the crimes dalinar ever committed during his time as warlord, sadeas was on his team, and equally responsible.

may i also point out that dalinar was trying to find excuse to not loot towns, while sadeas had his soldiers pick the good looking girls among the townspeople for him to rape? for all of dalinar's troubled past, even at his worst, he still was much better than sadeas.

[I Am A Fish]

2 hours ago, adfae112 said:

If people are defending that Adolin's murder of Sadeas is justiable, than Dalinar by proxy should be killed like twenty times over for burning children. I don't care who does it -- Dalinar, compare to what Sadeas has ever done, is an irredeemable monster. If you think otherwise, than you also agree Adolin (that cremling) deserves to face the consequences for first degree murder and for trying to cover it up.

QQ: Have you finished OB?

[Kalaksbreath]

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

"Strait up that he intends to kill Dalinar" is very much NOT what happened.  Sadeas was Dalinar's ally in battle, and at the moment he was supposed to come in and join the battle he turned his back. This was calculated betrayal after he swore to put their politics aside and work together.  

I was referring to when Adolin does the deed and actually kills Sadeas, Sadeas says he will kill and steal Dalinars legacy ( I'm not 100% he physically said I will kill Dalinar but he does go on about how he will take his legacy and he at least implies that he will kill Dalinar).

[I Am A Fish]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Bah, accidental double post...

Can't you just hide it?

[Use the Falchion]

2 hours ago, I Used To Be A Fish said:

QQ: Have you finished OB?

OP is far enough into the book that they finished the flashbacks at the very least, given the replies to the same post on Reddit.

 

Edited August 31, 2020 by Use the Falchion

[Nellac]

I think calling what Adolin did first degree murder is a stretch. I would consider it a rightful execution of a dangerous criminal. Now, I know that Adolin doesn't have any legal authority and it's bad for one person to be judge, jury, and executioner. The thing that makes it bad though is lack of evidence. The entire train for the big legal systems most countries have is to make sure no one is convicted of a come they didn't commit. This is why due process is so important. In this situation however, there is absolutely no question of guilt. Adolin witnessed Sadeus' previous crimes and Sadeus admitted to planning even worse things in the future. With that much evidence there's not a jury on Roshar, if they have them, that would say Sadeus isn't guilty.

[Weltall]

27 minutes ago, Nellac said:

I think calling what Adolin did first degree murder is a stretch

It's not just a stretch, if you put Adolin in a modern court on that charge he'd be found not guilty because the killing wasn't premeditated, which is what distinguishes first from second degree murder. I'm pretty sure even a halfway-competent attorney would be able to demonstrate that to the satisfaction of a judge and jury. Storms, I'm pretty sure even if Hoid were acting as Adolin's defense counsel he'd prevail. Wait, that would be kind of awesome.

And... not much else to add, everyone else has covered it all I think.

[clockworkspider]

46 minutes ago, Weltall said:

It's not just a stretch, if you put Adolin in a modern court on that charge he'd be found not guilty because the killing wasn't premeditated, which is what distinguishes first from second degree murder. I'm pretty sure even a halfway-competent attorney would be able to demonstrate that to the satisfaction of a judge and jury. Storms, I'm pretty sure even if Hoid were acting as Adolin's defense counsel he'd prevail. Wait, that would be kind of awesome.

And... not much else to add, everyone else has covered it all I think.

I mean, Hoid made clear in Way of Kings that he has no use for Sadeas whatsoever, so...I could see him actually taking that job seriously.

[Honorless]

Sadeas devised the Bridgecrews

[I Am A Fish]

4 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Sadeas devised the Bridgecrews

Yep.

[ftl]

I mean, the big difference between Dalinar and Sadeas is the redemption that Dalinar looked for and found and Sadeas did not.

It's the theme of Oathbringer. "The most important words a man can say are, “I will do better.”" and ending with . "I, of all people, can change." Dalinar was the perfect picture of a horrible monster, Odium's future champion. Then he changed.

Sadeas too had many opportunities to be better. He chose not to take them, until his time ran out.