Odeem

Stormlight 5

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So I had a random thought -

I know we have no real idea how the first half the of the series is going to wrap up, but i seem to recall that it's supposed to wrap up so we have two sets of stories with a time jump in between.

So I had been thinking the only real way to stop the conflict i would think is to kill or reimprison Odium.(And deal with the Singers somehow, probably without genocide or slavery)

Anyway, my brain had popped our the idea that if Odium was killed somehow, that the main characters have no idea how to shatter his power, so someone might pick it up. My only real thought on this was Moash for some reason - he seems pretty full of hate toward the lighteyes in particular. I don't have any evidence I've noticed that would point to this being even the slightest bit probable though. Aside from Moash being a tool and Odium being a tool, lol.

Or, maybe Odium pulls a Crowley, and then comes back for Round 2 in the second half.

Anyway, sorry if I rambled a bit. I've got a bit of insomnia so I've been awake waaaay too long, and all I've been doing is listening to Shardcasts.

Thoughts anyone?

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Imprisonment/semi-defeat of Odium does feel like the only way to continue the series. There’s no real way to defeat Odium (splinter/kill) that I can think of without getting really cosmere heavy in the second half, and while SA has been the most cosmere heavy book so far, I think Brandon is saving that for dragonsteel. So, I’m not sure how the first half is going to wrap up at all

I do think though that in the second half, there’s gonna be a lot more of Ashyn and Braise. I’m hoping the main characters will be able to go to the other planets in the system, Ashyn specifically. That way we can actually see what those planets were like. (Though now that I think about it, Brandon was planning to write a book set on Ashyn with a disease based magic system right? So we probably won’t get much Ashyn screen time, if any). 

So really, I have no ideas.

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56 minutes ago, Odeem said:

So I had been thinking the only real way to stop the conflict i would think is to kill or reimprison Odium.(And deal with the Singers somehow, probably without genocide or slavery)

Odium is still confined to the Rosharan system, albeit no longer to Braize. It should still be possible to reestablish the old cycle by winning this Desolation and a Herald going back to Braize. In fact strictly speaking it reads like one needs to be physically present on Braize, not in the hands of the Fused to be tortured. So they might send an expedition to Braize sheltering a Herald.

The other option is that they make a deal. Why would Roshar bleed alone for the Cosmere? Offer Odium a deal like Taravangian did, only that Dalinar can make a better offer.

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4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Odium is still confined to the Rosharan system, albeit no longer to Braize. It should still be possible to reestablish the old cycle by winning this Desolation and a Herald going back to Braize.

I think that its clear that part of Odium's intention when getting Moash to kill the Heralds is to prevent them from a Herald from doing just that. Personally, I think that he will succeed in killing of a  decent portion of them, and Dalinar will then create a new Oathpact, with some original heralds retaking their place, Shalash and Taln being two, as they have been confirmed to be the focus of two books in the second arc. I think that Kaladin will obviously end up becoming the herald of the windrunners, we might have Dalinar replace Ishar. Shallan could replace Shallash, if, as theorised, Shallash does become a dustbringer, in which case she would be the new herald of the dustbringers. Szeth would replace Nale, Taln remains as Herald of the Stonewards. Perhaps Jasnah and Renarin and Venli would also join. I hope that the edgedancer would be Adolin, purely because our only other named edgedancer is Lift and she's way too young to be tortured for 15 years.

In any case, I think there will be a new oathpact, all our favourite characters will go to Braize and get tortured for 15 years, and then the next five book arc can start with another desolation as one of them gives in. The plus side to this though is that these characters then become immortal, possibly have power upgrades, but ultimately are able to stick around for the rest of the cosmere.

6 hours ago, Odeem said:

Anyway, my brain had popped our the idea that if Odium was killed somehow, that the main characters have no idea how to shatter his power, so someone might pick it up. My only real thought on this was Moash for some reason - he seems pretty full of hate toward the lighteyes in particular. I don't have any evidence I've noticed that would point to this being even the slightest bit probable though. Aside from Moash being a tool and Odium being a tool, lol.

 I kind of dislike this theory mainly because I've assumed that Odium will be our big bad for the whole cosmere, and for someone else to take up that Shard would set Odium back in a major way. Yes, it would eventually have the same intent, though how long in would take for the Shards intent to overwhelm the host's intent is unclear, but I think more that 15 years, and that's all the time we have. Moreover, we know from harmony that being a Shard does not give you an immediate understanding of your abilities and the universe. If the new Odium no longer knows how to shatter shards,  and no longer has all his knowledge of the workings of other shards and their hosts, and other things like that, he's going to be put on the back foot against Shards that are already more powerful, such as Harmony, which would ultimately make him a much worse big bad for the whole cosmere arc. 

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I'm pretty sure Brandon has said that it's possible to kill the holder of Odium without splintering the power, so I think that's the route they'll go. 

 

7 hours ago, Odeem said:

Anyway, my brain had popped our the idea that if Odium was killed somehow, that the main characters have no idea how to shatter his power, so someone might pick it up. My only real thought on this was Moash for some reason - he seems pretty full of hate toward the lighteyes in particular. I don't have any evidence I've noticed that would point to this being even the slightest bit probable though. Aside from Moash being a tool and Odium being a tool, lol.

Yeah that's a pretty constant theory I've seen tossed around. I like it, but I also wouldn't mind another host. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Azarias said:

Yes, it would eventually have the same intent, though how long in would take for the Shards intent to overwhelm the host's intent is unclear, but I think more that 15 years, and that's all the time we have.

It think it also depends on whether or not the wielder WANTS to change the Intent to something slightly different. If Rayse dies and someone else full of hate takes up the Shard of Odium, they may welcome the overwhelming of the Intent. 

 

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16 hours ago, Azarias said:

 I kind of dislike this theory mainly because I've assumed that Odium will be our big bad for the whole cosmere

I think it's more likely that Odium is the big bad of the Stormlight Archive, and something or someone else is the  big bad of the Cosmere, if there is one.

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For some reason if anyone were to pick up the shard of Odium... I hope it would be Szeth. I can’t put a real reason into words... just seems fitting. 

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2 hours ago, RazeU said:

For some reason if anyone were to pick up the shard of Odium... I hope it would be Szeth. I can’t put a real reason into words... just seems fitting. 

I've thought before that Szeth would be an interesting one, because oaths seem binding on Shards to the point of currently trapping Odium. If Dalinar takes over for Honor, and Szeth for Odium, then its possible that even when intent becomes stronger that Szeth would still be bound to obey Dalinar thereby putting Odium on a leash of sorts.

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If they can build a diminishing fabrial large enough, maybe they could trap Odium that way. 

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Heh. I don't think there's a gem big enough!

Unless all of Roshar is secretly, under all the crem, a huge gem big enough to trap a Shard...

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3 hours ago, ftl said:

Unless all of Roshar is secretly, under all the crem, a huge gem big enough to trap a Shard...

Brandon has mentioned that Adonalsium played a large part in the formation of the Rosharan system...

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On 9/1/2020 at 10:04 PM, RazeU said:

For some reason if anyone were to pick up the shard of Odium... I hope it would be Szeth. I can’t put a real reason into words... just seems fitting. 

Szeth would be especially interesting since all he really feels on the surface is Odium, and he's becoming more balanced as he moves away from mass murders.

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I doubt Brandon will really kill him off in the first half, but, since I don't think Cultivation is going to take an ... active ... hand in proceedings, there is always the possibility that they THINK they killed him, and he just hides somewhere for awhile, before coming back and going nuts again. I feel that she is the only one in System(Other than maybe Hoid, but I doubt he would want to investigate just in case. Rayse does dislike him just a bit.) that could definitively tell anyone if he was really gone or not. Dalinar has bits of Honor's power, but we don't really have any clue as to what the entire scope of his abilities are, and neither does he. IF they killed him for real though, I could easily see Moash taking up the Shard and just ... focusing... the Intent toward his own goals. Kind of like the Loup-Garou in Fool Moon. Can't really control it, just has the ability to point it in a direction. He could do quite a bit of damage even with no real knowledge of how the powers function, Rashek is a perfect example of this. That would hinge entirely on Cultivation's reaction if anything did go down like Rayse being killed - I feel she could probably 'prune' anyone taking up the shard with little effort.

Do we know how she feels about someone potentially taking up Honor down the road? I know there's a WOB somewhere where Brandon says it is possible to 'repair' a shard but it is beyond Dalinar's powers to do so... maybe Cultivation could help? That would certainly make forging a new Oathpact easier. Odium would be more likely to enter into something if he actually feared losing in the long run, since I would imagine he'd think "Well, Tanavast had that power for a looong time and I still killed him."

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I love speculations!!

i think Odium’s shard-holder (Rayse) will be killed, and someone will take up Odium’s power. But I think this killing will free Odium as it’s Rayse who is bound, not the power. this frees up Odium to do his damage elsewhere, as he’s (Or she!) is learning how to be a “god”. 
 

I think it’s likely that the person who takes up the power of odium will do so as a sacrifice. Szeth is my guess. He’ll see it as  penance. And will swear to do “good”. But that won’t last.

the back 5 will be our fearless heroes (the ones who survive anyways) figuring out the Cosmere and how to join in to save other humans, all while dealing with the aftermath of war on Roshar.

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2 minutes ago, Bliev said:

I love speculations!!

i think Odium’s shard-holder (Rayse) will be killed, and someone will take up Odium’s power. But I think this killing will free Odium as it’s Rayse who is bound, not the power. this frees up Odium to do his damage elsewhere, as he’s (Or she!) is learning how to be a “god”. 
 

I think it’s likely that the person who takes up the power of odium will do so as a sacrifice. Szeth is my guess. He’ll see it as  penance. And will swear to do “good”. But that won’t last.

the back 5 will be our fearless heroes (the ones who survive anyways) figuring out the Cosmere and how to join in to save other humans, all while dealing with the aftermath of war on Roshar.

My only problem with that though, is IF Odium is going to be the Bad in the back half, why would he go back to Roshar? I can't think of a reason really, unless maybe the Dawnshards are Adonalsium related and important and they're stashed there.

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18 minutes ago, Odeem said:

My only problem with that though, is IF Odium is going to be the Bad in the back half, why would he go back to Roshar? I can't think of a reason really, unless maybe the Dawnshards are Adonalsium related and important and they're stashed there.

I don’t think Odium on Roshar will be the big bad in the back 5. I think it’s more likely that there will be more cosmere-wide implications and players then. 

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9 hours ago, Bliev said:

I don’t think Odium on Roshar will be the big bad in the back 5. I think it’s more likely that there will be more cosmere-wide implications and players then. 

I think that depends on a lot of factors. He doesn't, for example, have to be on Roshar at the START of the arc for it to be Roshar based.
 

Questioner (paraphrased)

How is Ashyn Earth-like given its orbit? It should be even less habitable than Roshar.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Rosharan system was manufactured for a specific purpose. The position of the moons isn’t stable and even the continent itself might eventually vanish.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)


Why Roshar was built or what the System's intended purpose could very well draw him back to Roshar if he found out something elsewhere. The purpose behind it could make it very cosmere-wide effects on the outcome as well. I do know it has also been theorized that Odium has some kind of ally in the form of another Shard, which means it could be a pair of Antagonists in the back end, as well. 

I'm hoping that the 'specific purpose' ends up being very important down the line and we find out all about it.
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On 8/31/2020 at 4:23 AM, Azarias said:

I think that its clear that part of Odium's intention when getting Moash to kill the Heralds is to prevent them from a Herald from doing just that. Personally, I think that he will succeed in killing of a  decent portion of them, and Dalinar will then create a new Oathpact, with some original heralds retaking their place, Shalash and Taln being two, as they have been confirmed to be the focus of two books in the second arc. I think that Kaladin will obviously end up becoming the herald of the windrunners, we might have Dalinar replace Ishar. Shallan could replace Shallash, if, as theorised, Shallash does become a dustbringer, in which case she would be the new herald of the dustbringers. Szeth would replace Nale, Taln remains as Herald of the Stonewards. Perhaps Jasnah and Renarin and Venli would also join. I hope that the edgedancer would be Adolin, purely because our only other named edgedancer is Lift and she's way too young to be tortured for 15 years.

In any case, I think there will be a new oathpact, all our favourite characters will go to Braize and get tortured for 15 years, and then the next five book arc can start with another desolation as one of them gives in. The plus side to this though is that these characters then become immortal, possibly have power upgrades, but ultimately are able to stick around for the rest of the cosmere.

 I kind of dislike this theory mainly because I've assumed that Odium will be our big bad for the whole cosmere, and for someone else to take up that Shard would set Odium back in a major way. Yes, it would eventually have the same intent, though how long in would take for the Shards intent to overwhelm the host's intent is unclear, but I think more that 15 years, and that's all the time we have. Moreover, we know from harmony that being a Shard does not give you an immediate understanding of your abilities and the universe. If the new Odium no longer knows how to shatter shards,  and no longer has all his knowledge of the workings of other shards and their hosts, and other things like that, he's going to be put on the back foot against Shards that are already more powerful, such as Harmony, which would ultimately make him a much worse big bad for the whole cosmere arc. 

I arrived at this exact theory independently of you and I'm irrationally disappointed that I'm not the only one who thought of it or the first to post about it. TBH I only come to this site every few weeks so for all I know there's a whole subset of fans who read this as the path Sanderson is taking us. 

So I'll just add a few prominent reasons I agree:

1) the good guys must counter what Moash is currently doing somehow. Heralds apparently matter a great deal so we must not be without them. 

2) a new and improved oathpact is a conclusive/satisfying enough wrap up to the 5 book arc, while still allowing for any number of problems to be introduced by book 6 to reintroduce conflict. 

3) The story of Fleet (which Kaladin reluctantly tells to Wit in WoR) seems to foreshadow Kal running very hard for a long distance, then dying in order to stop the storm, and being satisfied with that fate. That story is basically the cover letter for his application to be a Herald. These books are his resume.  

 

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On 9/6/2020 at 10:52 AM, Odeem said:

IF they killed him for real though, I could easily see Moash taking up the Shard and just ... focusing... the Intent toward his own goals. Kind of like the Loup-Garou in Fool Moon. Can't really control it, just has the ability to point it in a direction.

If we're using Dresden Files as an example, then I can imagine (Changes Spoiler)

Spoiler

somebody doing what Harry did post-taking on the Winter Knight mantle and allowing themselves to be killed once they've accomplished whatever they needed Odium's power for before it took them over completely. I don't remember if there is a concrete answer for how long it takes for the Intent of a Shard to overwhelm the host. Perhaps it's roughly 15 years, and the person who sacrificed themselves to contain Odium becomes the new Big Bad.

 

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@jamesbondsmith

If Moash took it, I don't think he would need to be 'overwhelmed' I think he'd just lean into it.

Dunno if Brandon would go the "overwhelmed" route though, I'm sure its been done several times but ya never know.

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Odium has not officially been freed from Braize yet (which is his prison), he is still mostly trapped on Braize, as Odium himself explains when talks to Dalinar. His greater influence on Roshar is likely a result of the Everstorm providing him with a link to Roshar, like how he talks to Taravangian when there is an Everstorm and so on. 

Edited by Sherwin94
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