Lopen's Third Ideal

[LuckyJim]

So, in the preview chapters of Rhythm of War, we've seen that Lopen is able to summon a Shardblade, meaning that he has currently sworn the third WIndrunner ideal. I'm really interested in this, because I think it would be neat to see what that process would be like for someone who isn't as troubled as someone like Kaladin or Teft, and I'm really hoping that we'll get to see this moment in Dawnshard, since Lopen will be a viewpoint character. The question is though, what would his third ideal look like?

The basic ideal we saw Kaladin swear is "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right", but I have a hard time seeing Lopen swear something like this because he doesn't really seem to hate anyone. It's possible he could just say those words anyway, but that doesn't seem to make sense. Radiant ideals are very personal, and reflect growth that is significant to the individual Radiant in some way, so I can't see Lopen swearing this ideal if it doesn't really mean anything to him. We also know that there is some degree of personalization in this ideal, as Teft's third ideal is different from Kaladin, so this will likely be the case for Lopen as well. Looking at Kaladin's internal thoughts leading up to him swearing the third ideal, the core idea of this ideal seems to be something along the lines of continuing to protect people even when it isn't convenient or easy to do so. To fight even when you feel you don't have the right to, because regardless people still need you, or to fight for people who you morally oppose, because it's the right thing to do. It's hard to think of what this could be for Lopen, there doesn't seem to be anyone he wouldn't want to protect, and he can keep an optimistic attitude even in the literal apocalypse, so there doesn't seem to be situations where it would be hard for him to act. But I think what's likely in this case is protecting people, even if that means he has to hurt others.

We haven't seen Lopen fight in the books yet, mostly because he only had one arm in the first two books, but we also didn't see much of him in the battle of Thaylen Field. The moment when he swears the second ideal is when he's comforting a wounded soldier in his own, Lopen way, rather than a dramatic moment of rescuing civilians (much to his displeasure) and I think that speaks a lot to Lopen as a character. I don't think Lopen is the type of person to want to hurt others, even if they are enemies, he always likes to see the best in any situation so perhaps his third ideal would be protecting others when he's forced into a situation where he can't.

[Xerun]

I will protect even those I hate; so long as a woman sees and she will say “I think you should kiss me now”

[Honorless]

Maybe Rysn would bite off more than she could chew (looks at Reshi Island incident), and Lopen would be like "I will save even those I don't particularly like, even when they brought it on themselves, so long as it is right"

[Infinity Sliver]

12 hours ago, Honorless said:

Maybe Rysn would bite off more than she could chew (looks at Reshi Island incident), and Lopen would be like "I will save even those I don't particularly like, even when they brought it on themselves, so long as it is right"

Honestly,i can very much see this happening

[Karger]

Well the principle involved is fairness.  Protection of others is their right not a privilege.  What it looks life for Lopen could be anything.  I hope it is a casual moment.  "We all have to look after each other guncho!"

[Truthless of Shinovar]

Of course, this would be rather difficult considering how far away Kaladin will be, so his squire status may temporarily be gone.

[USS bridge four]

"I'll protect every Gancho even the fools" I also hope we get it since Lopen basically wished into existence his bond unlike others. 

[+Bzhydack]

Lopen of course seems to like everybody, and Hatered seems to simply not fit with him, but maybe he hates someTHING?

Maybe sea? Or ships?

So Oath can be like: I will protect everybody, even in places I hate.

[GudThymes]

I'm going to take a contrarian viewpoint here. I think Lopen's 3rd ideal is going to be much easier for him to say than Kal or Teft. From those two it's clear that the focus is on protecting those you hate

Quote

I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right.    -Kaladin

Quote

I will protect those I hate. Even... even if the one I hate most is... myself.    -Teft

From what we've seen of Lopen, he doesn't seem to hate anyone or anything. Maybe his 3rd Ideal will simply be "I will protect those I hate, even though I don't hate anything". We know that some ideals are more challenging than others, and are more challenging for some than others. Maybe Lopen is just better suited for the 3rd Ideal than Teft or Kaladin are?

[Honorless]

9 hours ago, Truthless of Shinovar said:

Of course, this would be rather difficult considering how far away Kaladin will be, so his squire status may temporarily be gone.

Lopen is a full Radiant with an Honorspren named Rua

[Truthless of Shinovar]

31 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Lopen is a full Radiant with an Honorspren named Rua

Do we have it confirmed that’s he’s a full Radiant during the events of Dawnshard? I thought that Windrunner squires only gained knighthood after the third ideal, though I could be mistaken.

[ftl]

I think they get "knighthood" when they get their own spren - that's when they're no longer dependent on someone else for their powers.

[LuckyJim]

25 minutes ago, Truthless of Shinovar said:

Do we have it confirmed that’s he’s a full Radiant during the events of Dawnshard? I thought that Windrunner squires only gained knighthood after the third ideal, though I could be mistaken.

You become a full Radiant when you bond a spren, at the end of Oathbringer, Lopen has bonded Rua.

Skybreakers only become full Radiants at the third ideal, because highspren only bond Skybreaker squires when they reach that point.

[garlick]

Does it always have to be about personal growth. Because someone doesn't hate, they cant become a 3rd oath windrunner? Some people might just not need that lesson and when the time is right swear the oath. From what we have seen its been about personal growth each time, does that mean there are no exceptions?

[LuckyJim]

6 hours ago, garlick said:

Does it always have to be about personal growth. Because someone doesn't hate, they cant become a 3rd oath windrunner? Some people might just not need that lesson and when the time is right swear the oath. From what we have seen its been about personal growth each time, does that mean there are no exceptions?

That's a fair point, some people probably would be better suited to progress through certain ideals than others. In that case though, I'd still hope to see what happens when Lopen swears his third ideal, just to see what that would look like.

[+robardin]

Also remember how Lopen expressed the Second Ideal. Not in a combat situation, but while "protecting" a wounded amputee Thaylen from despair. Emotional protection.

He screams to the sky about how he'd begged and tried to level up during the battle, "when we were all like going to die", and the Stormfather replies, YOU WEREN'T QUITE READY.

That is a classic Lopen comedic scene, in a way, but the Stormfather doesn't pull practical jokes about Ideals. Lopen really wasn't ready, not until he found the right way, his way, to express it.

I hope we see him swear his Third Ideal in Dawnshard. Perhaps he will have to bolster someone's morale in a way he hates doing...?

[Groggins]

Even though The Lopen doesn't seem to hate anyone, most humans would still dislike people who are full of hate. 

Perhaps his 3rd ideal is "I will protect those who hate, so long as it is right" 

Also keep in mind we know almost nothing of The Lopen's past, we don't even really know how he lost his arm. Their might be something there, something that he keeps hidden that will be revealed in the novella. 

[LightReader]

I think it could actually go the other way around for Lopen, as in, “I will protect even those who hate me, so long as it is right”. Considering Rysn’s personality, I could see her finding The Lopen a pain to deal with. Or maybe he’ll be dealing with some other situation where he needs to protect people who are prejudiced against him in some way.

[ftl]

I like that idea! 

I think the core of the third ideal is that you swear to protect people who you really would rather not. It's that you can't pick and choose who you're protecting, it's everyone. And even though Lopen isn't gonna be hateful, that's still a tough ideal to swear for anyone. It's natural to want to make exceptions to that, and swearing it means both finding what those exceptions are for that person, and swearing not to make them anymore.

Could come in a situation where Lopen needs to protect someone who hates him. Seems less likely because who would hate The Lopen? ...but it might be someone who generically hates Radiants, and maybe has good reason to. There's some old people/spren around who might hold a grudge.

Or could come in a situation where protecting someone conflicts with Lopen's tasks. Maybe he's finally given an independent mission, a chance to prove himself. He goes off and is being successful, maybe has some stumbles but gets over them... ...but some storming idiot who Lopen doesn't even like goes and gets himself in danger, and Lopen has to choose to save that idiot and then accept the blame for failing his mission.

Or, since Lopen's version of protecting is more about aid and comfort after a battle than jumping in with spear and shield, it could be about that. That he needs to go around and help *everyone* that's injured and needs help, not picking and choosing the "easy" ones to help.

 

...ok, the one thing I wish doesn't happen is that little "so long as it is right" clause getting appended to the oath. Ever since Kaladin said that one, people seem to LOVE to guess that all sorts of oaths will end as "so long as it is right". It sounds like a catch-all kind of oath to do the right thing. I hope we don't see that repeated, because to me the whole point of the oaths is that you're swearing to do specific things, not a generic "I swear to Do Good!" It made sense for Kaladin in his situation, because of what his conflict was; he implicitly accepted that protecting Elhokar was the honorable/right thing to do, but was debating whether the benefits to the kingdom of killing him and having Dalinar as king, or just the need for justice/vengeance, outweighed that. But the point of the oath was that he should never have been making that tradeoff, he should have been protecting. I don't think it was a generic "swear to do the right thing" oath from Kaladin, and I don't think it would work well if repeated for other characters.

Edited September 7, 2020 by ftl

[LightReader]

That’s a good point since Teft’s third has a different ending too. So an alternative: “I will protect even those who hate me, even if they’re fools” 

[ftl]

Hah! Yes, that sounds like a perfect Lopen ideal.

[OTC]

Lopens deal seems to be wanting the powers for the benfits. The riches, the women, and the status. Up to the end of Oathbringer following Kaladins lead and embracing the ideals of protecting others has also been a path that has been the most beneficial to him.

I think his third oath will be putting protection of someone vs a personal reward or benefit - something that he really wants - and choosing to protect.

Something like 'I will protect others, even when if it comes at a personal cost.'

[Djerf]

Many have touched upon my own thoughts on the matter already but I'll chime in anyway. 

The third oath so far appears to be about doing things against your personal preference. 

Both

- I will protect those I hate, as long as it is right.

And 

- I won't scream at people when angry, as long as there is no need.

Follow the same pattern of, 

- I will "do a good deed" "even when I don't feel like it" as long as " I know I should".

 

So according to this Lopens oath should be 

-I will protect those " who I don't want to protect" as long as " I know I should".

Or translated

- I will protect ugly people as long as Stormblessed would want me to.

 

Following this model you don't have to hate someone or even feel strongly about someone. You could suffer from severe apathy and still get to three oaths as a Windrunner as long as there are situations when you really would rather not protect people and when you get confronted with it you chose to do the right thing.  Indeed you wouldn't even need to understand right and wrong as long as there is a moral guide for you to follow.