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Dai-Gonarthis Influence Theory


Bzhydack

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So, we know about many Unmade powers

1. Moelach can give limited futursight, its speculated that is able to pull informations from dying.

2. Nergaoul - battle rage.

3. Sia-Anat - can change Spren.

4. Ashertmarn - gluttony

5. Re-Sephir - mimcry

6. Ba-Ado-Mishram - comanding forces and creating Connection

7. Yelig-Nar - can bond with human, granting him all 10 Surges

But we dont know about powers of 2 Unmade, and one is complet mistery. We only have misterious Death Rattle about Dai-Gonartis taking away pain - what is really wierd, because this is also what Odium himself offers people. So:

Dai-Gonarthis is able to manipulate emotions of people (like Allomancy) and seed mistrust.

Why I think this?

So, what we know about Dai-Gonarthis. We know practicly 2 things:

1. He was somehow involve in Scouring of Aimia

2. He can "take someones pain"

Now we can put together this knowledge and Moashes appearence in Ch8. Moash is emotionless, he gave away his pain... and other emotions as well. Is completly hollow. And is able to somehow push away Syl from Kal, what is very similar what happend to Stormfather when Odium speaks with Dalinar. But I dont think that Odium is here, with Moash, this is not how he works - but Unmade can be here. Unmade with power to sooth someone emotions (Moash) and riot emotions in someone else (Kaladin). Kal was overwhelmed with Moashes words, much more that is "normal" even with his depresion. Of course, this can be because Moash is his friend and he sworn to protect him... or maybe Vyre now has additional shadow what follows him - Unmade. Also, many see this conversation as Moash trying to convince Kal to suicide - but i saw this as Moash trying to "DarthVader" Kal - by giving pain to Odium. If Dai-Gonarthis is on place, with Moash, can "take pain" immediately. In other case this need time to form Connection with Odium (like Dalinar or Moash).

Another part of theory is binded with Urithiru history in gems. In this place i want to thank @hoiditthroughthegrapevine, who collected all gem-archives in his topic about Ba-Ado-Mishram. Without this, probably i wasnt able to create this theory.

We know that Sibling withdraw from Urithiru, we dont know why. But we know that one effect of this was falling Protection against Unmade influence.

Drawer 3-11: Garnet (Lightweaver) CH 73

Quote

"I am worried about the tower's protections failing. If we are not safe from the Unmade here, then where?"

But witch one Unmade?

Moelach, Nergaoul, Ashertmarn are easy to recognise and rather easy to avoid - they are mindless, so they are atracted by certain things like other spren. Yelig-Nar also is easy, he need host to have full potential. Radiants know where Ba-Ado-Mishram is, Re-Sephir is tricky, but is possible to imprisoned her (maybe even she is improsoned, we dont know when this happend), and she is rather simple in action. Chemoarish was not seen 2000 years, even is not known what she is able to. This lives us two possibilities:

- Sia-Anat - of course dangerous, can change Spren, what can be very bad for Radiants. Maybe even she was there.

- Dai-Gonarthis

Its few times mention how Radiant are divided. How Orders dont trust each other anymore and argue all the time, especially Windrunners and Skybreakers. And this can be influence of Unmade - little touch rioting emotions. Radiants fear Sia-Anat, but another Unmade influence them subtly, with very big effect. Probably normaly Bondsmiths were able to counter Dai-Gonarthis rather easly, but now is only one Bondsmith, and divisions between Orders is too big even without Unmade Influence.

And now we go to Aimia.

We know that Dai-Gonarthis somehow influence Scouring. We also know from "Dawnshard" Prologue, that Scouring wasnt one event, it were series of wars. Probably civil wars on Islands. So is easy to understand how destroy land the easiest - influence powerfull people to chalange each other. Dai-Gonartis was influencing nobles, riots internal conflicts, what in place with 3 races probably existed, and this cause the destruction of Archipelago, especially when both sides used Soulcasters on massive scale

So we have it. I still dont know how to connect this with Dai-Gonarthis precursor, Semic God of  Sea Dagon and with his other name, Black Fisher. But maybe i will, with your help. What do you think?

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First off, I really like your theory about what Dai-Gornarthis' effect is, emotional manipulation, and how you've stitched together all known data points about Dai-Gornathis into a not just plausible but a likely theory.

One data point to maybe add is that Dai-Gonarthis is a likely candidate for the Unmade that we know from WoB (spoilered below) was influencing the Davar household. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Was Shallan's family, during her childhood, being influenced by an Unmade?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, yes.

Questioner

Was it the corrupting--

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO that, but yes, there is some external influence there. 

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

Talk about drama! The Davar household, with the cremling mutilating Nan Balat, the suicidal Wickim, the alcoholic and abusive Linn, the alcoholic and defeatist Jushu, the proto Skybreaker abandoner of his younger siblings Heleran, the murderous mother and of course the parent killing Shallan, was a fetted nest of tangled emotions. There's also the Ghostblood connection, it's a real possibility that one of their objectives at the Davar estates was to study the resident Unmade. My money's on the Black Fisher being the Unmade influencing the Davar's.

 

40 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

So we have it. I still dont know how to connect this with Dai-Gonarthis precursor, Semic God of  Sea Dagon and with his other name, Black Fisher. But maybe i will, with your help. What do you think?

I think this is pretty easy to explain, given your theory about Dai-Gornathis' effects. He's described as the fisher of men's souls because he uses his power of emotional manipulation to sow general dissension to create an environment where his target will swallow the Odious lure of giving up their pain. If the fish he's hunting gets away team Odium still has the plus of the general discord that his effect creates. Win win.

If your supposition about his effect is correct, then the dissension at the tower being attributable to him is very likely too.

Also I like your explanation for the scouring of Aimia, but I do wonder how easy it would be to manipulate the emotions of hive mind beings like the Sleepless. Could be that it was the Siah Aimians that were the target of the manipulation, and that were used to scour Aimia. Or maybe more likely Dai-Gonarthis just sowed the seeds of dissension and an Odious assault force came in to do the actual scouring.

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1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

- Dai-Gonarthis

Its few times mention how Radiant are divided. How Orders dont trust each other anymore and argue all the time, especially Windrunners and Skybreakers. And this can be influence of Unmade - little touch rioting emotions. Radiants fear Sia-Anat, but another Unmade influence them subtly, with very big effect. Probably normaly Bondsmiths were able to counter Dai-Gonarthis rather easly, but now is only one Bondsmith, and divisions between Orders is too big even without Unmade Influence.

Why didn't the Knights Radiant suspect Dai-Gonarthis? It is quite likely that they knew what the Unmade are capable of.

 

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Ooh, great catch, I love this theory.  There would have been a time shortly before the Recreance (when the gemstone archive was being written) where the functions of Urithiru were slowly failing but Radiants weren't aware of the extent.  It's a perfect window for tempers to run hot and the Skybreakers and Windrunners to nearly come to blows.

Being a psychic shield against Unmade influence likely played a huge factor in why the Radiants Orders met in Urithiru, same with the monarchs from around the Silver Kingdoms.

(Minus a functional Urithiru, Roshar desperately needs those aluminum lined hats that are coming into fashion on Scadrial to protect their emotions from bad influence!)

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2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Why didn't the Knights Radiant suspect Dai-Gonarthis? It is quite likely that they knew what the Unmade are capable of.

Its few answers to that, all equaly possible.

1. Is rather easy to detect emotional pushings/pullings, just normal people with proper training are able to do so, if they know what how. Radiants may grow overconfidence in all those years and stops looking into themselfs.

2. Radiants were too familiar with Siblings Protection so they grow careless.

3. Its enough to influence just few people in place where conflicts allready existed.

4. Dai-Gonarthis may not be active long time (like today) so Radiants stops worry about him.

I think also Dai-Gonarthis can influence people in various degrees, and is also atracted by conflicts and quarrels. May not be as inteligent as Sia-Anat or Ba-Ado-Mishram, but his primary ability is being undetected. Is stealthy, cunning Unmade. I very like assumption that he was atracted by Davar Family.

2 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

 

Also I like your explanation for the scouring of Aimia, but I do wonder how easy it would be to manipulate the emotions of hive mind beings like the Sleepless. Could be that it was the Siah Aimians that were the target of the manipulation, and that were used to scour Aimia. Or maybe more likely Dai-Gonarthis just sowed the seeds of dissension and an Odious assault force came in to do the actual scouring.

Can be. Siah Aimians seems to be very good target for mental manipulation, because they are partialy Cognitive Entities, naturaly Invested, so maybe they are somehow similar to hemalurgic constructs? Also, maybe remnant of this action is why humans are afraid of Siah.

Edited by Bzhydack
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@Bzhydack, this is such a good theory, do you have any theories about what Dai-Gonarthis was doing during the events of WoK, WoR or OB?

Just off the cuff, it seems odd to me that the Iri aren't part of the Coalition, and further that they are on the move, do you think this might have anything to do with DG? Or maybe that DG is parked in Tukar, and is actively provoking Tezim the God King, otherwise known as bat-rust-crazy Ishar.

Would be fun to look for subtle signs of emotional manipulation on a re-read.

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@hoiditthroughthegrapevine Tukar seems to be good candidate, Conflict there was burning many years. Its also not very far from Aimia (Is litealy extension of Archipelago!). Question is, doesnt Ishar recognise touch of the Unmade? Or is he so mad, that he cant look into himself and think: "This emotions shouldnt be as strong" Also, Tukari soldiers are described by Navani as "Crazy" - probably very zeelous.

Conflict isnt as destructive as drived by Thrill, but is long-burning. Like something subtly fueled.

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9 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Question is, doesnt Ishar recognise touch of the Unmade? Or is he so mad, that he cant look into himself and think: "This emotions shouldnt be as strong" Also, Tukari soldiers are described by Navani as "Crazy" - probably very zeelous.

Hmm, that's a good point.

Also as to the craziness of the Tukari soldiers, that could just be Ishar using his Bondsmith powers of Connection (wonder if he still has those powers without his honor blade?). Maybe he can share his craziness with his followers.

I find it strange that the Shin didn't join Dalinar's coalition, and they are sitting on a stockpile of Honor blades (if the surmise is true that their war of conquest was just an excuse to round up blades and plate then possibly a stockpile of shardblades and shardplate as well). Seems like a suitably strategic enough goal for Odium to deploy his agent of Dissension to keep those out of Dalinar's hands. 

Also, with Dai-Gonarthis' name being somewhat based on Dagon (who was depicted as a merman in ancient Asyrian art) and him being referred to as the Black Fisher, and also the fact that he was involved in the scouring of the islands of Aimia, I wonder if he is a water spren. Maybe his area of influence is limited to the coastal regions of Roshar. If so the places to look for his effects would be Shinovar, Iri, Rira, the Reshi Isles, the Purelake, Babatharnam, Marabethia, Herdaz, New Natanatan (the Puuli interlude), Thaylenah, Tukar, and Tashikk. Those are all the ones I remember being mentioned that have major coastal exposure, but the map of Roshar is spoilered below if anyone else has any ideas.

Spoiler

20200829_133401.thumb.jpg.b8252e6071998ad302904df2e25993d5.jpg

 

Edited by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
Typos, always typos
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This is just another interesting aside, spoilered below so you can read or ignore it.

Spoiler

The first Exoplanet (planet outside our solar system) ever purportedly imaged in the visible wavelengths, Fomalhaut b, was named Dagon. Fomalhaut is Arabic for "The mouth of the fish".

It's orbiting the 18th brightest star in the sky Fomalhaut (magnitude 1.16), which is in the constellation Piscis Austrinus, the Southern Fish, and it was imageable due to its orbital position corresponding to Fomalhaut's debris ring.

There's still debate about whether this is a planet or rather just the visible aftermath of the collision of two planetesimals (comets or asteroids), but pretty sweet that it was named after our buddy, the Mesopotamian fish god.

Here's a picture of the Famalhaut star system from the Hubble Space telescope with Dagon's relative brightness tracked over a couple of years time:

289900main_fomalhaut_actuallabel_HI.thumb.jpg.61005f9a0ce7d4bcd65c18c3ee910747.jpg

 

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On 30.08.2020 at 6:10 AM, dgreene196 said:

How do we know the Scouring wasn't one event from the Dawnshard Prologue?

You konw, I was sure about it, I dont knoow why, because now I cannot find it :wacko:

 

On 29.08.2020 at 10:43 PM, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Also, with Dai-Gonarthis' name being somewhat based on Dagon (who was depicted as a merman in ancient Asyrian art) and him being referred to as the Black Fisher, and also the fact that he was involved in the scouring of the islands of Aimia, I wonder if he is a water spren. Maybe his area of influence is limited to the coastal regions of Roshar. If so the places to look for his effects would be Shinovar, Iri, Rira, the Reshi Isles, the Purelake, Babatharnam, Marabethia, Herdaz, New Natanatan (the Puuli interlude), Thaylenah, Tukar, and Tashikk. Those are all the ones I remember being mentioned that have major coastal exposure, but the map of Roshar is spoilered below if anyone else has any ideas.

Yeah, I thought about it too, but this contradicts my theory, because it assumes Dai-Gonarthis influencing Urithiru, and this city is as far from coast as is possible. So is one or other.

Also, Unmade are not related very closly to related gods. Nergaoul share similarities with Nergal (god of sun-fire and war) but Ashertmarn is not very similar to Asherah (godess of coast and sea). Moelach also isnt very similar to Moloch.

But its possible that Dai-Gonarthis indeed lives in Sea, but on "other side" - in Shadesmar, he is buried under glass beads and is influencing people from there. Imagine this creepy look - blue-violet mist-tentacles emerging from between beads and entwining flames of human minds ;)

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9 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Yeah, I thought about it too, but this contradicts my theory, because it assumes Dai-Gonarthis influencing Urithiru, and this city is as far from coast as is possible. So is one or other.

Also, Unmade are not related very closly to related gods. Nergaoul share similarities with Nergal (god of sun-fire and war) but Ashertmarn is not very similar to Asherah (godess of coast and sea). Moelach also isnt very similar to Moloch.

But its possible that Dai-Gonarthis indeed lives in Sea, but on "other side" - in Shadesmar, he is buried under glass beads and is influencing people from there. Imagine this creepy look - blue-violet mist-tentacles emerging from between beads and entwining flames of human minds

Holy crap, that's awesome. The Kraken of the Shadesmar seas, I like it!

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  • 1 month later...

Sorry to double post, but @Bzhydack the recent revelation from Chapter 14 definitely confirms that Unmade have been active at the tower, even with the defenses working (making your theory far more probable):

Quote

“Yes,” Raboniel said. “The device preventing us from attacking them there can be inverted. We will need to lure the Elsecaller and the Bondsmith away. Their oaths may be advanced enough to push through the suppression, much as the Unmade have done at the tower in the past. With them gone, I can lead a force into Urithiru and seize it from within—and the Radiants will be unable to resist.”

With the Sibling malfunctioning on the eve of the Recreance, seems like that would be the perfect time for Unmade shenanigans. Send in Dai-Gonarthis and Sja-Anat.

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