The new fabrial

[Gderu]

Me and a friend were taking yesterday about the new fabrial that uses voidlight, and we came to the conclusion that it's metal might be chromium. 

If you noticed, in mistborn duralumin and aluminum don't seem to be exactly paired together - they seem to do things which are a bit different. Me and my friend came to the conclusion that maybe they both manipulate your Connection to Preservation. Duralumin increases it, while aluminum decreases it. We know that lerasium makes you Connected to Preservation, and that is what gives mistborn their powers.

Now, this makes sense for duralumin, and it makes sense that you cannot use allomancy while burning aluminum, but why then does aluminum permanently remove the metal reserves inside of you? I theorise that this is because it makes you not a Mistborn for a moment, and that any metal that you swallow before becoming a Mistborn cannot be used. In other words, if Elend were to swallow pewter before swallowing the lerasium bead, he would not have been able to burn that pewter. A point in this theory's favour is that sometimes, feruchemical powers and allomantic powers align, and affect roughly the same thing. Duralumin's feruchemical power is Connection.

So now, back to fabrials. What the fabrial seems to do is weaken the Connection between a radiant and his spren. This is why Syl could not manifest as a Blade, and why she remarked about feeling faded. Notice anything? This seems awfully similar to the effects of chromium, which is like aluminum but external, allowing a person to wipe someone else's metal reserves.

From the epigraphs, we can assume that all allomantic metals affect fabrials in roughly the same way. This is why I think that the voidlight fabrial was connected to chromium. Now, how could the voidbringers specify radiants and their spren as the targets? I don't know. I assume it has to do with the spren trapped inside the gemstone.

Now, what is the likely result of this? I think  discovering that fabrials can also be affected by chromium will help Navani understand what chromium does, and that should open the door to understanding the entire quartet of aluminum, duralumin, chromium, and nicrosil, as well as help them understand Connection, and beginning their journey to cosmere awareness.

Thoughts?

[Karger]

Well this really belongs in the other sub thread but that aside.

1 hour ago, Gderu said:

I theorise that this is because it makes you not a Mistborn for a moment, and that any metal that you swallow before becoming a Mistborn cannot be used. In other words, if Elend were to swallow pewter before swallowing the lerasium bead, he would not have been able to burn that pewter. A point in this theory's favour is that sometimes, feruchemical powers and allomantic powers align, and affect roughly the same thing. Duralumin's feruchemical power is Connection.

What about metal poisoning?  Your metals are not just unusable they must vanish somehow. 

1 hour ago, Gderu said:

What the fabrial seems to do is weaken the Connection between a radiant and his spren

That is one possibility.

[Gderu]

16 minutes ago, Karger said:

Well this really belongs in the other sub thread but that aside.

Oh whoops, where should it go? I posted it here and not in general cosmere because of spoilers for RoW.

16 minutes ago, Karger said:

What about metal poisoning?  Your metals are not just unusable they must vanish somehow. 

Are we sure that mistborn don't actually get metal poisoning after burning aluminum? We have only seen that one time in which Vin burned Aluminum.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Gderu

[Gilphon]

I really think that resemblance to chromium is purely superficial. Like chromium would remove the Stormlight from within Kaladin and the Voidlight from within the Fused, and only affects things directly in contact with it. The Fabrial surpassed the connection between Syl and Kaladin, didn't affect the Fused at all, and covering a wide area. Like there's basically nothing in common with chromium aside from the general anti-magic thing.

And also there's no real reason to believe that they're discovered chromium in Roshar. That stuff isn't exactly easy to get ahold of without modern refining techniques. 

[Karger]

16 minutes ago, Gderu said:

Oh whoops, where should it go? I posted it here and not in general cosmere because of spoilers for RoW.

Here

RoW Lore, Magic, and Cosmere Discussion

16 minutes ago, Gderu said:

Are we sure that mistborn don't actually get metal poisoning after burning aluminum? We have only seen that one time in which Vin burned Aluminum.

Technically no but this subject has been the source of a lot of consternation on Brandon's side so we don't have a canonical answer yet as to what happens to other metals.

Quote

Questioner

Aluminum, when you burn aluminum, does it actually destroy the metals or just take away their power?

Brandon Sanderson

It destroys the metals.

Questioner

Same with chromium?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Questioner

So it actually gets rid of the metals?

Brandon Sanderson

It actually trans--  It does a--  matter, energy, investiture are the same things in the cosmere.  You have some sort of transfer happening relating to those things.

Questioner

The question sort of relates to metal poisoning--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, you would not get metal poisoning after that.

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

 

[Honorless]

Hmm I don't know, the spren also depends on the Connection of the Nahel Bond between themselves and their Radiant. Kaladin himself described the effect as feeling more like suppression not just having his Stormlight leeched. He couldn't access Stormlight, his Surges or use Syl as Shardblade.

I don't think it was Investiture leeching, or weakening of Connection. I'm thinking it was Identity based. The ability to use Investiture systems is because of one's Spiritweb being altered.

I think the spears that the Heavenly Ones used were simply leeching Investiture from their description.

 

@Karger, here's a better WoB for that:

Quote

Questioner 1

Does aluminum actually make the metals disappear, like, be metabolized? Or does it just cut the Spiritual connection?

Brandon Sanderson

So... I haven't actually canonized that... I've gone back and forth. For a while, I said it got rid of them. And there may even be... But the more I thought about that, the more it doesn't make much sense.

Questioner 1

It doesn't. Especially the way that duralumin works, it doesn't really make sense.

Brandon Sanderson

And so, I've been kind of pushing the other way. Since I haven't said it in-world, it's not truly canon, but I believe I've answered other fans saying that it burns them all away in a flash, and we might need it to do that, for future things. So, I'm undecided.

Questioner 2

It needs to get rid of them, but a path to sever the connection at the same time.

Brandon Sanderson

One of the big problems is, if it only severs the connection and leaves the metals, than you have heavy metal poisoning from some of the metals.

Questioner 1

But if it makes them burn away, that doesn't work the same way as duralumin. Duralumin only burns the ones you're burning.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. I kinda have to err back on the side of "it gets rid of them," just we don't have to deal with metal poisoning, but I've kind of been wavering a little bit, thinking, "Is there a better way to explain this."

LTUE 2020 (Feb. 15, 2020)

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by Honorless

[Gderu]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Technically no but this subject has been the source of a lot of consternation on Brandon's side so we don't have a canonical answer yet as to what happens to other metals.

 

The other WoB quoted below seems to imply that aluminium does affect Connection like me and my friend thought, and that they have the metals disappear in order to not give metal poisoning to everyone that burns it. So this basically means that everything works like I thought, other than the metal poisoning which doesn't have to do with my theory. So it's still possible!

[Karger]

10 minutes ago, Gderu said:

The other WoB quoted below seems to imply that aluminium does affect Connection like me and my friend thought

Quote

Questioner 2

It needs to get rid of them, but a path to sever the connection at the same time.

Brandon Sanderson

One of the big problems is, if it only severs the connection and leaves the metals, than you have heavy metal poisoning from some of the metals.

Questioner 1

But if it makes them burn away, that doesn't work the same way as duralumin. Duralumin only burns the ones you're burning.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. I kinda have to err back on the side of "it gets rid of them," just we don't have to deal with metal poisoning, but I've kind of been wavering a little bit, thinking, "Is there a better way to explain this."

11 minutes ago, Gderu said:

So this basically means that everything works like I thought, other than the metal poisoning which doesn't have to do with my theory. So it's still possible!

He really doesn't know yet but it does have to get rid of them.  Severing connection will in of itself not work.  Also Syl and Kaladin were still connected.  Their bond does not appear to have been damaged or Syl would have suffered.

[Gderu]

1 hour ago, Gilphon said:

I really think that resemblance to chromium is purely superficial. Like chromium would remove the Stormlight from within Kaladin and the Voidlight from within the Fused, and only affects things directly in contact with it. The Fabrial surpassed the connection between Syl and Kaladin, didn't affect the Fused at all, and covering a wide area. Like there's basically nothing in common with chromium aside from the general anti-magic thing.

And also there's no real reason to believe that they're discovered chromium in Roshar. That stuff isn't exactly easy to get ahold of without modern refining techniques. 

Sorry for the double post btw

I think that the fabrial was made specifically to target radiants. If you notice, other fabrials can target specific people/things (like Navani's emotion detecting fabrial). There's no reason to think you couldn't target a spren bond as well.

The part about chromium is exactly why I think this theory is even more likely. Odium is sure to know things the radiants do not, and will therefore be able to make fabrials they don't know. This is exactly a stepping stone to better knowledge of fabrials.

[Gderu]

14 minutes ago, Karger said:

He really doesn't know yet but it does have to get rid of them.  Severing connection will in of itself not work.  Also Syl and Kaladin were still connected.  Their bond does not appear to have been damaged or Syl would have suffered.

It doesn't completley sever the connection, but it does weaken it. I would imagine the strength of the weakening would be a factor of how much stormlight is in the gem. Fabrials aren't exactly like allomancy, they only follow the general same principles. For example, bronze does not search for allomancy, but it can look for people as well (like in the Rysn interlude).

[Karger]

12 minutes ago, Gderu said:

It doesn't completley sever the connection, but it does weaken it

Even weakening their connection has consequences.  We see this in WoR.

[Innovation]

I think it is a diminishing Fabrial that diminishes Spren. As in, you won’t see many Spren near the Fabrial, and Nahel Spren are pushed away. 

[+Oltux72]

6 hours ago, Gderu said:

If you noticed, in mistborn duralumin and aluminum don't seem to be exactly paired together - they seem to do things which are a bit different. Me and my friend came to the conclusion that maybe they both manipulate your Connection to Preservation. Duralumin increases it, while aluminum decreases it.

Aluminium works on Investiture in general. It need not come from Preservation. And we have a WoB that duraluminium would also work on other forms of Investiture.

6 hours ago, Gderu said:

We know that lerasium makes you Connected to Preservation, and that is what gives mistborn their powers.

It is not an ordinary metal.

6 hours ago, Gderu said:

Now, this makes sense for duralumin, and it makes sense that you cannot use allomancy while burning aluminum, but why then does aluminum permanently remove the metal reserves inside of you?

Because it works the same way as chromium works and duraluminium is paired with nicrosil.

6 hours ago, Gderu said:

I theorise that this is because it makes you not a Mistborn for a moment, and that any metal that you swallow before becoming a Mistborn cannot be used. In other words, if Elend were to swallow pewter before swallowing the lerasium bead, he would not have been able to burn that pewter. A point in this theory's favour is that sometimes, feruchemical powers and allomantic powers align, and affect roughly the same thing. Duralumin's feruchemical power is Connection.

Well, how does a Mistborn snap under those assumptions?

6 hours ago, Gderu said:

So now, back to fabrials. What the fabrial seems to do is weaken the Connection between a radiant and his spren. This is why Syl could not manifest as a Blade, and why she remarked about feeling faded. Notice anything? This seems awfully similar to the effects of chromium, which is like aluminum but external, allowing a person to wipe someone else's metal reserves.

Kaladin's reserves were not wiped. Immediately as the fabrial is deactivated he sighs and puffs out Stormlight. His abilities were blocked but his reserves unaffected.

4 hours ago, Gilphon said:

And also there's no real reason to believe that they're discovered chromium in Roshar. That stuff isn't exactly easy to get ahold of without modern refining techniques. 

Odium knows about it for sure. So may the Unmade. If you have Soulcasters it would be available in small quantities.

[Knight of Iron]

Instantly when I saw what the new fabrial could do I thought "chromium" and instantly checked these forums to see if anyone had the same idea. And here you are.

[Gderu]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Because it works the same way as chromium works and duraluminium is paired with nicrosil.

Chromium is just aluminum but external, but there also has to be some relationship between aluminum and duralumin - they are both in the same quartet, and are both internal. The only difference is that one pulls while the other pushes. Because of that, it would make sense of they were to affect the same thing, or at least two similar things (like steel and iron).

Quote

Well, how does a Mistborn snap under those assumptions?

What do you mean? I don't understand why mistborn snapping would be affected by the assumptions.

[Gderu]

2 hours ago, Knight of Iron said:

Instantly when I saw what the new fabrial could do I thought "chromium" and instantly checked these forums to see if anyone had the same idea. And here you are.

Glad to see someone else had the same thoughts, although it took us around 20 minutes of discussion to get there.

[+Oltux72]

41 minutes ago, Gderu said:

Chromium is just aluminum but external, but there also has to be some relationship between aluminum and duralumin

There is. They work on your metal reserves.

41 minutes ago, Gderu said:

- they are both in the same quartet, and are both internal. The only difference is that one pulls while the other pushes. Because of that, it would make sense of they were to affect the same thing, or at least two similar things (like steel and iron).

Those quadrants have pairs with little connection. The relationship between gold and electru is loose. As is frankly, tin and pewter. Taking steel and iron is cherry-picking.

Now, if you are going for symmetry, then chromium will have to work like it does work. So you can have either chrome and aluminium work one way and duraluminium and nicrosil work another way, or you have exceptions.

41 minutes ago, Gderu said:

What do you mean? I don't understand why mistborn snapping would be affected by the assumptions.

You recognize that an allomancer has snapped by him or her burning metals. This happened while they were beaten up. So the metal must hae been ingested before the allomantic ability arose.

[Gderu]

9 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Those quadrants have pairs with little connection. The relationship between gold and electru is loose. As is frankly, tin and pewter. Taking steel and iron is cherry-picking.

I agree that others are not as similar as steel and iron, but imo the theory makes the relationship between duralumin and aluminum much simpler, and it also makes it more general. Otherwise, how would it interact in a fabrial? It can't just be "erases metals", otherwise aluminum would not work for fabrials. 

Quote

You recognize that an allomancer has snapped by him or her burning metals. This happened while they were beaten up. So the metal must hae been ingested before the allomantic ability arose.

Why not just beat them up, then give them metals to check if they are now allomancers?

Edited August 27, 2020 by Gderu

[+Oltux72]

15 minutes ago, Gderu said:

I agree that others are not as similar as steel and iron, but imo the theory makes the relationship between duralumin and aluminum much simpler, and it also makes it more general.

Well, not really. I am sorry, I have to disagree. Aluminium works in all the Cosmere's systems. Bringing in Preservation specifically makes things harder.

We have actually seen only one instance of aluminium being burned. Yet we can be pretty sure it takes all your metals. Otherwise it would be a pure choice to disarm a Mistborn. But we have seen Leechers work. In particular a Leecher cannot interfere with Feruchemy. While leeching a Threnodite weapon works. Keyed Investiture keeps working. That is important. It is not just the case that metal minds are safe from being leeched. No, you can actively use them.

Brandon's explanation is that it removes alien Investiture. That raises the question, what is alien? I suspect it is no accident that aluminium stores Identity when used in feruchemy.

15 minutes ago, Gderu said:

Otherwise, how would it interact in a fabrial? It can't just be "erases metals", otherwise aluminum would not work for fabrials. 

We have no indication that aluminium works in a fabrial. That is kind of circular reasoning. The novel fabrial the Fused used may use chrome or copper or ...
We have evidence that aluminium affects fabrials, but in the general blocking sense it always has. It is no different from having aluminium sheets in your soothing parlors.

15 minutes ago, Gderu said:

Why not just beat them up, then give them metals to check if they are now allomancers?

Because their motivation for using the metal is larger while they are being beaten.

[Dancer]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

 

minium being burned. Yet we can be pretty sure it takes all your metals. Otherwise it would be a pure choice to disarm a Mistborn. But we have seen Leechers work. In particular a Leecher cannot interfere with Feruchemy. While leeching a Threnodite weapon works. Keyed Investiture keeps working. That is important. It is not just the case that metal minds are safe from being leeched. No, you can actively use them.

 

We don't actually know this. Brandon has RAFO'd when ever someone asks him about leeching metalminds. 

 

Questioner

Could a Leecher take away stores in a metalmind?

Brandon Sanderson

You’ll have to find out.  That’s a RAFO.

there is also a WoB that suggest that it could be done.

 

Sirce Luckwielder (paraphrased)

Can aluminum be used to destroy a Feruchemist's metalmind if the person burning aluminum were to cut his hand and place it on the metalmind?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said that cutting the hand would probably not be enough, but that I was on the right track.

If Aluminium can destroy a metalmind that is in your body then it's safe to assume that Chromium can also leech them.  

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Dancer said:

We don't actually know this. Brandon has RAFO'd when ever someone asks him about leeching metalminds. 

In Bands of Mourning at the end Waxillium attacks his uncle, whoin turn leeches away his metals, but he still defeats him by feruchemically increasing his weight to the point they both crash through the floor.

 

[+Bzhydack]

15 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

In Bands of Mourning at the end Waxillium attacks his uncle, whoin turn leeches away his metals, but he still defeats him by feruchemically increasing his weight to the point they both crash through the floor.

Its possible that this is depending on Konwledge of Leecher. Allomancy is easy to detect and easy to target, but Feruchmy:

1 has other characteristic (is not "crude" external power, its internal mostly)

2 has to be targeted in specific moment

3 can give access to power practicly in unlimited amount while Leecheing can work only with limited speed.

[Halyo_Alex]

5 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

2 has to be targeted in specific moment

to be precise, are you referring to when the feruchemist is tapping or storing the power?

[Dancer]

17 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

In Bands of Mourning at the end Waxillium attacks his uncle, whoin turn leeches away his metals, but he still defeats him by feruchemically increasing his weight to the point they both crash through the floor.

 

We don't know if he kept leeching after he felt Wax's metals disappear. He might have stopped after he felt they were gone. Also like what others have said above the more Invested you are the more you will resist other Investiture. When Wax drained all his metalminds at once not only would it be to much to leech in an instant, it would also make him more resistant to being leeched in the first place.  

[+Bzhydack]

13 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

to be precise, are you referring to when the feruchemist is tapping or storing the power?

I think tapping.