Moash Redemtion

[king of nowhere]

moash had a moral code. but after a while he gave up trying.

particularly telling is that he recognizes that kaladin is good, and he's intentionally trying to destroy him. to get him to stop trying. heck, he tried to kill kaladin in book 2. for no other reason than to go on with his vengeance.

Edited August 29, 2020 by king of nowhere

[Potus]

I feel like if the theory that The Black Fisher is influenceg him is correct, then the only way for him to be redeamed is by removing that Unmade. Once gone, maybe he comes to some senses and is less "non of this is my fault". 

I do not wish for this, I generally don't like redemption arcs. 

[Spinner16]

3 hours ago, HipsterStick said:

I agree with this. However, here’s an idea-

What if Moash survives Stormlight- and goes on to become a Cosmere aware character? And tries to earn his redemption there?

Consider: it’s book 5 (or book 10, I don’t know where it would fit better) of the series. There’s this big climactic battle between Kaladin and Moash. By the end of it, something happens to Dai-gonarthis (who I am convinced has something to do with Odium’s apathy-inducing aura) or maybe Odium himself, and all of Moash’s pain returns to him. He breaks down and begs Kaladin to kill him- but Kaladin leaves him and just walks away. Moash is left to deal with the accumulation of all of his past misdeeds and confront his shame.

Then comes the epilogue. It’s Wit as usual, making his normal fancy speech- only this time, it’s not evident who he is talking to for the whole chapter. Until, that is, when he gets to the end, and finishes with some inspiring statement about redemption. And then, he extends to Moash (who has just been revealed as the person he’s been talking to) the opportunity of redemption.

From there, Moash works tirelessly to help the Cosmere fight Odium, and to make it a better place. So instead of getting a rushed, slightly forced redemption arc, Moash gets a LOT of time to work out his problems (behind the scenes, but still happening).

Plus, then he can show up if there’s a big Cosmere finale.

 

 

I absolutely love the vision of Kaladin just walking away. Wit chilling with Moash would also be really funny. I could definitely see Brandon creating the most hateable character imaginable and then letting him stick around for the rest of the cosmere.

[I Am A Fish]

Right now I dislike Moash*

That doesn't mean he can't be redeemed. I think Moash is an incredibly interesting character, and compared to Dalinar, or Szeth's** kill count he could be worse. I find it interesting to look at Moash's actions from his own eyes. On one hand, he's denying his responsibility, something I find despicable. On the other hand, his actions are clearly motivated, and with a bit of the Unmades influence, I can see, and not hate him for his actions.

 

 

*Still like the character idea

**I KNOW THIS CONNECTION HAS BEEN MADE, I FEEL TERRIBLE! 

Edited September 1, 2020 by I Used To Be A Fish
Me Being Stoopid

[Shardsplinter]

On 29/8/2020 at 10:07 AM, HipsterStick said:

I agree with this. However, here’s an idea-

What if Moash survives Stormlight- and goes on to become a Cosmere aware character? And tries to earn his redemption there?

Consider: it’s book 5 (or book 10, I don’t know where it would fit better) of the series. There’s this big climactic battle between Kaladin and Moash. By the end of it, something happens to Dai-gonarthis (who I am convinced has something to do with Odium’s apathy-inducing aura) or maybe Odium himself, and all of Moash’s pain returns to him. He breaks down and begs Kaladin to kill him- but Kaladin leaves him and just walks away. Moash is left to deal with the accumulation of all of his past misdeeds and confront his shame.

Then comes the epilogue. It’s Wit as usual, making his normal fancy speech- only this time, it’s not evident who he is talking to for the whole chapter. Until, that is, when he gets to the end, and finishes with some inspiring statement about redemption. And then, he extends to Moash (who has just been revealed as the person he’s been talking to) the opportunity of redemption.

From there, Moash works tirelessly to help the Cosmere fight Odium, and to make it a better place. So instead of getting a rushed, slightly forced redemption arc, Moash gets a LOT of time to work out his problems (behind the scenes, but still happening).

Plus, then he can show up if there’s a big Cosmere finale.

 

 

Looooved this idea. This way we can enjoy Moash( at least I do) as a villain for the Stormlight series at the same time he's being build up as a major Cosmere player. I could totally see a redeemed but still very troubled Moash on Kelsier's new crew. BTW that epilogue scene description with Hoid's monologue to Moash gave me literal chills.

 

[Harbour]

I kinda want him to not be redeemed but going down in better way than Amaram. I dont want Moash to die just in simple combat, pierced by arrow, throwing angry tantrums.

I want his death to be ironic and symbolic, reflecting the path he chose.

While i like well written redemption arcs, i admit, that im tired of redeemed villains. In our age i feel there is not enough well written motivated villains who, well, stay villain till the very end. Sometimes redemption simply doesnt fit the villain's arc and set off traits.

Moash right now still can be redeemed for sure. But i kinda want him to dive farther into villainy and become Kaladin's nemesis, and end up dying alone.

[Robot]

8 minutes ago, Harbour said:

I kinda want him to not be redeemed but going down in better way than Amaram. I dont want Moash to die just in simple combat, pierced by arrow, throwing angry tantrums.

I want his death to be ironic and symbolic, reflecting the path he chose.

While i like well written redemption arcs, i admit, that im tired of redeemed villains. In our age i feel there is not enough well written motivated villains who, well, stay villain till the very end. Sometimes redemption simply doesnt fit the villain's arc and set off traits.

Moash right now still can be redeemed for sure. But i kinda want him to dive farther into villainy and become Kaladin's nemesis, and end up dying alone.

To be fair we got some small crumps of Amaram feeling guilty deep down.

 

I think that Brandon is making him take more and more steps downward and I can definitely see him going even deeper. I wouldn't mind him getting a redemption arc at all, maybe in the back 5, but I don't think that's where his story is going. I see him as a parallel to Kaladin way too much.

[Vin_4_da_Win]

Alot of people say that Moash is beyond redemption, but I don't think that is true.  There are certainly alot more people worse than Moash, like old Dalinar, and Dalinar is now in the process of being redeemed.

However, I don't think he will have a redemption arc.  His path seems to run intentionally parallel to Kaladin, who has been set on the path of improvement since Way of Kings.  Both Moash and Kaladin are conscientious people who seek to help others.  They are both incredibly gifted fighters with the passion to use their combat skills in defense of others.  They were wronged in the past by high society and both are consumed by those past misdeeds.  However Kaladin choose the path of honor.  Moash allowed his thirst for vengeance to twist him, like Kaladin almost did.

I think Moash's arc will emphasize what Kaladin would have become if he let his hatred consume him.  While Kaladin rises, Moash will fall.

[king of nowhere]

59 minutes ago, SylxKaladin said:

  However Kaladin choose the path of honor.  Moash allowed his thirst for vengeance to twist him, like Kaladin almost did.

 

Kaldin choose the path of Honor. Moash choose the path of Odium.

[+robardin]

Define "redeemed".

I think he will have a different arc than Amaram - get puffed up, fall in with Odium to lose the pain of having made some choices he felt pained about, take up Shards against Dalinar and Kaladin, and then to get killed while screaming NOOOOOO I REGRET NOTHING while flinching.

The obvious reason being, we already saw that arc in Amaram, yeah?

On the other hand, it seems really hard for Kaladin and the others in Bridge Four and on Team Dalinar to just "get over" what Moash did. Attempting to kill Kaladin, "my captain forever", with his own rightful and gifted-to-him Shards; attempting to, and later succeeding, in killing Elhokar, while helping Odium's forces seize Kholinar; murdering Jezrien and taking up his Honorblade; and most lately, killing Roshone and two other bystander Hearthstone citizens in cold blood while nearly talking to Kaladin into suicide.

On the other other hand, based on that "filmy" version of himself that we see still exists within him (likely as a self-image) from Renarin's burst of Light, he's not irredeemably un-Radiant. If he could ever get out from under Odium taking his pain.

I really like the idea put forward in another thread, that perhaps he will join up with Venli to form a Third Faction, the Listeners, independent of Odium yet also rejecting the rule of Alethkar and the other Kingdoms of Men that Dalinar ultimately still represents. The New Rosharans!

[Singer]

I don't want Moash redeemed. He could be, but I'd rather see where else his story could go. I love having an antagonist who you can really see where he is coming from. Like, yeah, the system is messed up. Light eyes have been oppressors, that's real. His POV makes sense, even if I don't agree 100%, I get it.

Did I want to crush him with my bare hands when he basically tried to convince Kaladin, the friend he betrayed, that he should go kill himself? Yes. Yes I did. 

What I predict from the events of chapter 8: Kaladin will have to undergo some real emotional care so he can embrace life with all it's pain. He'll have to learn to ride the lows that come with depression as best he can. Then he will be thrown into another  confrontation with Moash, this time with more hope in his soul and he'll be able to face him from a place of emotional strength. And then in that moment, swear the 4th oath. It would be a nice recall to facing Moash and being unable to swear it in OB.