Moash Redemtion

[Karnage]

Will Moash be redeemed?

[Spinner16]

Moash's fall from grace has been such a protracted thing that it would be a waste to have him get redeemed. I absolutely love him as a villain and I'd hate to lose him in any way other than in an incredible climactic battle with Kaladin.

[LuckyJim]

I kind of hope so, I'd like to see a character that recognizes that humans aren't really all that great, and ultimately throws their lot in with the singers to help them rebel against Odium and the Fused. You can kind of see that being set up in Oathbringer, when Moash meets Paladar, and helps Sah and Khen's group in the Fused prison camps. One recurring theme in Stormlight seems to be that no matter what you've done, you can still become better (even Gaz became a squire) and I don't think anything Moash has done really puts him past the point of no return. Obviously, he'd need to have a moment of self realization break Odium's influence, but I think it would cool if he gets a moment where he decides "the world is corrupt, but that doesn't mean I have to be".

That being said, after chapter 8 it seems like Moash isn't really headed in that direction (for some reason Renarin's vision makes me find it less likely to happen) and I think I might have just been projecting my own ideas on Moash's character.

[ZenBossanova]

Prediction: Book 5 will end with the Shard Odium being passed from Rayse to Moash. 

He will be the new Odium. 

[king of nowhere]

brandon can write a character so loathsome, it cannot be possibly redeemed.

and then he can write a satisfying redemption arc for it.

that said, i don't want moash to be redeemed. i want him to die, and not even in a climatic battle with kaladin. i want him to waste away in the most anticlimatic possible way. he choose nothingness, and he should get it.

[Subvisual Haze]

If Dalinar and Szeth can seek redemption from their mountain of corpses so can Moash.  His character shift from the last book is so dramatic that I'm pretty sure his mind is under heavy influence from an Unmade (some have hypothesized Dai-gonarthis, which seems like a good guess).  Hopefully Renarin was able to shock him into starting some self-reflection.

I think he has to be redeemed/forgiven, even if its something as simple as a last-second change of heart followed by a heroic sacrifice.  If he doesn't, Kaladin is going to be permanently broken.

[+Oltux72]

Does he need to be redeemed? If you want to end this war without a terrible slaughter, you will need to make some truly unpalpatable compromises. Among them will certainly be an agreement to leave each others forces alone for actions prior to the peace.

[LuckyJim]

30 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Does he need to be redeemed? If you want to end this war without a terrible slaughter, you will need to make some truly unpalpatable compromises. Among them will certainly be an agreement to leave each others forces alone for actions prior to the peace.

I'm of this mind too. I don't think Moash is going to come back to the human side, Odium or not, seeing Paladar at the prison camp would have made him think the whole "eye color" system has broken humanity beyond repair. I think having Moash decide to work toward a future instead of total destruction would be good enough for a redemption arc.

[Honorless]

Oi, what about the rest of us who like Moash as he is?

Me likey Moash. Me likey Moash going face stabby-stabby. Me likey angry Moash and me likey nihilist Moash.

[Zelly]

Redemption is a powerful thing that resonates with people. It's also freaking difficult.

Nobody talks about Szeth, but wow he murdered a lot of innocent people for less reasons than Moash.  I'm more curious about his redemption arc since it's less about redemption and more about vengeance on those who caused him to need redemption?

[Master Silver]

Compare Amarain and Moash. Who is worse? Compare and contrast their crimes. If Moash doesn't believe in Journey before destination, then it is logical that since the humans don't deserve the land and that they are gonna lose, the merciful thing would be to put them all out of their misery. A couple of key differences, Moash seemingly will not raise his hand against Kaladin again (he could be lying, but we don't know). Two Moash, did take compassion on the Singers that were being beaten and defend them. Three if Odium or an unmade is influencing Moash, their still seems to be a lot of guilt and pain, and part of him that is conflicted about not standing with Kaladin. When Kaladin asked Amaran why do you still hurt? Anyway, I'd very much like to see Moash pull a St. Peter rather than continue along the lines of Judas if you know what I mean.

[+Oltux72]

On 26/08/2020 at 5:08 PM, LuckyJim said:

I'm of this mind too. I don't think Moash is going to come back to the human side,

That is kind of the point. If the Knights Radiant keep this about human vs. Parsh, this will end bloodily. It is in their interest to make this Honor's heirs vs. Odium. That would need to include a sweet offer to the Parsh and their allies to switch sides.

4 hours ago, Zelly said:

Nobody talks about Szeth, but wow he murdered a lot of innocent people for less reasons than Moash.

Like it or not, on Roshar just following orders is a perfectly valid reason. Honor even demanded it.

[king of nowhere]

2 hours ago, Master Silver said:

Compare Amarain and Moash. Who is worse?

what's the point? amaram was never a candidate for redemption.

[Xerun]

Moash will be redeemed when Kaladin stabs him through the face. 

[NateTheMilk]

On 8/25/2020 at 6:21 PM, ZenBossanova said:

Prediction: Book 5 will end with the Shard Odium being passed from Rayse to Moash. 

He will be the new Odium. 

Bro this is such an interesting theory. Personally I don’t think it will happen because Rayse is like the Palpatine of the Cosmere, but reading it gave me some major chilly vibes.

[Master Silver]

7 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

what's the point? amaram was never a candidate for redemption.

The point is if Amaran was given a chance to stop and even repent. In my mind Moash would never order the slaughter of men under his protection. Hence why I think he has a chance at being redeemed. 

[+Bzhydack]

7 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

what's the point? amaram was never a candidate for redemption.

Practicly, he was. He was given a chance. By Dalinar on Thaylen Fields. Even in that point it wasnt too late for him. Sandersons books have very christian spirit, and part of this is, is never too late for redemtion.

Moash can be good for this. Or be good for showing that redemption depends mostly on ourselfs.

[ZenBossanova]

8 hours ago, NateTheMilk said:

Bro this is such an interesting theory. Personally I don’t think it will happen because Rayse is like the Palpatine of the Cosmere, but reading it gave me some major chilly vibes.

I didn't say I thought he would die. Just that the power would pass to Moash. I imagine Rayse will be a major player with groups like the 17th Shard, or the Ghostbloods. 

[GudThymes]

17 hours ago, Zelly said:

Nobody talks about Szeth, but wow he murdered a lot of innocent people for less reasons than Moash.  I'm more curious about his redemption arc since it's less about redemption and more about vengeance on those who caused him to need redemption?

I saw someone else replied on this too but I wanted to add my thoughts. Honestly, I think Szeths "reason" was more morally sound than Moash's. We can look a Nale's activites for the last 20 years (or more) as another comparison if we wanted.

 

You say that Szeth has less of a reason for murdering innocents. While in hindsight this is definitely true, this wasn't the case when Szeth was following orders. Szeth's religion led him to become Truthless, while we don't know exactly how this happened we have some good understanding of what this meant. He was to become a soldier and a slave, with no ability to decide anything for himself. He was honorbound to follow the commands given to him by his master. The only exceptions were that he could not give up his Oathblade and could not take his own life or set something in motion that would (although he could allow himself to be put in lifethreatening situations he had to preserve his life). While many Western philosophies would say that it is moral to disregard the order of a commanding officer if the action would be immoral (executing civilians i.e.) that is not the case in other societies. I believe that this is why we don't question Szeth as much. We understand that while his actions were wrong and immoral he was following using a different moral philosophy to guide his actions. The Szeth in book 3 and now book 4 is free from that moral philosophy and understands that his actions were unjust, hence his crusade against the Shin.

 

Moash doesn't have this. Moash as a character does not have a moral guideline for why he is doing what he does. His decision making all comes from his narcissism and vengeance not from a moral code. It's my viewpoint that Szeth does not need redemption for what he has done. (I also think Moash is irredeemable at this point)

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, GudThymes said:

You say that Szeth has less of a reason for murdering innocents. While in hindsight this is definitely true, this wasn't the case when Szeth was following orders. Szeth's religion led him to become Truthless, while we don't know exactly how this happened we have some good understanding of what this meant. He was to become a soldier and a slave, with no ability to decide anything for himself. He was honorbound to follow the commands given to him by his master. The only exceptions were that he could not give up his Oathblade and could not take his own life or set something in motion that would (although he could allow himself to be put in lifethreatening situations he had to preserve his life). While many Western philosophies would say that it is moral to disregard the order of a commanding officer if the action would be immoral (executing civilians i.e.) that is not the case in other societies. I believe that this is why we don't question Szeth as much. We understand that while his actions were wrong and immoral he was following using a different moral philosophy to guide his actions. The Szeth in book 3 and now book 4 is free from that moral philosophy and understands that his actions were unjust, hence his crusade against the Shin.

Do you mean to say that because Szeth thought what he was doing was right, his actions are justified, at least in part? Or are you saying that because his society "brainwashed" him into thinking it was the right thing, he is less culpable?

2 hours ago, GudThymes said:

Moash doesn't have this. Moash as a character does not have a moral guideline for why he is doing what he does. His decision making all comes from his narcissism and vengeance not from a moral code. It's my viewpoint that Szeth does not need redemption for what he has done. (I also think Moash is irredeemable at this point)

Moash has a moral code. He does what he see as right. Same as Szeth, same as Dalinar, same as Kaladin.

[GudThymes]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Do you mean to say that because Szeth thought what he was doing was right, his actions are justified, at least in part? Or are you saying that because his society "brainwashed" him into thinking it was the right thing, he is less culpable?

I don't believe that Szeth thought what he was doing was "right" per se. However, his perceived responsibility to follow the owner of his oathstone superseded any and all other morals. Less culpable isn't exactly how I would say that, but it works. 

 

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

Moash has a moral code. He does what he see as right. Same as Szeth, same as Dalinar, same as Kaladin.

Doing what you think is right is what everyone does. A moral code is what guides you to believe what is right and what is wrong. For Kaladin we see he grew up being taught that what is right is to save the lives of others (surgeons oaths, Lirin, etc). Now Kaladin has his Oaths that guide his moral code.

Dalinar did not act with morals for a very long time, he was guided to fight in whatever direction he was pointed by Gavilar. It wasn't until the last 6-7 years in world that he built his morality around the Alethi Codes.

 

Moash doesn't have any external basis for determining what is right or a code like Kal or Dalinar. While Moash is acting in ways that could be aligned with certain morals, I think it is undeniable to say that Moash's goal is vengeance. To me, this makes Moash's actions immoral. For me, intent is important in assessing the morality of an action, and Moash's only intent ever is vengeance.

[NameIess]

18 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

Dalinar did not act with morals for a very long time, he was guided to fight in whatever direction he was pointed by Gavilar. It wasn't until the last 6-7 years in world that he built his morality around the Alethi Codes.

Doing what Gavilar told him to isn't all that different from what Szeth did. It is a moral code.

18 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

Moash doesn't have any external basis for determining what is right or a code like Kal or Dalinar. While Moash is acting in ways that could be aligned with certain morals, I think it is undeniable to say that Moash's goal is vengeance. To me, this makes Moash's actions immoral. For me, intent is important in assessing the morality of an action, and Moash's only intent ever is vengeance.

He has Odium. Doing what Odium tells him to is a moral code. In fact, I would say that Moash has even less guilt on his hands than Szeth, considering the influence that Odium seems to have on him. Yes, Moash did kill Elhokar without Odium's influence, but Elhokar did at least commit actions that could be considered evil. Szeth killed dozens if not hundreds of innocent people for no other reason than his blind belief in his rulers and way of life.

[Master Silver]

Ohhhhh... I just had a thought... if the one Honor spren that is holding out was doing so for Moash, now Moash is in the vicinity and perhaps less near the influence of Odium, I know he (Odium) is a Shard, but still not omniscient or omni-present. So what if what Renarian does, allows the honor spren (his or her) chance to get through to Moash. Perhaps Moash's conversation with Kaladin was also a conversation in which he was trying to convince himself... Honor winning that conversation sounds a lot like Moash swearing the first ideal. Life, before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination. 

[LuckyJim]

If I could chip in, Moash absolutely does have a moral code. While most of his motivation is his desire for vengeance for his grandparents, it goes a little beyond that, because he doesn't just want to punish the people responsible for the act, but the system itself that oppresses darkeyes and allowed it to happen in the first place. He didn't just want Elhokar dead, he wanted Dalinar put on the throne instead, because he believed Dalinar would be a fair king that wouldn't let brightlords abuse their power and kill innocent darkeyes.

This changes in the prison camps, where he realizes that the problem with Alethi society wouldn't be changed by swapping out one king for another, because the problems are so inherent, they're baked into humanity itself. When given the chance to escape the abuse of lighteyes, the darkeyes of the prison camps decided to put Paladar in charge and lick his boots instead. Paladar had no power, but they still gave him all their food so he wouldn't have to work for his while mothers and children starved. At this point he decides humanity is so morally corrupt (aside from exceptions like Kaladin) that they just aren't worth saving, and he decides to throw his lot in with the singers because they aren't human. He even stands up to a Fused overseer when he abuses some singer prisoners, begging them not to become like humans.

He's not just mindlessly looking for vengeance and destruction, there are events and logic that led him to the decisions he made, even if you don't agree with them.

3 hours ago, Master Silver said:

Ohhhhh... I just had a thought... if the one Honor spren that is holding out was doing so for Moash, now Moash is in the vicinity and perhaps less near the influence of Odium, I know he (Odium) is a Shard, but still not omniscient or omni-present. So what if what Renarian does, allows the honor spren (his or her) chance to get through to Moash. Perhaps Moash's conversation with Kaladin was also a conversation in which he was trying to convince himself... Honor winning that conversation sounds a lot like Moash swearing the first ideal. Life, before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination. 

I could see this happening, with Moash eventually becoming a Windrunner for the singers who "can't protect themselves".

[HipsterStick]

On 8/25/2020 at 1:09 PM, Spinner16 said:

Moash's fall from grace has been such a protracted thing that it would be a waste to have him get redeemed. I absolutely love him as a villain and I'd hate to lose him in any way other than in an incredible climactic battle with Kaladin.

I agree with this. However, here’s an idea-

What if Moash survives Stormlight- and goes on to become a Cosmere aware character? And tries to earn his redemption there?

Consider: it’s book 5 (or book 10, I don’t know where it would fit better) of the series. There’s this big climactic battle between Kaladin and Moash. By the end of it, something happens to Dai-gonarthis (who I am convinced has something to do with Odium’s apathy-inducing aura) or maybe Odium himself, and all of Moash’s pain returns to him. He breaks down and begs Kaladin to kill him- but Kaladin leaves him and just walks away. Moash is left to deal with the accumulation of all of his past misdeeds and confront his shame.

Then comes the epilogue. It’s Wit as usual, making his normal fancy speech- only this time, it’s not evident who he is talking to for the whole chapter. Until, that is, when he gets to the end, and finishes with some inspiring statement about redemption. And then, he extends to Moash (who has just been revealed as the person he’s been talking to) the opportunity of redemption.

From there, Moash works tirelessly to help the Cosmere fight Odium, and to make it a better place. So instead of getting a rushed, slightly forced redemption arc, Moash gets a LOT of time to work out his problems (behind the scenes, but still happening).

Plus, then he can show up if there’s a big Cosmere finale.