Imperial Nomic: The Final Empire

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HOUSE RELIDAN'S STILL OFFICIAL CENSUS
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The Lord Ruler
ElectrumSavant 

NOBLE HOUSES
(185) - House Soliel (The_Truthwatcher): Inquisitor
(272) - House Relidan (Illwei): High Prelan
(85) - House Tellen (Negative_Null): Favored House
(93) - House Wafre (DoomStick)
(69) - House Otter (Chinkoln)
(51) - House Ightejyw (Danex)
(26) - House Fura (Furamirionind)
(52) - House Hollow (Kings_Way)
(15) - House Ethorris (Matrim's Dice)
(49) - House Mist (Mist) Obligator
(10) - House Fadran (Channelknight Fadran)

PENDING (Carried over (with Links (abbreviated)))
House Wafre:
     (303a) change 3/4 to 2/3
     (305)  if the Lord Ruler passes or rejects a proposal, the Senate can choose to override that with a 3/4 vote
     (510)  Houses have Kandra at their disposa
     (303c)  change Active Noble House to Active Noble House (not including Skaa)

House Ightejyw:
     (1) Proposal: Instead if everyone with no role automatically being in the senate, you must request to join.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Illwei

[+Doomstick]

3 minutes ago, Illwei said:

HOUSE RELIDAN'S STILL OFFICIAL CENSUS
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Lord Ruler
ElectrumSavant 

NOBLE HOUSES
(185) - House Soliel (The_Truthwatcher): Inquisitor
(272) - House Relidan (Illwei): High Prelan
(85) - House Tellen (Negative_Null): Favored House
(93) - House Wafre (DoomStick)
(69) - House Otter (Chinkoln)
(51) - House Ightejyw (Danex)
(26) - House Fura (Furamirionind)
(52) - House Hollow (Kings_Way)
(15) - House Ethorris (Matrim's Dice)
(49) - House Mist (Mist) Obligator
(10) - House Fadran (Channelknight Fadran)

PENDING (Carried over (with Links (abbreviated)))
House Wafre:
     (303a) change 3/4 to 2/3
     (305)  if the Lord Ruler passes or rejects a proposal, the Senate can choose to override that with a 3/4 vote
     (510)  Houses have Kandra at their disposa
     (303a)  change Active Noble House to Active Noble House (not including Skaa)

what does the a mean? (in 303a)

[---]

Just now, Doomstick said:

what does the a mean? (in 303a)

amendment

[+Doomstick]

the last one is a clarification

[---]

Just now, Doomstick said:

the last one is a clarification

Which still amends a current law? it's an amendment to clarify something.

[+Doomstick]

2 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Which still amends a current law? it's an amendment to clarify something.

no, clarifications are different

I Call for Judgement as this is a mistake in the census

Edited August 31, 2020 by Doomstick

[---]

5 minutes ago, Doomstick said:

no, clarifications are different

I Call for Judgement

I- is there a certain rule you are refering to? as there isn't, as far as I'm aware, a rule that clarifies that (1) clarification is a thing, and (2) that the High Prelan would be fined, or anyone would be fined, for mixing the two up?

Are you claiming that the clarification is in response to the Lord Ruler's 10 Atium bounty?

---

Proposal:

  (009) Proposals and amendments must include the number of the law that they are proposing or amending. 

Edited August 31, 2020 by Illwei

[+Doomstick]

19 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Are you claiming that the clarification is in response to the Lord Ruler's 10 Atium bounty?

yes

[---]

Just now, Doomstick said:

yes

I mean there still isn't grounds for a call for judgement? I'm not violating any rules

[+Doomstick]

its a mistake in the census

[ElectrumSavant]

First, page 8.

5 hours ago, Doomstick said:

303 (amendment): change 3/4 to 2/3

Accepted.

5 hours ago, Doomstick said:

305 (new rule): if the Lord Ruler passes or rejects a proposal, the Senate can choose to override that with a 3/4 vote

Accepted.

5 hours ago, Doomstick said:

510 (new rule): Houses have Kandra at their disposal, which they can use every 5 Senate votes, A Kandra costs 64 atium and allows you to steal one vote from the house of your choice for that Senate meeting. A House can send a Mistborn after the Kandra, the Mistborn has a 20% chance of stopping the Kandra.

I like the proposal, my only issue is with the Mistborn part. It seems like it would be hard to manage the Mistborn's 20% chance, since the Shard has no built-in probability system, so we would have to call in the Obligator... I think that it would work better if you could hire a Kandra yourself to cancel out the other Kandra, at full price but with a 100% certainty of success (although with the understanding that you would then be vulnerable to future Kandra for the next 5 Senate votes).

5 hours ago, Doomstick said:

303 (clarification): change Active Noble House to Active Noble House (not including Skaa)

Rejected. The rules already make clear how a "Noble" house is different from a "Skaa" house. As this was a clarification, not a proposal, you lose no Atium.

3 hours ago, Danex said:

Proposal: Instead if everyone with no role automatically being in the senate, you must request to join. Anyone can join, but if you do not vote on a senate proposal after 24 hours, you loose your seat in the senate and cannot get it back for 2 pages.

possible amendment: Instead or losing your seat 24 hours after the proposal, you could loose it if you haven’t voted 24 hours after the last person voted. 

3 hours ago, Doomstick said:

but only if the senate actually votes, right?

3 hours ago, Danex said:

Yeah, the senate doesn’t vote on every proposal, just proposals that have been seconded. (And ir rule 305 passes, they can vote to overrule a LR ruling. Should we say someone has to second an overruling proposal too? We’d be consistent then.)

I like this proposal in that it works to prevent people from joining the game and leaving, and in doing so making it harder than intended for anything to go through the Senate. But I don't like the 24 hours restriction. I think that this goal- making it so that people in the Senate actually have to be involved- would be better met either through reducing the amount of time it takes for someone's player status to become Inactive (Rule 008); or with a rule that said that members of the Senate only had a limited amount of time to make their vote known before a tally was taken of all the Senators who voted on a proposal, and the rule was Accepted or Rejected based on the Senators who actually voted.

2 hours ago, Illwei said:

(also if anyone has a better name than a "club" ie, something more scadrial-ee then please propose it bc clubs sounds kinda dumb)

Perhaps "Factions", to represent how the Houses form up into different groups and alliances during Mistborn 1's House War? Factions could establish some mutual defense agreements in advance, like having their Mistborn automatically defend each other from attacks, and maybe would get access to one extra Mistborn or something else to make a Faction desirable.

Or we could change it a bit and make them "Dominances", where you can pay a good amount of Atium to found/conquer/discover a Dominance and have your House become the leader of that Dominance (no idea what the name is for the leader of a Dominance. Governor? High Lord? King? General?). Other Houses could move to an existing Dominance for a much lower cost, but wouldn't be in charge unless they did some kind of coup. There would have to be some kind of benefit to being in charge of a Dominance (maybe an extra Senate vote?), and either a maximum number of Dominances or a high cost to prevent everyone from just making their own Dominance.

[ShrubSeph]

I propose that the end of rule 302 be amended to say "If a proposal is accepted or rejected by the Senate before the LR, then the proposal is law and the LR can't accept or reject it afterward."

since the edition of 305, this section needed to be changed.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Kings_way

[+Doomstick]

17 hours ago, ElectrumSavant said:

I like the proposal, my only issue is with the Mistborn part. It seems like it would be hard to manage the Mistborn's 20% chance, since the Shard has no built-in probability system, so we would have to call in the Obligator... I think that it would work better if you could hire a Kandra yourself to cancel out the other Kandra, at full price but with a 100% certainty of success (although with the understanding that you would then be vulnerable to future Kandra for the next 5 Senate votes).

you roll a d10, and if it is a 9 or 10, the mistborn wins, if it is anything else, the Kandra wins.  I am adding to that proposal that 2 mistborn have a 40% chance, 3 have a 60% chance, 4 have a 80% chance, and 5 have a 100% chance of catching the Kandra

[ShrubSeph]

That seems like a lot of effort for  a single vote. 

[+Doomstick]

2 minutes ago, Kings_way said:

That seems like a lot of effort for  a single vote. 

true, but it might be a very important vote

[ElectrumSavant]

On 8/31/2020 at 2:15 PM, Doomstick said:

I Call for Judgement as this is a mistake in the census

Judgment

It's never been officially brought up, but this is the exact reason that Rule 202 exists. The High Prelan has the ability to rewrite proposals in whatever way he/she sees fit as long as it doesn't change the inherent meaning of the rule. Numbering conventions don't change anything about the meaning of a rule, so it is completely within the High Prelan's prerogative to number the rules (or not number them) however he/she likes.

12 hours ago, Kings_way said:

I propose that the end of rule 302 be amended to say "If a proposal is accepted or rejected by the Senate before the LR, then the proposal is law and the LR can't accept or reject it afterward."

Accepted. This is a clarification and so worth 10 Atium.

10 hours ago, Doomstick said:

you roll a d10, and if it is a 9 or 10, the mistborn wins, if it is anything else, the Kandra wins.  I am adding to that proposal that 2 mistborn have a 40% chance, 3 have a 60% chance, 4 have a 80% chance, and 5 have a 100% chance of catching the Kandra

Rejected. I still think that it is unnecessarily complicated and difficult to implement fairly.

[+Doomstick]

On 8/25/2020 at 9:37 AM, ElectrumSavant said:

003- Any player besides the Lord Ruler may make a Proposal or Amendment, which can affect any rule, including the Basic Rules. Players gain 16 Atium for any proposal or amendment that they make that is approved by the Lord Ruler. If a proposal or amendment is rejected then the house is taxed a flat 8 Atium for inconveniencing the Lord Ruler. All proposals must follow 17th Shard guidelines, as detailed in the 17 Shard Code of Conduct. Proposals have three states: Accepted, Rejected, and Pending.

amendment to this rule: it does not say that amendments cost 8 atium if rejected, it should (the added text is in bold)

is the census written in accordance to this?

Edited September 2, 2020 by Doomstick

[danex]

I propose that if you call for judgement and the LR finds that the person you are accusing is innocent, you should be fined the same amount you would be for a rejected rule. 

I propose that if you call for judgement and the person is found guilty, you receive a portion of their fine, this portion is variable and up to the LR’s discretion. 

(Yes this is making the Inquisitor rather irrelevant, but I think we can use that role in a better way. (Don’t ask me how, I’m still working on that. (Yay, stacked parenthesis!)))

I propose that every rule be given a Name as well as a Number. This would make it easier to refer to them in game. Names can be simple, but you should be able to infer the general purpose of the rule from the name itself. The Lord Ruler will add names for all current rules (or he can task someone with doing it) and all new rules to be proposed must include a name. 
 

I’d like to remind people that we have a whole senate system in place and we aren’t using it. We all ought to be seconding rules and stuff.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Danex

[---]

10 hours ago, Danex said:

I propose that if you call for judgement and the LR finds that the person you are accusing is innocent, you should be fined the same amount you would be for a rejected rule. 

I second this proposal 

Proposal (because it wasn't seen earlier)
    (009) Proposals and Amendments must include the number of the law that they are Proposing or Amending.

[+Doomstick]

12 hours ago, Danex said:

I propose that every rule be given a Name as well as a Number. This would make it easier to refer to them in game. Names can be simple, but you should be able to infer the general purpose of the rule from the name itself. The Lord Ruler will add names for all current rules (or he can task someone with doing it) and all new rules to be proposed must include a name. 

I second this, and if the Lord Ruler does not wish to make names, I would be happy to (for a small fee of course)

[---]

a few Proposals that tie in together somewhat:
 (2) The..uh...Majority Leader? a new position that is chosen via the houses votes. the Lord Ruler does not pick this position. the holding of other positions does not stop someone from running for this position.
 (1) There is an ongoing PM created with all active players in it for the Senate to vote in. final rulings on laws will be posted in the thread by the Majority leader.
     - Lord Ruler is included in the PM but may not post in it.
     - The only thing that should be posted there by members of the Senate is votes
     - The Majority Leader posts a post in the PM with the full proposal and the proposer listed every time a new proposal is seconded.
 (3) The proposer of a new law can not vote on their own proposal
 (4) Amendment to 302, with the removal of  "Each role gives its owner an extra vote in the Senate." 

Edited September 2, 2020 by Illwei

[ElectrumSavant]

19 hours ago, Doomstick said:

amendment to this rule: it does not say that amendments cost 8 atium if rejected, it should (the added text is in bold)

Rejected. The word "proposal" in the laws can apply to both a Proposal and an Amendment; if we needed to say "proposals and amendments" in order to get the point across then we would have to rewrite most of the laws relating to proposals/amendments. As this was a clarification, you lose no Atium.

14 hours ago, Danex said:

I propose that if you call for judgement and the LR finds that the person you are accusing is innocent, you should be fined the same amount you would be for a rejected rule.

Accepted. By way of reminder, that is currently 8 Atium.

14 hours ago, Danex said:

I propose that if you call for judgement and the person is found guilty, you receive a portion of their fine, this portion is variable and up to the LR’s discretion. 

Accepted. I'm most likely going to go at a rate of 50%, rounded down, like the Inquisitor receives. I would encourage people to come up with a rework of how the Inquisitor works, since now anyone can call out the High Prelan.

14 hours ago, Danex said:

I propose that every rule be given a Name as well as a Number. This would make it easier to refer to them in game. Names can be simple, but you should be able to infer the general purpose of the rule from the name itself. The Lord Ruler will add names for all current rules (or he can task someone with doing it) and all new rules to be proposed must include a name. 

Accepted. I'm not going to name all the rules right now, but I will within the next couple of days. People are free to suggest names, and when I finally name all of the rules I will award somewhere around 2-5 Atium per suggested name that I pick.

3 hours ago, Illwei said:

(009) Proposals and Amendments must include the number of the law that they are Proposing or Amending.

Rejected. I do appreciate it when people reference what law they are Amending in their proposal, but in the case of Proposals (which have no number yet) it seems like it would get hard for proposers to manage.

1 hour ago, Illwei said:

(2) The..uh...Majority Leader? a new position that is chosen via the houses votes. the Lord Ruler does not pick this position. the holding of other positions does not stop someone from running for this position.

Accepted. If you're looking for a more Scadrial-ish name, perhaps the Chancellor? That was the role of the person who presided over the Assembly in absence of the king in Mistborn book 2.

1 hour ago, Illwei said:

(1) There is an ongoing PM created with all active players in it for the Senate to vote in. final rulings on laws will be posted in the thread by the Majority leader.
     - Lord Ruler is included in the PM but may not post in it.
     - The only thing that should be posted there by members of the Senate is votes
     - The Majority Leader posts a post in the PM with the full proposal and the proposer listed every time a new proposal is seconded.

Accepted. This seems like it would be useful, and prevent both the votes cluttering up the thread and the thread cluttering up the votes.

1 hour ago, Illwei said:

 (3) The proposer of a new law can not vote on their own proposal

I'm a bit confused about this rule. Is it saying that it is assumed that the person who proposed a law supports the law, or that the proposer of a law is not counted for the purposes of the 2/3 majority vote?

1 hour ago, Illwei said:

(4) Amendment to 302, with the removal of  "Each role gives its owner an extra vote in the Senate." 

Accepted. Again, though, might I suggest that the Inquisitor be given some new powers/responsibilities, as now the role is pretty much just a title.

[---]

15 minutes ago, ElectrumSavant said:

I'm a bit confused about this rule. Is it saying that it is assumed that the person who proposed a law supports the law, or that the proposer of a law is not counted for the purposes of the 2/3 majority vote?

That they are not counted for the purposes of the 2/3 majority vote.

Also, uh, yeah. can you change that to chancellor? :P.

Anyone have an idea of who the responsibilities should fall to in the absence of a Chancellor? The Inquisitor and Obligator both have smaller tasks kinda. I would volunteer me until someone else wants to because I have some formatting ideas :P. but I'm pretty sure there's someone else who wants too so I know I probably won't be elected lol but uh anyways-

Hey! I'm running to be your next chancellor! 
You should vote for me because:
  - I love making lists
  - I love formatting things
  - My school hasn't started yet, so I can check the shard more often than not
  - I love making lists
  - I love writing things :).

Edited September 2, 2020 by Illwei

[+Doomstick]

3 hours ago, ElectrumSavant said:

Rejected. The word "proposal" in the laws can apply to both a Proposal and an Amendment; if we needed to say "proposals and amendments" in order to get the point across then we would have to rewrite most of the laws relating to proposals/amendments. As this was a clarification, you lose no Atium.

it says proposals and amendments in the previous sentence

the words "a flat" in "taxed a flat 8 atium for inconveniencing the Lord Ruler" are unnecessary, so they should be removed  

Edited September 3, 2020 by Doomstick

[ShrubSeph]

I propose that the Inquisitor be able to resolve calls for judgement, as long as they did not call and are not the accused. They are paid 8 atium for each resolved dispute.

I also propose that the Senate be able to remove or appoint the Inquisitor, the High Prelan, and obligators. To do this, anyone can petition to the senate. If their petition is seconded, the Senate votes.