Imperial Nomic: The Final Empire

[---]

HOUSE RELIDAN'S NOW OFFICIAL CENSUS
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Lord Ruler
ElectrumSavant 

HOUSES (in Good Favor/Nobles)
(156) - House Relidan (Illwei): Obligator
(90) - House Soliel (The_Truthwatcher): Inquisitor
(85) - House Tellen (Negative_Null): Favored House
(69) - House Wafre (DoomStick)
(49) - House Otter (Chinkoln)
(32) - House Fura (Furamirionind)
(15) - House Ethorris (Matrim's Dice)
(10) - House Fadran (Channelknight Fadran)
(0) - House Ightejyw (Danex)
(0) - House Mist (Mist)

PENDING PROPOSALS (Carried over (with Links (abbreviated)))
House Ightejyw:
 - (1) proposal that all proposed rules must follow 17th shard guidelines. 
 - (2) proposal that the Lord Ruler may step down and appoint a new Lord Ruler
 - (3) proposal that Mayo be considered, for all intents and purposes, as an Instrument
 - (4) proposal for how amendments for pending proposals should be handled
 - (5) proposal for how bets should be handled

House Mist: 
 - (1) proposal that not all houses may be allied at once, as that would allow all players to achieve victory at once

House Relidan:
 - (1) Whoever has the position of "Favored house" May not make more than 5 posts per page.
 - (2) people may not double post. If you do double post it will result in a fee of 3 Atium. 
 - (3) No more than 1/4 of the total players may be in the same House.
 - (4) proposal that to officially Call for Judgement, a player must Bold and color orange.

EDIT: 
(1) Updated with player names (something I was going to do but thought it looked nicer without :P) and your two proposals from the last cycle page @Danex
(2) @Mist Do you have a House Name you would like to claim?

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CLUB LISTINGS:

Spoiler

Edited August 28, 2020 by Illwei

[danex]

I propose that the Official Census have player names as well as the house they belong too, once we have multiple people in a house this will be important. 
 

Also there are 2 more proposals for house IGHTEJYW, last post previous page. 
:v
Edit: wait never mind, I instead invoke rule 105 and say that the Obligator “omitted players” and should thus be fined. (The census in question has been edittee to have names now, but it didn’t at first.)

Edited August 28, 2020 by Danex

[---]

8 minutes ago, Danex said:

Edit: wait never mind, I instead invoke rule 105 and say that the Obligator “omitted players” and should thus be fined. (The census in question has been edittee to have names now, but it didn’t at first.)

It is the Inquisitor's job to catch that, and as you so graciously caught it before them (although I see Truthwatcher Lurking) you have allowed me to edit before I would be fined :P. I also edited it within minutes of posting, not much much later.
I would be fine if you feel the need to Call for Judgment

Edited August 28, 2020 by Illwei

[theTruthshaper]

5 minutes ago, Illwei said:

It is the Inquisitor's job to catch that, and as you so graciously caught it before them (although I see Truthwatcher Lurking) you have allowed me to edit before I would be fined :P. I also edited it within minutes of posting, not much much later.
I would be fine if you feel the need to Call for Judgment

I was going to leave you of the hook for it. It doesn't really matter. (Thought, a tip: Use Excel and then copy paste the table, it's much cleaner)
Better start not double posting.

Spoiler

31 minutes ago, Illwei said:

HOUSE RELIDAN'S NOW OFFICIAL CENSUS
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Lord Ruler
ElectrumSavant 

HOUSES (in Good Favor/Nobles)
(156) - House Relidan (Illwei): Obligator
(90) - House Soliel (The_Truthwatcher): Inquisitor
(85) - House Tellen (Negative_Null): Favored House
(69) - House Wafre (DoomStick)
(49) - House Otter (Chinkoln)
(32) - House Fura (Furamirionind)
(15) - House Ethorris (Matrim's Dice)
(10) - House Fadran (Channelknight Fadran)
(0) - House Ightejyw (Danex)
(0) - House Mist (Mist)

PENDING PROPOSALS
House Ightejyw:
 - (1) proposal that all proposed rules must follow 17th shard guidelines. 
 - (2) proposal that the Lord Ruler may step down and appoint a new Lord Ruler
 - (3) proposal that Mayo be considered, for all intents and purposes, as an Instrument
 - (4) proposal for how amendments for pending proposals should be handled
 - (5) proposal for how bets should be handled

House Mist: 
 - (1) proposal that not all houses may be allied at once, as that would allow all players to achieve victory at once

House Relidan:
 - (1) Whoever has the position of "Favored house" May not make more than 5 posts per page.
 - (2) people may not double post. If you do double post it will result in a fee of 3 Atium. 
 - (3) No more than 1/4 of the total players may be in the same House.

My dear Obligator, you have again made a grave mistake. You currently have 176 Atium, if your last Census was accurate. You will now be fined 44 Atium, while I will gain 22. You better recheck the other balances. (I think you missed the Atium you got due to Furamirionind)

---

Proposals:

Atium earned per accepted proposal be increased to 16 for flavor reasons. (Why would you make it 15 !?)

Proposals relating only to the Census, or the duties of the Inquisitor or the Obligator can also be accepted if both the Inquisitor and the Obligator approve them

Mistborn can be used to kill Skaa, and Nobles of no House. This turns over all possessions, roles, and Atium to the Owner of the Mistborn.

If Mistborn are used to kill a House which has a role, one of the three Houses will inherit that role. If the Houses cannot decide, the Lord Ruler may give the role to ANYONE.

Amendment to 210, "except making proposals." Otherwise, there is no way for new players to earn Atium.

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ᓚᘏᗢ

[danex]

4 minutes ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

Use Excel and then copy paste the table, it's much cleaner

Noooo don’t do that, it completely breaks mobile. 

[---]

7 minutes ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

My dear Obligator, you have again made a grave mistake. You currently have 176 Atium, if your last Census was accurate. You will now be fined 44 Atium, while I will gain 22. You better recheck the other balances. (I think you missed the Atium you got due to Furamirionind)

My good Inquisitor, It appears as though you have made a mistake, for I triple checked my numbers before posting. Show me your numbers and I shall show you mine. I would personally be thrilled if you were correct, although I have no clue how I could have made back almost the full 45 Atium I lost last page.

3 minutes ago, Danex said:

Noooo don’t do that, it completely breaks mobile. 

5 Atium to the bank account of one Illwei Relidan as per rule 206

Edited August 28, 2020 by Illwei

[theTruthshaper]

43 minutes ago, Illwei said:

My good Inquisitor, It appears as though you have made a mistake, for I triple checked my numbers before posting. Show me your numbers and I shall show you mine. I would personally be thrilled if you were correct, although I have no clue how I could have made back almost the full 45 Atium I lost last page.

As I said, I thought that you missed the Atium you got due to Furamirionind. I just checked and learned that you had included it in the last census.

Nevertheless, House Fura should have 42 Atium, thus you are still wrong in your census. I suggest double checking all your values.

Fura calculation:

Spoiler

20 + 15 - 2 - 2 + 15 - 2 - 2

You probably added only 10 Atium for each accepted proposal.

 

Edited August 28, 2020 by The_Truthwatcher

[---]

52 minutes ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

As I said, I thought that you missed the Atium you got due to Furamirionind. I just checked and learned that you had included it in the last census.

Nevertheless, House Fura should have 42 Atium, thus you are still wrong in your census. I suggest double checking all your values.

Fura calculation:

  Hide contents

20 + 15 - 2 - 2 + 15 - 2 - 2

You probably added only 10 Atium for each accepted proposal.

 

Man, and I was getting ready to link my spreadsheet and everything :(( :P.

This is that I have for Fura:

House Fura (Furamirionind)
ATIUM			32
+			-
REF	Illwei	20		Rejected Prop.	6
	Accepted Prop.	15		Rejected Prop.	4
	Accepted Prop.	15		Rejected Prop.	8

As it's -2 per line, not 2 per proposal. I counted the lines which were quoted in TLR's ruling post. 

I'm still gonna link my thing bc I'm proud of it so :P. If you want to see my...er...counting? skills?
This is the link. Click me.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Illwei

[theTruthshaper]

42 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Man, and I was getting ready to link my spreadsheet and everything :(( :P.

This is that I have for Fura:

 

House Fura (Furamirionind)
ATIUM			32
+			-
REF	Illwei	20		Rejected Prop.	6
	Accepted Prop.	15		Rejected Prop.	4
	Accepted Prop.	15		Rejected Prop.	8

As it's -2 per line, not 2 per proposal. I counted the lines which were quoted in TLR's ruling post. 

Oh-kay.

Proposal:

Change the penalty for rejected proposals to -2 per proposal.

---

@Illwei

Fura has 4 proposals which were rejected. You missed the last one. House Fura should have 26 Atium.

 

Edited August 28, 2020 by The_Truthwatcher

[ElectrumSavant]

Alright, first I'm doing page 6's proposals.

8 hours ago, Danex said:

I propose that all proposed rules must follow 17th shard guidelines. 

Approved. I guess that this is kind of an "unwritten rule", since all posts are on the Shard, but it is good to have it written down. No posts should violate the 17 Shard Code of Conduct.

8 hours ago, Danex said:

I propose that the Lord Ruler may step down and appoint a new Lord Ruler whenever they wish. The person being appointed must accept the position. The new Lord Ruler may not be the Favored House. The position of the Lord Ruler may only change hands once per week at a minimum. 

Accepted. Any future Lord Rulers should note that it is vital to find a public way to keep all of the game rules together. Right now I can update the first post of the topic, but if someone else became Lord Ruler then we might need a Google doc or something. Just something to think about.

8 hours ago, Danex said:

I propose that Mayo be considered, for all intensive purposes, as an Instrument. Anyone insisting otherwise will be Ridiculed and Fined. Perhaps Shunned as well.

Rejected. I'm worried about being Called For Judgment on this and having to figure out what "Ridiculed, Fined, and Shunned" means in an official sense.

8 hours ago, Mist said:

I propose that not all houses may be allied at once, as that would allow all players to achieve victory at once. 

Accepted.

7 hours ago, Illwei said:

Whoever has the position of "Favored house" May not make more than 5 posts per page. (an attempt to make sure people don't post too much, so the page turns and they collect Atium.)

Rejected. Seeing as a single page takes up 25 posts, a limit of 5 posts per page seems a bit uncomfortably small. I might accept this if it were 10 posts per page. Might I point out that the proposer of this law, @Illwei, posted 9 times on page 6, and as Obligator also stands to benefit from each page that turns.

7 hours ago, Illwei said:

people may not double post. If you do double post it will result in a fee of 3 Atium. This does not apply to The Obligator's census count if the census was the first post of a page.

Approved. I appreciate the built-in fine.

7 hours ago, Illwei said:

No more than 1/4 of the total players may be in the same House. (ie. if there are 8 players, no more than 2 in the same house, and if there are 12 then no more than 3.)

I would accept this, but I need the added clarification: if the player amount decreases, do the combined Houses have to split back up, or can they stay together?

7 hours ago, Illwei said:

I propose that to official Call for Judgement, a player must Bold and color orange to make it easier for TLR to identify them. (ie. "I think this is in violation of rule 201, so I Call for Judgement"

Accepted, this will hopefully make it a lot easier for me to see when someone wants Judgment.

5 hours ago, Danex said:

I propose that if a player wishes to amend a proposal that has not yet passed, they must get the consent of the person who originally proposed it. If a player wishes to amend a rule that has already been approved, they do not need to do this. If a player gets consent to propose an amendment, and then the original proposal is accepted with that amendment, both players receive Atium, split evenly. If the reward is odd, the remainder goes to the original proposer. If only the original proposal is accepted, only the original proposer gets the Atium. 

Accepted. So, to be clear, if two people have similar ideas then there isn't anything stopping them from both submitting a proposal. This law is meant to make it so that players can collaborate on a single proposal if they want to.

5 hours ago, Danex said:

I propose that any bets between players must be seen and approved by an Obligator. If the bet is a game of chance, it is the Obligator’s duty to be sure the chances are fair, or at least proportionate to the bets. In some cases, the Obligator might facilitate the bet. Example: House A bets House B 10 Atium that a coin will land on heads. An Obligator with no ties to House A or B then flips a coin irl. They then report the results in the thread. In a case such as this, where the Obligator actually facilitates a bet, it is recommended that the Obligator be tipped for their services, but this is not required. Obligators may choose whether they wish to facilitate any given bet. If no Obligator wishes to do so, the bet cannot proceed. (This is why you should tip them.)

I think that this is a good idea; it seems like it would be a fun way to add some minigames and have people actually start placing bets. My only concern is that it seems that there is a lot already on our Obligator's plate. Illwei, would you be up for this, or would you prefer that some kind of new, separate role be created to handle bets?

[theTruthshaper]

I welcome my Lord back into the game, and wish My God a very great morning.

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I might be mistaken, Illwei, but doesn't the Obligator get 10 Atium for every Census. Wouldn't that also make your Census incorrect? @Illwei

Edited August 28, 2020 by The_Truthwatcher

[ElectrumSavant]

Now for page 7. Let's go.

5 hours ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

Atium earned per accepted proposal be increased to 16 for flavor reasons. (Why would you make it 15 !?)

Accepted.

5 hours ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

Proposals relating only to the Census, or the duties of the Inquisitor or the Obligator can also be accepted if both the Inquisitor and the Obligator approve them

Accepted. Might I ask that if such proposals are accepted, the second of the two to approve the proposal please list the approval in Green and get my attention with an @. Also note that pay increases can't be gained in this way, as that isn't a 'duty' of the Inquisitors or Obligator.

5 hours ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

Mistborn can be used to kill Skaa, and Nobles of no House. This turns over all possessions, roles, and Atium to the Owner of the Mistborn.

Rejected. Might I point out that the difference between a Skaa and a Noble is that Skaa have negative Atium, so there would be nothing to gain from assassinating them. Also, per Rule 203, just because a Noble hasn't named their House doesn't mean that they aren't part of a House.

5 hours ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

If Mistborn are used to kill a House which has a role, one of the three Houses will inherit that role. If the Houses cannot decide, the Lord Ruler may give the role to ANYONE.

Rejected. While I like the added flavor, I really need the administrative help that the established roles provide, and I worry that assassinations would make it impossible for the new Obligators or Inquisitors to keep straight who has what.

5 hours ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

Amendment to 210, "except making proposals." Otherwise, there is no way for new players to earn Atium.

Approved. You have a point.

4 hours ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

Change the penalty for rejected proposals to -2 per proposal.

Approved. Hopefully, the stability will make things more clear. However, because there is now a greater reward from getting proposals accepted (a whopping 16 Atium), we might want to increase the penalty for getting proposals rejected (perhaps as much as 10 Atium?).

[theTruthshaper]

3 minutes ago, ElectrumSavant said:

Approved. Hopefully, the stability will make things more clear. However, because there is now a greater reward from getting proposals accepted (a whopping 16 Atium), we might want to increase the penalty for getting proposals rejected (perhaps as much as 10 Atium?).

An increase to -8? 10 seem a bit high and 8 can have better flavor.

 

[+Doomstick]

anyone want to join houses?

[---]

3 hours ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

I might be mistaken, Illwei, but doesn't the Obligator get 10 Atium for every Census. Wouldn't that also make your Census incorrect? @Illwei

? Yeah they do and I have that in there. Did you look at my Spreadsheet?

Reffering to the Fura thing Honestly I wasn't paying attention to them because they told me they weren't going to play anymore.
It's too late now but I would also like to mention that you made a census on page 4 and very much miscounted, but that was not applied as you said it wasn't an "official" census, though you had been appointed obligator before that, making it an official census.

3 hours ago, ElectrumSavant said:

I would accept this, but I need the added clarification: if the player amount decreases, do the combined Houses have to split back up, or can they stay together?

Play count matters at the time of joining. if there are 12 active players and three join into a house, and then two people go inactive, then the house is not affected.

3 hours ago, ElectrumSavant said:

Illwei, would you be up for this

I mean I'd be up for it, but I think a new role would make more sense tbh.

---

Proposal:

(1) if the Inquisitor thinks that the obligator made a miscount, but the obligator turns out to be correct, the Inquisitor is instead the one to lose 25% with 50% of that to the Obligator. 

---

Edited August 28, 2020 by Illwei

[+Doomstick]

@Danex do you want to join House Wafre?

[---]

2 hours ago, Doomstick said:

anyone want to join houses?

5 Atium to the account House Relidan

38 minutes ago, Doomstick said:

@Danex do you want to join House Wafre?

5 more Atium to the account of House Relidan

I almost feel bad, but it's not like you're losing Atium from me doing it

[+Doomstick]

11 minutes ago, Illwei said:

5 Atium to the account House Relidan

5 more Atium to the account of House Relidan

I almost feel bad, but it's not like you're losing Atium from me doing it

do you want to join houses?

a's in spoilers count, right?

i think they do, if not, an A ate Andy's alliterative apples

[danex]

I propose that the A rule be revoked because it’s stupid. 

I propose that if the A rule is not revoked, a player may only claim their five Atium by explicitly stating which rule they are invoking. 

1 hour ago, Illwei said:

5 Atium to the account House Relidan

5 more Atium to the account of House Relidan

I almost feel bad, but it's not like you're losing Atium from me doing it

This isn’t explicit. 
 

I propose that instead of having a 2 per line Atium penalty for Rejected proposals, we have a 2 per 16 words penalty, rounded down. (So in a 44 word rejected proposal, they’d be fined 4 Atium.) This is because lines can change based on someone’s zoom settings, or based on whether they use mobile or computer. I think this is better than a flat rate because it keeps things interesting and it stays true to the original idea that we’re being fined for wasting the LR’s time. The more time we waste the more we should be fined.  The exact numbers in this proposal can be changed at the LR’s discretion. We could have 10 Atium fine per 4 words or something, but the main idea is that the penalty be based on word count. 

[ElectrumSavant]

5 hours ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

An increase to -8? 10 seem a bit high and 8 can have better flavor.

Accepted. Further thoughts about the rejection penalty are explained later in the post.

3 hours ago, Illwei said:

if the Inquisitor thinks that the obligator made a miscount, but the obligator turns out to be correct, the Inquisitor is instead the one to lose 25% with 50% of that to the Obligator. 

Rejected. The Inquisitor's job is to point out errors with the Obligator's Census. I'm willing to decrease some of the harsher penalties for an Obligator making mistakes, like the automatic role revocation after two mistakes. But I don't want to discourage the Inquisitor from doing his job.

9 minutes ago, Danex said:

I propose that the A rule be revoked because it’s stupid. 

Accepted. It does seem like it's gone farther than necessary, and it is just getting more complicated as time goes on.

9 minutes ago, Danex said:

I propose that instead of having a 2 per line Atium penalty for Rejected proposals, we have a 2 per 16 words penalty, rounded down. (So in a 44 word rejected proposal, they’d be fined 4 Atium.) This is because lines can change based on someone’s zoom settings, or based on whether they use mobile or computer. I think this is better than a flat rate because it keeps things interesting and it stays true to the original idea that we’re being fined for wasting the LR’s time. The more time we waste the more we should be fined.  The exact numbers in this proposal can be changed at the LR’s discretion. We could have 10 Atium fine per 4 words or something, but the main idea is that the penalty be based on word count. 

Rejected. It is often difficult to determine whether words are part of a proposal or not. This was already getting to be a bit of a problem with the old per-line system, and I think that making it per word would further exacerbate the issue. A flat rate isn't perfect, but I think that it is simpler than the other two options we have considered this far.

 

Regarding @Danex's earlier proposal about bets being done through the Obligator, I'm having trouble linking to it and so wasn't able to in this post. Regardless, I think that the proposal would be better served if it were a new role, rather than just piling more responsibility on the Obligator. I'm not going to outright reject it right now, but would encourage some rewriting.

[ShrubSeph]

I have been invited by Chinkoln (house Otter)

I will be joining as House Hollow.

I propose for a fine of -8 atrium be given for rejected proposals, regardless of line or word count.

 

[danex]

You will notice that in that post I did word it such that we could have multiple Obligators. We could have multiple Obligators, each with different duties. They could be from different Cantons perhaps. 

Also, I think that becoming an Obligator or Inquisitor should be more of a change, mainly to stay true to the Mistborn world. Inquisitors and Obligators aren’t apart of Houses. They aren’t really Nobles. I think both roles need an overhaul, and it could be quite interesting. Perhaps they can’t make proposals, and the only way they can earn Atium is to do their Role specific duties. We’d need to further define those duties though. Really the whole Role system could be changed for the better. 

[+Doomstick]

I propose that the current role known as the obligator is changed to the High Prelan and the Obligator manages bets (new role)

[ElectrumSavant]

4 hours ago, Kings_way said:

I have been invited by Chinkoln (house Otter)

I will be joining as House Hollow.

Welcome to the Final Empire, Kings_way of House Hollow! As you were referred, you and Chinkoln get a free 20 Atium to start with.

4 hours ago, Kings_way said:

I propose for a fine of -8 atrium be given for rejected proposals, regardless of line or word count.

This is already the case, as a result of Truthwatcher's earlier proposal.

4 hours ago, Danex said:

You will notice that in that post I did word it such that we could have multiple Obligators. We could have multiple Obligators, each with different duties. They could be from different Cantons perhaps. 

Also, I think that becoming an Obligator or Inquisitor should be more of a change, mainly to stay true to the Mistborn world. Inquisitors and Obligators aren’t apart of Houses. They aren’t really Nobles. I think both roles need an overhaul, and it could be quite interesting. Perhaps they can’t make proposals, and the only way they can earn Atium is to do their Role specific duties. We’d need to further define those duties though. Really the whole Role system could be changed for the better. 

I could certainly get behind a bigger rehaul of how the Obligator/Inquisitor system works. The Inquisitor, for instance, don't have that much to do at present other than hope that the Obligator makes a mistake. I'm not sure about taking away the ability to make proposals, but perhaps some tweaking of the way the Senate works... Regardless, new ideas are welcome, and I invite people to offer suggestions for how to improve the current roles, even if you don't have a solid proposal worked out yet.

3 hours ago, Doomstick said:

I propose that the current role known as the obligator is changed to the High Prelan and the Obligator manages bets (new role)

17 hours ago, Danex said:

I propose that any bets between players must be seen and approved by an Obligator. If the bet is a game of chance, it is the Obligator’s duty to be sure the chances are fair, or at least proportionate to the bets. In some cases, the Obligator might facilitate the bet. Example: House A bets House B 10 Atium that a coin will land on heads. An Obligator with no ties to House A or B then flips a coin irl. They then report the results in the thread. In a case such as this, where the Obligator actually facilitates a bet, it is recommended that the Obligator be tipped for their services, but this is not required. Obligators may choose whether they wish to facilitate any given bet. If no Obligator wishes to do so, the bet cannot proceed. (This is why you should tip them.)

Accepted. I'm accepting both of these proposals (so Doomstick and Danex both get 16 Atium). All of the responsibilities/powers that used to belong to the position of "Obligator" are now held by the "High Prelan". A new position is created to match Danex's old proposal here, called "Obligator". There can be multiple Obligators, but only one High Prelan.

As such, @Illwei is now the High Prelan. We don't have an Obligator at present, so anyone who wants the job can now volunteer.

[Mist]

I volunteer as obligator, although I do have school, so I am less active than may be desirable.