ElectrumSavant

Imperial Nomic: The Final Empire

Vote on the next Nomic theme!   10 members have voted

  1. 1. What do you think the theme of the Imperial Nomic Sequel should be? Mark as many as you want.

    • Scadrial (Era 2 Elendel)
    • Nalthis (Hallendren Court of Gods)
    • Roshar (Alethi Highprincedoms)
    • Roshar (Azish Bureaucracy)
    • Sel (Nobility in Post-Reod Arelon)
    • Sel (Factions in the Rose Empire)
    • Taldain (Lossandin Profession Heads)
    • Scadrial (Well of Ascension time period)
    • Scadrial (Immediate Post-Catacendre)
      0
    • Cytoverse (Alien cultures in the Superiority)
    • Alcatraz (Free Kingdoms)
    • Reckoners (Epics in Newcago)

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532 posts in this topic

Just now, SirWolfe said:

Thank you (sorry Illwei, I forgot to tell you that anyone could have picked up the accusation. :P). Though worry not, Doomstick, I shall not hide my post. Why would I?

B)

 

1 minute ago, Illwei said:

I disagree that that's allowed anymore, as the census post has been fixed since then. I'm fine with it going through.

there is evidence that the mistake happened though, and you already admitted to it

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HOUSE RELIDAN'S STILL OFFICIAL CENSUS
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Lord Ruler
ElectrumSavant 

NOBLE HOUSES
(306) - House Relidan (Illwei): High Prelan
(300) - House Wafre (DoomStick)
(185) - House Soliel (The_Truthwatcher): Inquisitor
(99) - House Ightejyw (Danex)
(85) - House Tellen (Negative_Null): Favored House
(78) - House Hollow (Kings_way)
(69) - House Otter (Chinkoln)
(65) - House Mist (Mist) Obligator
(80) - House Aot (SirWolfe)
(26) - House Fura (Furamirionind)
(10) - House Fadran (Channelknight Fadran)

PROPOSALS
DoomStick - Senate votes must last for at least 48 hours, but then may be ended.

Edited by Illwei
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2 minutes ago, Illwei said:

HOUSE RELIDAN'S STILL OFFICIAL CENSUS
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Lord Ruler
ElectrumSavant 

NOBLE HOUSES
(306) - House Relidan (Illwei): High Prelan
(300) - House Wafre (DoomStick)
(185) - House Soliel (The_Truthwatcher): Inquisitor
(99) - House Ightejyw (Danex)
(85) - House Tellen (Negative_Null): Favored House
(78) - House Hollow (Kings_way)
(69) - House Otter (Chinkoln)
(65) - House Mist (Mist) Obligator
(80) - House Aot (SirWolfe)
(26) - House Fura (Furamirionind)
(10) - House Fadran (Channelknight Fadran)

There's been a miscount. House Relidan should only have 290. As your previous census listed you as having 354 Atium, and I was paid 64 atium. Do you wish to resolve this matter through money? *Laughs maniacally*

Edited by SirWolfe
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Just now, SirWolfe said:

There's been a miscount. House Relidan should only have 290. As your previous census listed you as having 354 Atium, and I was paid 64 atium. Do you wish to resolve this matter through money?

haha. Ever census I post counts for 16, therefore I now have 306. :P.

2 minutes ago, Doomstick said:

there is evidence that the mistake happened though, and you already admitted to it

As I said, I'm fine with letting it go through, especially now that we're on another page.

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3 minutes ago, Illwei said:

HOUSE RELIDAN'S STILL OFFICIAL CENSUS
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Lord Ruler
ElectrumSavant 

NOBLE HOUSES
(306) - House Relidan (Illwei): High Prelan
(300) - House Wafre (DoomStick)
(185) - House Soliel (The_Truthwatcher): Inquisitor
(99) - House Ightejyw (Danex)
(85) - House Tellen (Negative_Null): Favored House
(78) - House Hollow (Kings_way)
(69) - House Otter (Chinkoln)
(65) - House Mist (Mist) Obligator
(80) - House Aot (SirWolfe)
(26) - House Fura (Furamirionind)
(10) - House Fadran (Channelknight Fadran)

I Call For Judgement!

my proposal was not listed

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1 minute ago, Doomstick said:

I Call For Judgement!

my proposal was not listed

Oh, this is delightful!

Also, is each page it's own mini-round? 

Edited by SirWolfe
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4 hours ago, Doomstick said:

I Call For Judgement!

my proposal was not listed

I did not list it as I realized after last page that it was not actually re-proposed. You posted an amendment to your proposal after your proposal was rejected. 

Edited by Illwei
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9 minutes ago, Doomstick said:

I Call For Judgement!

my proposal was not listed

this would be judgement for not following the rules, not a fine of 25%, as pending rule changes are not in the rule of census mistakes

 

6 minutes ago, Illwei said:

I did not list it as I realized after last cycle that it was not actually re-proposed. You posted an amendment to your proposal after your proposal was rejected.

I did repropose it

23 hours ago, Doomstick said:

ammend to to total number of votes cast

also this

Edited by Doomstick
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26 minutes ago, Doomstick said:

I did repropose it

Ah. Okay. I'll trust you and put it back in.


Anyways, it's been a while since I did this so might as well take another shot at it. @ElectrumSavant

Clarifications, Rule Names

Spoiler

Clarification, Rule Name 1:

201- Establishing the High Prelan - The Lord Ruler or the Senate with a 3/4 vote can appoint any one person at a time who volunteers for the position as the High Prelan. The Lord Ruler or the Senate with a 3/4 vote can change the High Prelan at any time.

202- Duties of the High Prelan - The High Prelan has the role of posting a Census no more than once per page. This Census should include a list of all Active players and their current amount of Atium, the current roles, and any pending rule changes. The High Prelan gets 16 Atium for every Census posted.

Clarification, Rule Name 2:

207- Establishing the Inquisitor - The Inquisitor is chosen by the Lord Ruler or the Senate with a 3/4 vote. The Inquisitor can be removed or replaced at any time by the Lord Ruler or the Senate with a 3/4 vote

208 - Duties of the Inquisitor - The Inquisitor Polices the thread. If an Inquisitor catches a house making more than 5 bets per 3 pages, then the house loses the ability to use their Mistborn for (an additional) 3 cycles and the Inquisitor receives 10 Atium. The Inquisitor also watches the High Prelan's Census. If the High Prelan miscounts in any way then it is the Inquisitor's job to notice it. Doing so rewards the Inquisitor with 50% of the High Prelan's lost Atium (ie. The High Prelan had 80 Atium when they miscounted. They lose 20 total, and the Inquisitor collects 10. In cases where it turns out to be an odd number the Inquisitor takes the smallest. 25 becomes 12.)

Clarification, Rule Name 3:

209- Establishing the Obligator - Obligators are chosen by the Lord Ruler or the Senate with a 3/4 vote. Obligators can be removed or replaced at any time by the Lord Ruler or the Senate with a 3/4 vote There can be multiple Obligators at once.

210 - Duties of the Obligators - Any bets between players must be seen and approved by an Obligator. If the bet is a game of chance, it is the Obligator’s duty to be sure the chances are fair, or at least proportionate to the bets. In some cases, the Obligator might facilitate the bet. Example: House A bets House B 10 Atium that a coin will land on heads. An Obligator with no ties to House A or B then flips a coin IRL. They then report the results in the thread. In a case such as this, where the Obligator actually facilitates a bet, it is recommended that the Obligator be tipped for their services, but this is not required. Obligators may choose whether they wish to facilitate any given bet. If no Obligator wishes to do so, the bet cannot proceed. (This is why you should tip them.) Obligators are appointed and removed freely by the Lord Ruler. There can be multiple Obligators at once.

 

Amendment 1:

301- The Hathsin Act: The Lord Ruler can designate a Favored House that will run the Atium mines at the Pits of Hathsin. The Favored House will get 5 Atium at the end of each page. The Lord Ruler can grant or take away this role at any time for any reason. The house with the Atium mines must include a statement to the effect, "I am mining Atium" to earn Atium for that page. The Favored House looses it's position if they do not mine Atium for 5 Pages in a row.

Edited by Illwei
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and this:

Previous: 

302- The Senate Charter: The Senate is made up of all Active Noble Houses. Any rule change can be seconded by a Noble. Once seconded, it will simultaneously go to the Lord Ruler and to the Senate. A rule change can be passed by either group. The Senate must pass it by 2/3 vote. The 2/3 vote is based on the total number of votes among the Nobles, rounded up. If a rule change is accepted or rejected by the Senate before the LR, then the rule change is law and the LR can't accept or reject it afterward.

New:

302- The Senate Charter: The Senate is made up of all Active Noble Houses. Any rule change can be seconded by a Noble. Once seconded, it will simultaneously go to the Lord Ruler and to the Senate. A rule change can be passed by either group. The Senate must pass it by 2/3 vote. The 2/3 vote is based on the total number of votes cast, rounded up. If a rule change is accepted or rejected by the Senate before the LR, then the rule change is law and the LR can't accept or reject it afterward.

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4 hours ago, SirWolfe said:

Also, is each page it's own mini-round? 

Just saw this. 

Uh, I mean, I have been treating it as such, and some rules have been made that have sorta treated it as such? so...kinda? I just keep accidentally calling other pages cycles because I spend 75% of my time on SE

Edited by Illwei
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7 hours ago, Illwei said:

However, I have a counter proposal for you. I will pay you 32 Atium to just drop this call for judgement. if it does go through you don't earn any Atium anyways, so this is a win-win! 

7 hours ago, Doomstick said:

@ElectrumSavant is that legal?

I have established in the past that if a charge is dropped, regardless of the reason, then it no longer requires an official Judgment. So I'm fine with bribery to remove a Call for Judgment. The scheming is thematic, which I like. To be clear, though, if I had answered the Judgment before it was officially retracted, it would have been too late to retract it.

7 hours ago, Doomstick said:

I call for judgement on the same grounds as the dropped accusation, the quoted post as well as the posts quoted in my previous post are evidence if  Illwei and Wolfe hide their posts

7 hours ago, Illwei said:

I disagree that that's allowed anymore, as the census post has been fixed since then. I'm fine with it going through.

Judgment

You're right that the mistake did occur at one point, and there is evidence to prove it. However, because the mistake was fixed before the Call for Judgment, then the defendant was no longer actively violating a rule. I find the defendant innocent, and per Rule 403 Doomstick of House Wafre is fined 8 Atium, the fine for a rejected proposal.

7 hours ago, Doomstick said:

I Call For Judgement!

my proposal was not listed

7 hours ago, Doomstick said:

this would be judgement for not following the rules, not a fine of 25%, as pending rule changes are not in the rule of census mistakes

Judgment

Doomstick's argument is sound. His proposed rule changes were supposed to be listed in the Census per Rule 201. A standard fine is about 5 Atium, and Illwei is High Prelan, making the total penalty 10 Atium taken from Illwei. 5 Atium is awarded to Doomstick per the Compensation Act.

All three of @Illwei's clarifications/rule names are accepted.

7 hours ago, Illwei said:

301- The Hathsin Act: The Lord Ruler can designate a Favored House that will run the Atium mines at the Pits of Hathsin. The Favored House will get 5 Atium at the end of each page. The Lord Ruler can grant or take away this role at any time for any reason. The house with the Atium mines must include a statement to the effect, "I am mining Atium" to earn Atium for that page. The Favored House loses it's position if they do not mine Atium for 5 Pages in a row.

Accepted.

6 hours ago, Doomstick said:

302- The Senate Charter: The Senate is made up of all Active Noble Houses. Any rule change can be seconded by a Noble. Once seconded, it will simultaneously go to the Lord Ruler and to the Senate. A rule change can be passed by either group. The Senate must pass it by 2/3 vote. The 2/3 vote is based on the total number of votes cast, rounded up. If a rule change is accepted or rejected by the Senate before the LR, then the rule change is law and the LR can't accept or reject it afterward.

Accepted.

@Doomstick, I'm still considering your amended Rule of Voting Period

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23 minutes ago, ElectrumSavant said:

All three of @Illwei's clarifications/rule names are accepted.

is that 30 Atium?

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Okay, I’m not entirely sure which specific rules these proposals are amending, there’s a lot of crossed wires here. I think the whole senate/chancellor thing needs to be rewritten, even if nothing is actually changed, it’s kinda confusing. 
 

I propose an amendment: that if the chancellor has another role that gains them Atium from the Lord Ruler, they may not vote in the senate. If they have no role BUT chancellor, they may vote. This is to ensure that the Lord Ruler has no influence in the senate. 

I propose an amendment: that if a house has a role that gains them Atium from the Lord Ruler, they may not vote or be in the senate. This is to ensure that the Lord Ruler has no influence in the senate. 
 

I propose the New Terminology Rule: I propose that we use the following new terms:   If a house is “Brought to Trial” it means another house has “Called for Judgement” against them. The house that was Brought to Trial is the “Defendant” and the house that Called for Judgement is the “Prosecutor”. If the Call for Judgement was dropped by the Prosecutor before the Lord Ruler notices, the Call for Judgement was settled “Out of Court”. 

I propose the Double Trial rule: if a house is found breaking a rule, and they are Brought to Trial, they may not be Brought to Trial for that rule infraction again, even if the Prosecutor dropped the charges and no official fine was made. (Basically what just happened with Doomstick but official)

I propose the Useless One Time Rule: the house who posts the 7th message after this rule is approved (Approval Message-1-2-3-4-5-6-7) must acknowledge this rule, or else they will be fined 30% of all their Atium. 

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5 hours ago, Danex said:

I propose the Useless One Time Rule: the house who posts the 7th message after this rule is approved (Approval Message-1-2-3-4-5-6-7) must acknowledge this rule, or else they will be fined 30% of all their Atium.

I would like to amend this to if it is acknowledged, they gain 30% of their atium, the post count does not count posts from the Lord Ruler. Also, the post count is increases to 8

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12 hours ago, Illwei said:

is that 30 Atium?

10 Atium per clarification, 5 Atium per new Rule name

13 hours ago, ElectrumSavant said:

I'm still considering your amended Rule of Voting Period

Approved. So, once posted in the Senate PM by the Chancellor, a seconded rule change is available to vote on for 48 hours. After 48 hours pass, anyone may post in the Senate PM that the vote is over. The total needed for the 2/3 majority is based on the number of people who voted in between the time that the rule was posted in the Senate PM and the time that someone announced that the vote was over. After that point, the Chancellor reports on the passed or rejected proposal in the main thread. This was @Doomstick's proposal.

5 hours ago, Danex said:

I propose an amendment: that if the chancellor has another role that gains them Atium from the Lord Ruler, they may not vote in the senate. If they have no role BUT chancellor, they may vote. This is to ensure that the Lord Ruler has no influence in the senate. 

5 hours ago, Danex said:

I propose an amendment: that if a house has a role that gains them Atium from the Lord Ruler, they may not vote or be in the senate. This is to ensure that the Lord Ruler has no influence in the senate. 

These are both Rejected. If the various roles had more power I might consider this, but as is none of the roles are powerful enough that removing them from the Senate seems necessary.

 
5 hours ago, Danex said:

I propose the New Terminology Rule: I propose that we use the following new terms:   If a house is “Brought to Trial” it means another house has “Called for Judgement” against them. The house that was Brought to Trial is the “Defendant” and the house that Called for Judgement is the “Prosecutor”. If the Call for Judgement was dropped by the Prosecutor before the Lord Ruler notices, the Call for Judgement was settled “Out of Court”. 

Approved. Terminology is very welcome.

5 hours ago, Danex said:

I propose the Double Trial rule: if a house is found breaking a rule, and they are Brought to Trial, they may not be Brought to Trial for that rule infraction again, even if the Prosecutor dropped the charges and no official fine was made. (Basically what just happened with Doomstick but official)

Approved. To clarify, this is for SPECIFIC INSTANCES of an infraction. If you break a rule twice, someone has you Brought to Trial for one of those instances, and it is settled Out of Court, you can still be brought to trial for the other instance.

5 hours ago, Danex said:

I propose the Useless One Time Rule: the house who posts the 7th message after this rule is approved (Approval Message-1-2-3-4-5-6-7) must acknowledge this rule, or else they will be fined 30% of all their Atium. 

Rejected. Sorry, but it seems unnecessarily difficult to manage.

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19 hours ago, ElectrumSavant said:

These are both Rejected. If the various roles had more power I might consider this, but as is none of the roles are powerful enough that removing them from the Senate seems necessary.

The role’s power isn’t what’s in question, it’s that the lord ruler has too much sway over them. You could threaten to remove their role or something if they didn’t vote how you wanted. Anyway, I expected you to reject these, which is why I am formally asking that someone second them, and we can have the senate vote.

if they are seconded well have to just do it here as the chancellor has yet to be formally selected and we don’t have a PM

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Some notes and housekeeping:

@Channelknight Fadran, @Furamirionind, and @The_Truthwatcher have not posted in the thread in two weeks and as a result are now Inactive per The Activated Activity Act Regarding Player Activity, Now Active. As such, they are not to be counted for purposes of the Senate and do not need to be included in the census. They will become Active again if they post again in the thread.

I am revoking the title of Inquisitor from The_Truthwatcher. If anyone wants the title of Inquisitor (it is mostly useless right now, but I am open to suggestions for changing its abilities), they may volunteer for the position.

@Negative_Null has not mined Atium for the last 5 pages, and so per the Hathsin Act is no longer the Favored House. I will keep my eyes out for the next person who makes a really good proposal.

@Illwei of House Relidan has three votes for Chancellor (from Illwei, Doomstick, and Kings_way). There are 8 Active Noble Houses, meaning Illwei still needs two votes if he wants a majority. Doomstick has withdrawn his application, meaning that right now Illwei is the only candidate running for Chancellor.

The Senate has 8 Houses, so a 2/3 vote to pass or reject a rule change that has not yet been reviewed by the LR takes 6 votes. A 3/4 vote to overrule the LR's decision on a rule change also takes 6 votes.

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Quote

Please don't make me active again. I am sorry and I should have told you this earlier but I am being less active now and I will come back in 2 weeks.

 

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I approve of House Relidan becoming Chancellor.

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I (officially) do not approve of Relidan becoming chancellor. It’s not the house I disapprove of, it’s his role. As High Prelan, Relidan has too much connection to the Lord Ruler, and the senate is supposed to be an opposite and balancing force to the Lord Ruler. 

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The Chancellory Election

Illwei now has 4 votes for Chancellor (Illwei, Doomstick, Kings_way, and Mist). Illwei only needs one more vote to become Chancellor. Danex has officially voiced disapproval of Illwei becoming Chancellor, but has not voted for anyone else (no one besides Illwei has announced their candidacy). @Chinkoln and @SirWolfe are the only people who have not made a public vote in the Chancellory election.

Some Rule Change Suggestions:

  • A fourth status that the LR can put rule changes into (besides Approved, Rejected, and Pending). Something along the lines of "Passed" or "Ignored" or "Abstained". In this fourth status, the proposed rule change has been officially ignored by the LR and so the LR will not make any decision about it. However, if the officially ignored rule change is seconded then the Senate can still vote on the rule change with a 2/3 majority instead of the 3/4 majority usually required to change the LR's decision. In effect, by passing the LR is turning the decision over to the Senate. The proposer doesn't gain or lose Atium from an ignored proposal.
  • A full rework of the Inquisitor role (which is currently vacant)
  • A law clarifying what happens if the LR breaks a rule. I've never been Called to Judgment, but in theory, it can happen. But, the LR cannot gain or lose Atium. So, what happens? Does everyone else gain that much Atium? Should the LR have some kind of "Respect" points that goes up when he/she makes decisions on rule changes and goes down when he/she breaks a rule? Or does the LR just look at the mirror and go, "Shame on you, Lord Ruler!"
  • Some established fines for breaking rules. It would make my job easier if there was a specific rule detailing the standard fine for breaking a rule.
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6 minutes ago, ElectrumSavant said:

LR cannot gain or lose Atium.

Really? I was under the impression that the lord ruler could get atium, they just couldn't win while they were lord ruler.

Also, propose the Abstaining act, saying that if a proposal that is abstained, It can be seconded and brought to the Senate. The senate only needs 2/3 majority to pass this proposal. A proposal is abstained if the LR declares it so, or if the LR doesn't make a decision about the proposal for 3 days or 3 pages, whichever is longer. If an abstained proposal is not seconded for 3 days or 3 pages (again, the longer) after becoming abstained, it is considered rejected. The proposer does not lose atium for this.

Edited by Kings_way
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I propose the Rule of Standard Fines:

The fine for breaking a rule is 8 atium, double if a house has a role

 

I propose the Rule of Compounding:

The Lord Ruler has a maximum of 16 atium charges (or gold charges if atium charges is too confusing). If the Lord Ruler breaks a rule, they lose 2 charges. Once per 4 pages, the Lord Ruler may declare that they are compound age, giving them 1 more charge. If the Lord Ruler has 0 atium charges, they die, and the same process used to appoint a new Lord Ruler after 2 weeks of inactivity is used to appoint a new Lord Ruler. Any new Lord Ruler Starts with 8 charges. if the lord Ruler does not compound age by the 5th page after their last compounding, they lose 1 charge. (last sentence can be omitted if the Lord Ruler wishes)

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10 hours ago, Kings_way said:

Really? I was under the impression that the lord ruler could get atium, they just couldn't win while they were lord ruler.

Yep. It's a part of Rule 101, the Sliver of Infinity Act.

10 hours ago, Kings_way said:

propose the Abstaining act, saying that if a proposal that is abstained, It can be seconded and brought to the Senate. The senate only needs 2/3 majority to pass this proposal. A proposal is abstained if the LR declares it so, or if the LR doesn't make a decision about the proposal for 3 days or 3 pages, whichever is longer. If an abstained proposal is not seconded for 3 days or 3 pages (again, the longer) after becoming abstained, it is considered rejected. The proposer does not lose atium for this.

Approved. For clarity, when I Abstain a proposal I will color my response blue.

9 hours ago, Doomstick said:

The Lord Ruler has a maximum of 16 atium charges (or gold charges if atium charges is too confusing). If the Lord Ruler breaks a rule, they lose 2 charges. Once per 4 pages, the Lord Ruler may declare that they are compound age, giving them 1 more charge. If the Lord Ruler has 0 atium charges, they die, and the same process used to appoint a new Lord Ruler after 2 weeks of inactivity is used to appoint a new Lord Ruler. Any new Lord Ruler Starts with 8 charges. if the lord Ruler does not compound age by the 5th page after their last compounding, they lose 1 charge. (last sentence can be omitted if the Lord Ruler wishes)

Approved. I will call these Atium charges "Youth" to make it more clear.

Edit: Somehow I missed @Doomstick's Rule of Standard Fines the first time. It is Approved.

Edited by ElectrumSavant
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