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RoW Chapter 8 Discussion

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Renarin did this same sort of revelation to Adolin. He used his form of Illumination to show him a better version of himself. This time it was rather superpowered. Did he know he was saving Kaladin or was he just trying to find him and Moash got caught in the light? But Moash didn't want to be reminded of who he could be or could have been. 

Just because Renarin's spren has been corrupted it doesn't necessarily mean it's broken or evil. It just means it works differently than it will for other Truthwatchers. And Renarin is the joker wildcard in the Diagram. He blocks Odium's future vision. 

And now Kaladin has to tell Laral what happened and he will again believe he is at fault and has failed someone.

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38 minutes ago, Soby said:

1. I thought anyone can regrow anything if they become a squire or knights It’s just that the Truthwatchers and Edgedancers can’t heal others if the wound has been there too long. Like Renarin couldn’t give Gaz his eye back, but Gaz gets his eye when he takes in his own Stormlight. 
 

2. I can’t help but tie Renarin’s part in this chapter to the vision that Taravangian had with Odium at the end of OB. Renarin is the dark horse...And I love how similar he seems in some ways to Tien. 

I agree. Renarin seems to play the role of spoiler for the Diagram. I said it earlier, but I think that Moash's plan either came from Odium or the Diagram. I think this will give Kaladin the time he needs to finally confront what scares him about the fourth ideal, When he does that, I think that will help break the stalemate and start a snowball effect.. Brandon likes to do that.

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Not sure if anyone else has said this, but the way Syl describes how the fabrial effects her kind of reminds me of how copperclouds dull allomantic pulses.
It’s probably not the exact same effect, I don’t think a coppercloud would turn off a surgebinder’s powers, but maybe they are related? Maybe the fabrial uses copper in the same way detector fabrials use bronze?

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That's... well, I would describe that as a hypothesis worth testing. I think the fabrial was specifically targeting the bond between spren and human, which is why Syl says she feels faded, Kaladin can still feel Stormlight inside, and the Fused can still use his powers. Which is not a completely implausible thing for copper to do if combined with the right spren. Like it's dampening Syl's ability to sense Kaladin, or something like that. 

I imagine the type of metal used would be something Navani could figure out pretty quickly, so hopefully we'll get to see that. 

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11 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Re-shephir seemed pretty dumb. Shallan compared her to axehound in Oathbringer. 

Shallan has little to no experience with non-human intelligences. Congregating to imbibe liquids contaminated with a poison? If you are an alien not sharing our psychology understanding us will be a problem.

7 hours ago, Shardsplinter said:

So, the main question is do we have an example of the surge of Progression being used to heal a long term injury???

We have seen it being used to give a tree a specific shape it would not naturally assume. The issue is that we haven't seen a true master of Progression. Everybody had had the ability for a few months at most or did not know they had the ability. They may simply suck at using it.

9 hours ago, Grahamfactor said:

2.  I also wonder if Renarin will be able to restore Roshone; he hasn't been dead for very long and he was killed with a normal knife...

I guess he will give priority to getting Kaladin out. He is not a Windrunner or Edgedancer. His priorities are different.

9 hours ago, Grahamfactor said:

3.  I'm not too proud to say that Brandon tricked me into thinking that Kaladin had said new WORDS when he said he just wanted to save his friends and a big light appeared.  Brandon trolling us with his own patterns.

Indeed

9 hours ago, Grahamfactor said:

5.  It is interesting that Renarin disrupts Odium's influence on Moash in a similar way that Odium or the unmade (and the fabrial) disrupted Syl's connection to Kaladin.

So did he create a Lightweaving at all? A Lightweaver (or normal Truthwatcher) creates a true picture. It would show on film. What about Renarin?

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Posted (edited)

Since Roshar seem on the verge of dabbling with the metallic arts...Kaladin just needs to figure out f electrum. Use that depression a little differently.

Edited by RazeU
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7 hours ago, Gilphon said:

That's... well, I would describe that as a hypothesis worth testing. I think the fabrial was specifically targeting the bond between spren and human, which is why Syl says she feels faded, Kaladin can still feel Stormlight inside, and the Fused can still use his powers. Which is not a completely implausible thing for copper to do if combined with the right spren. Like it's dampening Syl's ability to sense Kaladin, or something like that. 

I think it just makes it more difficult for Syl to manifest in the physical realm.  The reason Kaladin's powers stop working is because Syl is too far away.

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12 hours ago, Karger said:

It is the difference between objective and subjective reality.  In point of fact what R is doing seems more in line with a normal Lightweaver then a normal Truthwatcher.  He is showing a potential future or maybe a "what could have been."  I wonder if this is what shardic combat in the spiritual realm looks like.  Basically a complex argument that involves both shards using willpower to attempt to create axioms that bind other shards in ways that their opponents can't bring themselves to acknowledge.  Maybe Odium's bonds are basically an argument by Tanavast that "we are one" somthing Odium can't by his vary nature acknowledge.

Yeah, could be.  But I guess my argument there is that Renarin's motivations are different.  You see what Shallan does in tWoK and WoR - she makes drawings to inspire people to become better.  But she does it for the most part because she is trying to get them to act in a certain way.  Shallan shows these visions because doing it advances her own goals.  She also thinks it's helping them become better, but that's not really her primary motivation.  She's also being subtle and sneaky about it.  She's not trying to show them they've been lying to themselves, she's just saying they could be different.

Compare with Renarin - he shows Moash the image which is challenging lies with truth.  Moash goes on and on about how no one can escape the pain and mundane difficulties of life and that no matter what happens life will always beat you down.  Renarin fights that by showing an image of the truth - what could have been, revealing that all of what Moash has just said is a lie.  He's just up front about it and direct.  

Who knows though.  It's a cool idea, but I'm sure we'll learn more when the rest of the book is out.

I think Sanderson does like this kind of idea of mental conflict - showing people your vision of the world and the future and forcing them to challenge it.  Remember the end of the Wheel of Time and the final "battle of ideas" between Rand and the Dark One.  Granted, that section was probably written or heavily outlined by Robert Jordan.  But still, something he's been a part of.

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4 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Yeah, could be.  But I guess my argument there is that Renarin's motivations are different.  You see what Shallan does in tWoK and WoR - she makes drawings to inspire people to become better.  But she does it for the most part because she is trying to get them to act in a certain way.  Shallan shows these visions because doing it advances her own goals.  She also thinks it's helping them become better, but that's not really her primary motivation.  She's also being subtle and sneaky about it.  She's not trying to show them they've been lying to themselves, she's just saying they could be different.

Compare with Renarin - he shows Moash the image which is challenging lies with truth.  Moash goes on and on about how no one can escape the pain and mundane difficulties of life and that no matter what happens life will always beat you down.  Renarin fights that by showing an image of the truth - what could have been, revealing that all of what Moash has just said is a lie.  He's just up front about it and direct.  

Shallans actions by their very nature are going to be much more versatile.  You are, I think, also making it sound rather sinister.  Art is not inherently malicious any more then investigative journalism is inherently good.

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1 hour ago, Karger said:

Shallans actions by their very nature are going to be much more versatile.  You are, I think, also making it sound rather sinister.  Art is not inherently malicious any more then investigative journalism is inherently good.

Yeah - fair.  I wasn't intending to make it seem sinister, but maybe less.. noble?  If that makes sense.  That what Shallan does with her drawings generally isn't a moral action either good or bad and she doesn't mean it to be.  While what Renarin did here was intended to be a moral action.

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Posted (edited)

On 25/08/2020 at 9:41 PM, What's a Seawolf? said:

"Kaladin knelt, bathed in that warm light. Yes, warmth. Kaladin felt warm. Surely… if there truly was a deity… it watched him from within that light."

This reminds me exactly of the warm light vision that Dalinar receives at the end of WoR.  At the time, Dalinar had a budding connection to Honor, but also a connection to Odium.  (Being groomed for his champion and all.)

Now we have Renarin producing a similar occurrence, and we know he has a spren that is part Honor/part Odium.

The way this warm light is described, and the mention of 'if there truly was a deity,' makes me believe that this warm light is a side effect or combination of Honor and Odium, and a sign that the two will eventually be combined into one.  (The same could be applied to Cultivation and Odium.)

I'm more convinced than ever that at least two Rosharian Shards will be combined, and I still think 'Justice' will be the new Shard. 

I like this idea a lot. But withy a slight addition. Dalinar was connected to all three Honor, cultivation and odium at the time. 
And so is Renarin, he comes from the cultivation’s side of the KRs spectrum, honor is obviously involved and odium-y corruption on his spren. So could it be that all three shards when combine, the white warm light is the result? Could we have a Tri-shard on our hand? 

And about Shallan.... what more truths? There are worse memories in her past than killing both her parents!!? This girl is really scaring me !! 

Edited by The Traveller
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Posted (edited)

 

13 hours ago, GoddessIMHO said:

Renarin did this same sort of revelation to Adolin. He used his form of Illumination to show him a better version of himself. This time it was rather superpowered. Did he know he was saving Kaladin or was he just trying to find him and Moash got caught in the light? But Moash didn't want to be reminded of who he could be or could have been. 

Just because Renarin's spren has been corrupted it doesn't necessarily mean it's broken or evil. It just means it works differently than it will for other Truthwatchers. And Renarin is the joker wildcard in the Diagram. He blocks Odium's future vision. 

Renarin also used his light to make a thunderclast unsummon. It wasn't clear how generalized that power was.

Could the light-unsummon be used by any radiant, only truthwatchers and a neighbour order, just truthwatchers, or just corrupted truthwatchers? Truthwatchers are in the middle of the order diagram just like bondsmiths, so maybe they have some pivotal power or influence as well?


Edited by teknopathetic
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I hope for more Renarin after this chapter, i want to see his growth as a person, and also more about Truthwatchers. The implications beyond their use of Illumination could be really amazing. 

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6 hours ago, agrabes said:

Compare with Renarin - he shows Moash the image which is challenging lies with truth.

Which lies? Is Moash lieing? Kaladin's reaction suggest rather that he did voice something Kaladin never dared admit.

And which truth? The image Renarin generated is clearly counterfactual. Calling that a truth is stretching that concept.

 

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11 hours ago, Karger said:

I think it just makes it more difficult for Syl to manifest in the physical realm.  The reason Kaladin's powers stop working is because Syl is too far away.

This makes sense to me, especially with how Syl describes it. It feels weird for me to have a fabrial be able to interact with someone’s spirit web to the point of weakening a nahel bond.

It’s interesting that Kal and the edgedancer can’t use their stormlight to heal. I’ve always thought that stormlight will just heal you due to its nature as investiture while you hold it (similar to the energy boost it gives you), but maybe the fabrial repressing the healing implies otherwise.

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8 hours ago, The Traveller said:

And about Shallan.... what more truths? There are worse memories in her past than killing both her parents!!? This girl is really scaring me !! 

What ever it is it happened when she was very young and first bonded Pattern. 
 

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15 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Renarin also used his light to make a thunderclast unsummon. It wasn't clear how generalized that power was.

Could the light-unsummon be used by any radiant, only truthwatchers and a neighbour order, just truthwatchers, or just corrupted truthwatchers? Truthwatchers are in the middle of the order diagram just like bondsmiths, so maybe they have some pivotal power or influence as well?


The impression I got is that whatever Renarin's light did to make the thunderclast go may be similar to what he did to Moash. In OB, Glys basically said "It will fear you", in relation to making the thunderclast go with the light. Again, we don't know exactly what that light did, but it was a beacon of light. Now, when he shows up after Kaladin, there's a burst of light, a presumably better version of Moash is seen, while the real Moash first shies away from the light, fights the empty air, and then rushes back up the tunnel.

Maybe it shows the target something they don't want to face? I don't know what could possibly scare a thunderclast, but Glys explicitly commented on fear there on the thunderclast scene. And Moash seemed pretty shaken now. Possibly afraid of that brief thing he saw. Would be pretty interesting if, one way or the other, that light made people face things (say, truths) they wouldn't want to face.

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Posted (edited)

On 25.8.2020 at 4:41 PM, robardin said:

She murdered her father. She killed her mother. What is left in terms of painful, deeply repressed, life-altering memories in her life that we know or have hints about?

Perhaps she killed her twin (or two of a triplet).
Otherwise plenty forms of suffered abuse come to mind, but I hope Brandon doesn't go to that.

About Moash, Kaladin and Renarin: Everything I would like to say has already been said before in this thread. To say it with Wit: "What is it we value?...timeliness. I fear you (I) may be too late..."

Edited by Pattern
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18 hours ago, The Traveller said:

And about Shallan.... what more truths? There are worse memories in her past than killing both her parents!!? This girl is really scaring me !! 

As a child when creating her ideal family/life, she described part of it to Hoid as "mother loves me" and given her mother tried to kill her upon seeing she had bonded a spren... life wasn't sunshine and rainbows before the killing started.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Agent34 said:

As a child when creating her ideal family/life, she described part of it to Hoid as "mother loves me" and given her mother tried to kill her upon seeing she had bonded a spren... life wasn't sunshine and rainbows before the killing started.

Whoa, that's dark. That even her cherished happy memories of her mother, from before she "inexplicably" turned against her in a murderous rage, were ones she'd fabricated for herself.

That surely would qualify as a "deeper secret" than what we've seen from her already, and follow suit in terms of her suppressing bad memories of What Really Happened in her childhood... But oh, the poor girl. :(.

Say, what if Shallan isn't her father and mother's daughter? That is, what if Shallan is Lin's daughter by another woman (out of wedlock)? That would explain why he was so protective of her while her "mother" might want to kill her... And puts the "she's one of THEM!" comment in a different light. After all, what revelation of the THEM subgroup could turn a mother against her own child all of a sudden, unless she had already felt like this girl wasn't really her own child? Skybreaker Acolyte vs. Lightweaver notwithstanding?

Or even by a parshwoman slave, so Shallan's actually half-listener?! NAHHHHH....

Edited by robardin
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18 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Which lies? Is Moash lieing? Kaladin's reaction suggest rather that he did voice something Kaladin never dared admit.

And which truth? The image Renarin generated is clearly counterfactual. Calling that a truth is stretching that concept.

 

The Lies:

1) “They’re going to die, you know,” Moash said softly. “Shut up.” “Everyone you love, everyone you think you can protect. They’re all going to die anyway. There’s nothing you can do about it.”

2) “Do you remember the chasm, Kal?” Moash whispered. “In the rain that night? Standing there, looking down into the darkness, and knowing it was your sole release? You knew it then. You try to pretend you’ve forgotten. But you know. As sure as the storms will come. As sure as every lighteyes will lie. There is only one answer. One path. One result.”

3) “There’s a simple path to freedom,” Moash said [...] “The answer is to stop existing, Kal. You’ve always known it, haven’t you?”

4) “There is no fight to be won. We lost the moment we were born into this cursed life of suffering. The sole victory left to us is to choose to end it.”

These are lies.  Kaladin can protect people.  He can do something about the danger they are in.  Kaladin did not "forget" that suicide was his only option.  He learned better.  He knew that there were better options.  It's a lie to say that the only path to freedom or release from pain is death.  There are many paths to freedom.  It's a lie to say there is no fight to be won against the forces of evil.  This is a Desolation, it's been fought and won for the side of good many times before.

The theme of Moash's entire speech is that life is terrible.  That it's a curse to be born.  That nothing good can ever come from life because others will always keep you down and destroy anything good that you have.  That you can't even be good yourself, because others will do things to you that make you turn bad.  Moash believes that he had no possible way of being a good person.  No possible way of overcoming the suffering he's faced in his life.  He is trying to convince Kaladin to believe the same thing.

 

The Truth:

Renarin's truth is to show both Kaladin and Moash that Moash is wrong.  He shows that there was a way for Moash to be a good person.  There was a way for him to overcome his suffering.  It was not a curse to be born.  Good can come from life.  We know that Moash has freely chosen the wrong path multiple times which made life worse for himself, we've seen it on the page.  Moash himself knew that, before giving away his feelings to Odium - he reflects on it in early/mid OB and even late in WoR.  And the reason he feels pain from Renarin's vision is because the vision strips away the lies Moash has told himself, it forces Moash to confront the fact that much of his suffering is his own fault and that he still has the ability to change his ways and put in the work to become better.  Kaladin himself has made a lot of progress in fighting his own tendency toward negative thinking.  When he's doing well, he understands that all the things Moash told him were BS.  But when he's struggling, those kinds of thoughts try to pull him back into the dark.

 

Renarin's image was not "counterfactual" - it wasn't just some guy saying "Hey Moash, here's what you would have looked like if you'd become a Windrunner."  It was a magical vision of what might have been and what might still be.  Renarin used magic to prove Moash wrong and show that his entire premise for everything he says (that he had no way of being any different than he is) was false. 

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I see a lot of people talking as if the Moash that Renarin revealed could be a Malatium type of vision, but what if it's a premonition of Moash's redemption instead? Renarin's abilities have been much more tied to futuresight than anything like malatium so far...

Exited to see more of his powers now that he's had a year to learn them!

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Kaladin remembers that he had talked to Mash (and Rock and Teft) about Tien And about his fears and “failures”. I really wanted to see that conversation Happen “on-screen”.
Is anyone else imagining a Bridge Four “Discuss all the ways you are broken meeting / honor-spren try outs”? Come as you are. Excellent stew.


Also, Renarin for president. KillS thunderclasts and chases away Emotionally  abusive cretins With Truth.

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, agrabes said:

Renarin's image was not "counterfactual" - it wasn't just some guy saying "Hey Moash, here's what you would have looked like if you'd become a Windrunner."  It was a magical vision of what might have been and what might still be.  Renarin used magic to prove Moash wrong and show that his entire premise for everything he says (that he had no way of being any different than he is) was false. 

Very, very well put (have an upvote for sure).

And let's all realize that Dalinar at his worst was far worse of an unfeeling, stone-cold killer than Moash is now. Young Dalinar enjoyed it, needed it, felt frustrated if he wasn't able to fight, to hurt, to kill, to dominate for its own sake.

And if what we (I and others who have posted) suspect is the underlying mechanism of what Renarin's vision is the case, it's not like Allomantically burning gold or malatium. Renarin's magic is likely similar to Regrowth healing, which is based on a template from the person him/herself. The filmy part of Moash that broke off and stepped into, instead of shying away from, that light, a Windrunner with a Shardspear, proud and protecting? That's a part of Moash's self-image that is still in there in him, of him.

A Moash that was always in there. The part of him that was one of the first to agree with Kaladin to go back and save Dalinar's abandoned forces at the Shattered Plains, because it was right.

A part that had a chance to reach forward and take Kaladin's hand in that hallway in the palace over an unconscious Elhokar, but was pushed aside as he chose to close the visor and punched Kaladin with Shardplate, and then summoned a Shardblade to finish the job.

A part that was still in there afterwards, regretting and replaying that event, until he gave away that pain... That noticed and was bothered by the look of betrayal in Kaladin's eyes as he killed Elhokar in front of him... And a part that, like Amaram expressed while fighting Kaladin, can still flinch and feel that pain of regret, despite Odium.

A part that, as we saw in a more mature Dalinar, and as that Dalinar said to Amaram, could still be pruned, embraced, refined, and accepted in order to grow past.

Quote

Dalinar took his hand from the glowing pillar and held it out. "You can change. You can become a better person. I did. Journey before destination."

"No," Amaram said. "No, he'll never forgive me."

"The bridgeman?"

"Not him." Amaram tapped his chest. "Him. I'm sorry, Dalinar."

Is Moash "too far gone" to ever be a Bridge Four Windrunner? To confront and to forgive himself, but not to excuse himself, from his regretted past actions? Who knows? We shall see.

But is it important to the current narrative that he MAY not be too far gone? Definitely.

Edited by robardin
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And I so want to see what Venli's up to now in the past year. Has she been coordinating with Dalinar at all? Is she a Radiant on Team Dalinar, or an independent operative? What happens when if or when she meets Rlain face-to-face?

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