RoW Chapter 8 Discussion

[+honorblades]

5 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

so we can't be 100% confident that she's right, but she did suggest that it was responsible for the destruction of Aimia, which doesn't sound like Mindlessness to me. 

Agree. Both Nergaoul and Ashertmarn are destructive but not in a particularly focused way, it would be very interesting to see an Unmade that can directly destroy. 

[DracostarA]

I'm pretty sure the more hyphens an Unmade has, the more intelligence it has. Hence why Ba-Ado-Mishram is the 'highprincess' while Ashertmarn et al are all very basic.

[Cheat Commando]

Man, Renarin stepping in to save the day was beautiful. I can't wait to describe that scene to my wife, but I have to finish explaining Oathbringer first.

I am almost bummed that bronze does what bronze does. I'm happy to have another piece to the puzzle, but it messes up my Grand Unified Theory of Metals that I've been working on in my notebook for the past week.

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, Gilphon said:

So according to Hessi, Nergaoul, Moelach and Ashertmarn are the only mindless Unmade. Hessi did make it clear that she knew next to nothing about Dai-Gonarthis, so we can't be 100% confident that she's right, but she did suggest that it was responsible for the destruction of Aimia, which doesn't sound like Mindlessness to me. 

Re-shephir seemed pretty dumb. Shallan compared her to axehound in Oathbringer. 

[GudThymes]

On the topic of whatever it is that Renarin did. I saw a lot of comparisons to allomancy and malatium as well as Shallan's lightweaving and interpretation of self.

What stood out to me though when reading was the Lightweaving that wit did with Shallan in OB in Kholinar. He shows her two versions of Shallan that could exist. The "child" Shallan with all her pain and is incapable of moving through the world and that same Shallan that has also "forgiven" herself and is standing tall and just.

 

What Renarin did with his light felt more like that than anything else to me. He presented an alternative version of Moash that hadn't given up his pain and instead accepted it and became Radiant. 

[+Harrycrapper]

1 hour ago, DracostarA said:

I'm pretty sure the more hyphens an Unmade has, the more intelligence it has. Hence why Ba-Ado-Mishram is the 'highprincess' while Ashertmarn et al are all very basic.

So progressive of the Unmade to hyphenate like that, shows real dedication to the relationship. 

[FollowYourMuse]

8 hours ago, Shardsplinter said:

Renarin's Illumination is really weird( maybe a stronger form of Shallan's ability to draw the best possible versions of others?) Would really like to read what everyones's thinking he actually did in that scene and why?

Actually, I do not recall the exact words, but when he healed Adolin the one time, there was a reference to something similar. I think it is the combination of lightweaving and re-growth. 

[+Czernobog]

Thinking back to Navani's rather disparaging thoughts regarding Renarin's use of illumination and it's "odd" behavior...did he show her a possible version of herself that she didn't much care for?

[GriffinMaze]

Could Adolin be a/working with the Ghostbloods?

 

SOMETHING had to have been going on with him while his dad was away or drinking himself into a stupor during Adolin's youth. Who would we least suspect among Shallan's group to be a ghostblood agent?

It would make tons of sense for them to have approached him as a youth when he was vulnerable

Edited August 25, 2020 by GriffinMaze

[Innovation]

30 minutes ago, GriffinMaze said:

Could Adolin be a/working with the Ghostbloods?

 

SOMETHING had to have been going on with him while his dad was away or drinking himself into a stupor during Adolin's youth. Who would we least suspect among Shallan's group to be a ghostblood agent?

It would make tons of sense for them to have approached him as a youth when he was vulnerable

He probably just practiced dueling and learned tactics. 

[GriffinMaze]

Just now, Innovation said:

He probably just practiced dueling and learned tactics. 

seems pretty boring for one of our main characters 

[Grahamfactor]

A few comments.

1.  I wonder if Renarin had some kind of vision about what was happening to Kaladin that caused him to run into a burning building to rescue him.

2.  I also wonder if Renarin will be able to restore Roshone; he hasn't been dead for very long and he was killed with a normal knife...

3.  I'm not too proud to say that Brandon tricked me into thinking that Kaladin had said new WORDS when he said he just wanted to save his friends and a big light appeared.  Brandon trolling us with his own patterns.

4.  I tend to agree that Odium's or an unmade's influence was affecting Kaladin. 

5.  It is interesting that Renarin disrupts Odium's influence on Moash in a similar way that Odium or the unmade (and the fabrial) disrupted Syl's connection to Kaladin.

 

 

[Innovation]

11 minutes ago, GriffinMaze said:

seems pretty boring for one of our main characters 

Well all we have seen in these books is war, from the war of reckoning to the true desolation. I imagine life was far less action-packed than it is now. 

[+Bzhydack]

2 minutes ago, Grahamfactor said:

5.  It is interesting that Renarin disrupts Odium's influence on Moash in a similar way that Odium or the unmade (and the fabrial) disrupted Syl's connection to Kaladin.

Yep, this scene is in fact very similar to scene when Dalinar stood against Odium in Thaylen. Especially, Radiants Spren behavior - both Syl and Stormfather are "pushed away" from their Radiants. But I dont think Odium is there himself, I vote for Unmade - and i would be very, very happy if this is Dai-Gonarthis. If we learn more about its powers, we can understand better what happend in Aimia.

[Kered]

I don't know why but the Moash and Kaladin scenes in the OB chapter and this one have been the most emotionally powerful for me, in pretty much any cosmere book. So much overlapped impacts. Moash basically trying to get Kal to commit suicide is the darkest thing I can think of. Mostly because Brandon made it executed it as a gift not an attack, which is arguably darker. I was worried how Brandon was going to pull off the explanation of Moash spiraling so fast and not make the relationship with Kal going forward seem superficial theme wise. But after OB and this I think Moash and Kal are going to create some of the most emotionally powerful, resonate scenes in the series. 

 

The level of hopeless despair the OB scene and this scene invoke is literally insane. 

[jamskinner]

8 hours ago, _edgedancer said:

Loved this chapter more than I thought I would actually, oh boy.
 

I definitely think there was some direct Odium influence when Moash is talking to Kaladin. The part that sticks out to me is how Kaladin is seemingly unable to hear Syl, it strikes me as similar to this part in OB: 

Could be an Unmade’s influence as well, as others have said. 

and then, of course, Renarin’s glorious entrance, what a perfect foil for Moash in that scene. I wonder if this is the particular moment that causes Dalinar to transfer Kaladin off of active duty?

 

I’m also thinking Renarin’s “perfect self” ability (sounds a heck of a lot like allomantic Malatium actually) will be able to help Kaladin progress in his Oaths, or perhaps help out with his depression so that he can progress through the Oaths on his own? 

Maybe help shallan too. 

 

3 hours ago, GriffinMaze said:

seems pretty boring for one of our main characters 

That’s why he’s not one of the main characters. Just telling the truth here. 

[+Harrycrapper]

1 hour ago, Innovation said:

He probably just practiced dueling and learned tactics. 

He clearly never spent any time learning how to keep women.

[Karger]

8 hours ago, agrabes said:

It would fit with the order too.  Lightweavers use Illumination to create illusions and distractions.  Truthwatchers use Illumination to show the truth.

It is the difference between objective and subjective reality.  In point of fact what R is doing seems more in line with a normal Lightweaver then a normal Truthwatcher.  He is showing a potential future or maybe a "what could have been."  I wonder if this is what shardic combat in the spiritual realm looks like.  Basically a complex argument that involves both shards using willpower to attempt to create axioms that bind other shards in ways that their opponents can't bring themselves to acknowledge.  Maybe Odium's bonds are basically an argument by Tanavast that "we are one" somthing Odium can't by his vary nature acknowledge.

5 hours ago, Gilphon said:

So according to Hessi, Nergaoul, Moelach and Ashertmarn are the only mindless Unmade. Hessi did make it clear that she knew next to nothing about Dai-Gonarthis, so we can't be 100% confident that she's right, but she did suggest that it was responsible for the destruction of Aimia, which doesn't sound like Mindlessness to me. 

The thrill could easily destroy a nation or even cause an ecological collapse if the system supporting the war effort were delicate(as islands often are).

Edited August 26, 2020 by Karger

[Shardsplinter]

7 hours ago, Gilphon said:

I have suspected for awhile that the surge of Progression operates on a totally different principle from Stormlight healing. That progression is about accelerating natural growth and regeneration, whereas Stormlight restores a person to how they think they're supposed to be. Which would explain why time since the injury is a factor in progression, but it isn't with Stormlight.

This makes sense and I actually agree with you, but I'm not convinced. I remember that on Rysn's interlude from OB she said she had seen a radiant( probably Renarin) and that he couldn't heal her legs because they had become part of her identity. So, either there is a similarity between using Progression and Stormlight to heal and the way you view urself spiritually or maybe not even our charachters know the difference between Progression and Stormlight healing ( in-world missinterpretation of investiture mechanichs has happen before) You could Also say that when she refers to the legs being part of her identity it's only becas of how long it has been since the injury but I believe that would still be influenced by the person's spiritual self. So, the main question is do we have an example of the surge of Progression being used to heal a long term injury???

[Karger]

2 hours ago, GriffinMaze said:

SOMETHING had to have been going on with him while his dad was away or drinking himself into a stupor during Adolin's youth. Who would we least suspect among Shallan's group to be a ghostblood agent?

It would make tons of sense for them to have approached him as a youth when he was vulnerable

I don't think so.  What you see is what you get with Adolin.

[Grahamfactor]

Anyone have a theory on why Kaladin didn't see a "perfected" version of himself?  Maybe Kaladin saw a perfected version of Moash and Moash saw a perfected version of Kaladin (which is why he was slashing at the air)?  Maybe Renarin's light is more directed at Moash?  I doubt that Kaladin's self-image is true enough to be immune from whatever platonic perfection-showing effects that Renarin's light has.

 

 

[Karger]

8 minutes ago, Grahamfactor said:

Anyone have a theory on why Kaladin didn't see a "perfected" version of himself?  Maybe Kaladin saw a perfected version of Moash and Moash saw a perfected version of Kaladin (which is why he was slashing at the air)?  Maybe Renarin's light is more directed at Moash?  I doubt that Kaladin's self-image is true enough to be immune from whatever platonic perfection-showing effects that Renarin's light has.

Firstly I do believe it is targeted.  Secondly I believe the principle R is calling up is that everyone can/could be good.  Kaladin already is but that is just my OP.

[Gilphon]

1 hour ago, Shardsplinter said:

This makes sense and I actually agree with you, but I'm not convinced. I remember that on Rysn's interlude from OB she said she had seen a radiant( probably Renarin) and that he couldn't heal her legs because they had become part of her identity. So, either there is a similarity between using Progression and Stormlight to heal and the way you view urself spiritually or maybe not even our charachters know the difference between Progression and Stormlight healing ( in-world missinterpretation of investiture mechanichs has happen before) You could Also say that when she refers to the legs being part of her identity it's only becas of how long it has been since the injury but I believe that would still be influenced by the person's spiritual self. So, the main question is do we have an example of the surge of Progression being used to heal a long term injury???

No, no, it was said that the Radiant had been unable to heal her because it had been too long since the injury, not because it had become a part of her identity. They never would've said the identity thing, because they don't understand that mechanism in-universe. Which strongly implies that Progression cannot heal long term injuries.

And later on, we see that when panicked, Rysn instinctively tries to stand up, demonstrating that she has not internalized her injury; her instincts are still behaving as if she could walk. Which is really the smoking gun for me that Progression is not identity-based.

Also- there was that moment where Lift used Progression to make seeds grow into vines instantly. Stormlight healing can't do that. 

[Soby]

1. I thought anyone can regrow anything if they become a squire or knight. It’s just that the Truthwatchers and Edgedancers can’t heal others if the wound has been there too long. Like Renarin couldn’t give Gaz his eye back, but Gaz gets his eye when he takes in his own Stormlight. 
 

2. I can’t help but tie Renarin’s part in this chapter to the vision that Taravangian had with Odium at the end of OB. Renarin is the dark horse...And I love how similar he seems in some ways to Tien. 

Edited August 26, 2020 by Soby

[Song]

10 hours ago, agrabes said:

My thoughts on Renarin - I think this may be more of a normal Truthwatcher kind of thing.  We know that different orders have different "flavors" of abilities.  Like the difference between Bondsmith and Stoneward tension.  I think this may be the Truthwatcher's version of Illumination.  It would fit with the order too.  Lightweavers use Illumination to create illusions and distractions.  Truthwatchers use Illumination to show the truth.

In this scene, Moash is creating a lie and trying to convince Kaladin of something that isn't true with all his nihilistic BS.  Renarin, as a Truthwatcher, is able to dispel the illusion, show Kaladin that it isn't the truth.  He uses Illumination to show Moash the truth - that he could have been a good man and a hero if he had made better choices.  That it was not inevitable that everyone ends up in endless pain and Moash could have chosen a different path.  It hurts Moash, because he knows it's true that most of his pain and struggles are self inflicted and that's why we see him ask Odium to take the pain.

I think this is correct.

It was so wonderful to see Renarin do this, and I kind of dig that it was subconsciously done. Just convinces me even more that he's incapable of being corrupted, and is going to have a fabulous arc...when we are given enough pages to see it.

I really, really hope we have either Kalladin or Shallan swearing another oath in this book. It's...dispiriting to see a year go by and them not really make that much progress. 

I want this book yesterday!!