RoW Chapter 8 Discussion

[Nahema]

10 minutes ago, Michael Portz said:

I really think that was Renarin's doing, but I do not think that was an illusion at all. Several ppl above already mentioned spiritual aspects of this display of power related to Allomancy.

 

12 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Yes but then odium would have created a illusion where the radiant version of moash would have been dead in some horrific manner or something like that. Not him being a hero. 

Also why would Moash run away from Odium ? 

And why does that light seem warm and encouraging and stuff to kal instead of seeming to simply be demanding his pain and bringing numbness to him.

I re-read the passage - you are right, it doesn`t sound like Odium at all. And Truthwatchers do have Illumination. Still I'm puzzled that Renarin would use that in this way on purpose (or it it was a first time, he doesn`t seem to be aware of doing anything). I need the whole book really badly!

[Michael Portz]

5 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I am so confused how Gaz was able to grow back an eye.  I thought Lopen was the weird exception to the rule that longterm injuries/disabilities don't tend to heal, and he only did it through shere unwillingness to accept his arm was lost.  Gaz's lost eye and the paranoia and fear it caused him was a pretty central part of his character in the brief POV we had of him.

*scratchhead* I 'ld say that both sides are hard to compare. On Gaz's part there was imho a whole lot of longing to have his eye back - he saw himself as not whole . Sunny character prodigy Lopen on the other side never seems to have given too much (negative) thought about his lost arm - there was always a Lopen version for him which "worked".

Edited August 25, 2020 by Michael Portz
Do Not Submit Hastily ... (aka: typos)

[+Harrycrapper]

37 minutes ago, Karger said:

I thought it was a bit like seeing your own future.  Electrum but for another person.  External electrum?

 

36 minutes ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

That's malatium.

Actually, no seeing someones future is more like Atium than either of those. 

Gold - see a past version of yourself that could have been

Electrum - see a future version of yourself(I've never been clear on how far you can reach into the future, what we've seen seems like it goes about as far as Atium)

Atium - see future versions of people/moving objects around you

Malatium - see a past version of other people that could have been

 

I'd say that what Renarin did was closest to Malatium, though like others have said it could be a potential future as well.

[+Child of Hodor]

21 minutes ago, Michael Portz said:

I really think that was Renarin's doing, but I do not think that was an illusion at all. Several ppl above already mentioned spiritual aspects of this display of power related to Allomancy.

It seems similar to how Shallan could draw a person how they could be and it would inspire them. Like she did with the deserters and the guards of the slave wagon in early WoR chapters. I believe she did one of Elhokar in OB as well. 

Except Renarin is farther along now then Shallan was early on in WoR so he can do create a full illusion showing how Moash could be if he chose. 

It's frustrating since we know Renarin's spren has been altered, we don't know if this is exactly what other Truthwatchers can do or not. 

There does seem to be a spiritual realm element to it with the blinding light similar to what Dalinar sees in his weird dreams. 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Child of Hodor

[Michael Portz]

3 minutes ago, Nahema said:

I re-read the passage - you are right, it doesn`t sound like Odium at all. And Truthwatchers do have Illumination. Still I'm puzzled that Renarin would use that in this way on purpose (or it it was a first time, he doesn`t seem to be aware of doing anything). I need the whole book really badly!

Yes, I am puzzled, too :-) 

My guess would be, that it was not intentional.

[+robardin]

3 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I am so confused how Gaz was able to grow back an eye.  I thought Lopen was the weird exception to the rule that longterm injuries/disabilities don't tend to heal, and he only did it through shere unwillingness to accept his arm was lost.  Gaz's lost eye and the paranoia and fear it caused him was a pretty central part of his character in the brief POV we had of him.

Yes, and in one of the few POVs we have from Gaz (in The Way of Kings, when he was the bridge seargeant): "Gaz had never gotten used to having just one eye. Could a man get used to that?"

It's not the effect it had on his life, but the cognitive acceptance of it as part of his identity, that would determine how the Stormlight healing worked (as with Lopen's missing arm).

[xinoehp512]

2 minutes ago, Michael Portz said:

Yes, I am puzzled, too :-) 

My guess would be, that it was not intentional.

Renarin's done it before, sort of. IIRC, there was a scene somewhere with Adolin where he healed him- and in the process, showed him a 'perfected' version of himsef.

[Subvisual Haze]

Moash you're really not giving this Odium "surrender your pain" sales pitch very well.  Your target audience is a guy with soul crushing depression and life full of tragedies.  An evil god who can numb away your bad emotions and make you never feel mental anguish or depressed again would be a much more tempting offer than "lol nothing matters, just kill yourself"

[Michael Portz]

2 minutes ago, xinoehp512 said:

Renarin's done it before, sort of. IIRC, there was a scene somewhere with Adolin where he healed him- and in the process, showed him a 'perfected' version of himsef.

Yepp, you are right .. but doesn't that mean, that Renarin here tried to heal MOASH?

Which could totally be true, given Renarins kind nature, perhaps lead by the detection of necessity? Some kind of "HEAL!" application of his power instead of "HEAL MY FRIEND!".

Edited August 25, 2020 by Michael Portz
Too hasty submit (again, incomplete idea)

[Scriptorian]

So Renarin's "allomancy": 

It's probably most accurate to say that he's accessing the same underlying spiritual/temporal mechanics of the Allomantic Temporal Metals, without necessarily replicating the particular effects of any of them. In essence, he's drawing on an alternate-spiritual version of Moash, and then projecting via Illumination so it's visible to more than just him. We can't say whether this projection is a past, future, or simply alternate version of Moash, but given Renarin's capacity to see future possibles, intuitively you'd expect the projection to be based on the future. This is probably why some people (including myself) immediately compared it to Electrum (seeing possible futures), even though the effect is most similar to Malatium.

In any case, here's my theory on how Renarin's psuedo-Illumination works. We know that normally Lightweaving requires a Spiritual connection (Connection?) between the surgebinder and the thing they are creating an illusion of. My guess is that Reanarin's power works like the Malatium to a normal Lightweaver/Truthwatcher's gold: rather than projecting images that he himself is connected to, he can project things that others are connected to. Like alternate past/future selves.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Scriptorian

[Shardsplinter]

So, guys, I'm really not seeing the pattern as to when can you heal a long-term injury with Stormlight. I know it depends on how you view yourself spiritually but so far we have:

Lopen: a charachter confident of himself and that considers his lack of an arm a defining part of himself ( or at least his many jokes and coments make it seem like such) is able to grow hack the arm through streanght of will?. I just can't see him as not having accepted yet this part of him. Maybe his confidence from the first time he saw Kal absorb Stormlight on the fact that he once would too helped him change the way he saw himself.

Gaz: a charachter who could never accept that a missing eye was part of his identity was able to grow it back.

But then:

Rysn: a charachter that has always seen herself as intrepide, some kind of adventurer or explorer, with the dream of travelling the world as he master merchant sees a disabilitie that would make all of that at the very least unlikely as part of her identity? ( maybe she thinks subconsciously that she deserves it because of the decitions she took on the Reshi island)

What do u think? Is this all making more sense to everybody else?

PS Healing urself and being healed by another radiant with the surge of progression might also be slightly different (I don't think so but unless there's an in book or WoB specifically saying so it's still a fact to take into account)

 

[Karger]

2 minutes ago, Shardsplinter said:

So, guys, I'm really not seeing the pattern as to when can you heal a long-term injury with Stormlight. I know it depends on how you view yourself spiritually but so far we have:

People are different.  There are also a few WoBs on this.

[Michael Portz]

1 minute ago, Shardsplinter said:

But then:

Rysn: a charachter that has always seen herself as intrepide, some kind of adventurer or explorer, with the dream of travelling the world as he master merchant sees a disabilitie that would make all of that at the very least unlikely as part of her identity? ( maybe she thinks subconsciously that she deserves it because of the decitions she took on the Reshi island)

The not-deserving assumption as a stormlight healing block sure fits Kaladin's slave brands.

[Singer]

34 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I am so confused how Gaz was able to grow back an eye.  I thought Lopen was the weird exception to the rule that longterm injuries/disabilities don't tend to heal, and he only did it through shere unwillingness to accept his arm was lost.  Gaz's lost eye and the paranoia and fear it caused him was a pretty central part of his character in the brief POV we had of him.

I think that paranoia and discomfort was him not being able to accept having lost an eye. He never got used to it, never adapted, so he never really identified himself that way.

[Truthless of Shinovar]

Holy crap Renarin. That was awesome.

[HipsterStick]

37 minutes ago, Shardsplinter said:

 

Lopen: a charachter confident of himself and that considers his lack of an arm a defining part of himself ( or at least his many jokes and coments make it seem like such) is able to grow hack the arm through streanght of will?. I just can't see him as not having accepted yet this part of him. Maybe his confidence from the first time he saw Kal absorb Stormlight on the fact that he once would too helped him change the way he saw himself.

Gaz: a charachter who could never accept that a missing eye was part of his identity was able to grow it back.

 

One could read Lopen’s behavior as trying to distract from the fact that he lost an arm. Sort of how individuals use humor to distract themselves from pain. Lopen’s humor might be something similar- and attempt to ‘laugh off’ the difficulty that came with losing a limb.  

As for Gaz, I would agree that the paranoia he exhibits is some kind of indicator that he never really accepted the loss of his eye. A kind of compensating behavior, maybe- a psychological response to losing his physical sight. Maybe that drove him to suspect others more, become more paranoid? 

As for the rest of this chapter... I’m sure there’s a LOT of potentially mind-boggling stuff in here, but currently my burning hatred of Moash is obscuring any rational thought. How DARE he? In my mind, he’s sunk lower than Amaram and possibly even Sadeas. What they did was cruel, but they were doing it ‘For the greater good’, and neither of them truly ended up hitting Kaladin where it hurt the most. Moash though? Exploiting Kaladin’s struggle with depression in an attempt to destroy him? Doing so to make himself feel better about his life? Using Kaladin’s pain to justify his own terrible choices? Despicable.

Words can not contain the utter contempt this chapter engendered in me for Moash. Bravo Sanderson- you’ve created a villain I hate more than Umbridge. 

Also, Renarin’s save was PHENOMENAL. I hope we get some Renarin-Kaladin friendship going on in this book, a la Way of Kings Prime.

Edited August 25, 2020 by HipsterStick

[mosaab]

there is a theory circulating in reddit that Dai-Gonarthis the unmade was involved in Moash's sales pitch

[xinoehp512]

50 minutes ago, Shardsplinter said:

So, guys, I'm really not seeing the pattern as to when can you heal a long-term injury with Stormlight. I know it depends on how you view yourself spiritually but so far we have:

Lopen: a charachter confident of himself and that considers his lack of an arm a defining part of himself ( or at least his many jokes and coments make it seem like such) is able to grow hack the arm through streanght of will?. I just can't see him as not having accepted yet this part of him. Maybe his confidence from the first time he saw Kal absorb Stormlight on the fact that he once would too helped him change the way he saw himself.

Gaz: a charachter who could never accept that a missing eye was part of his identity was able to grow it back.

But then:

Rysn: a charachter that has always seen herself as intrepide, some kind of adventurer or explorer, with the dream of travelling the world as he master merchant sees a disabilitie that would make all of that at the very least unlikely as part of her identity? ( maybe she thinks subconsciously that she deserves it because of the decitions she took on the Reshi island)

What do u think? Is this all making more sense to everybody else?

PS Healing urself and being healed by another radiant with the surge of progression might also be slightly different (I don't think so but unless there's an in book or WoB specifically saying so it's still a fact to take into account)

 

Lopen once makes a mention of his nonexistent arm making a rude gesture at someone, which I think is a clue from Brandon that it can be healed.

1 hour ago, Michael Portz said:

*scratchhead* I 'ld say that both sides are hard to compare. On Gaz's part there was imho a whole lot of longing to have his eye back - he saw himself as not whole . Sunny character prodigy Lopen on the other side never seems to have given too much (negative) thought about his lost arm - there was always a Lopen version for him which "worked".

Ooh, I like the idea that Gaz was able to heal it because he thought of himself as not whole- almost like he expected that Stormlight would be able to heal it. In contrast to both Kaladin and Rysn, who we see be not surprised that a healing would fail.

[What's a Seawolf?]

"Kaladin knelt, bathed in that warm light. Yes, warmth. Kaladin felt warm. Surely… if there truly was a deity… it watched him from within that light."

This reminds me exactly of the warm light vision that Dalinar receives at the end of WoR.  At the time, Dalinar had a budding connection to Honor, but also a connection to Odium.  (Being groomed for his champion and all.)

Now we have Renarin producing a similar occurrence, and we know he has a spren that is part Honor/part Odium.

The way this warm light is described, and the mention of 'if there truly was a deity,' makes me believe that this warm light is a side effect or combination of Honor and Odium, and a sign that the two will eventually be combined into one.  (The same could be applied to Cultivation and Odium.)

I'm more convinced than ever that at least two Rosharian Shards will be combined, and I still think 'Justice' will be the new Shard. 

[agrabes]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

I don't think Moash was suggesting that Kaladin kill himself, or to let Moash kill him (he had put away his knife and had not summoned his Blade). No, he was pushing Kaladin to surrender to the void of Odium the way that he had done - notice that he wasn't able to hear Syl any more as he started falling into that emotional numbness.

I don't even think Moash was using any kind of magic, Surge or otherwise, on Kaladin there. Just forcing Kaladin to replay events and thoughts in his head through intimately knowing his life, deeds, and thoughts, just as Odium had done with Dalinar at Thaylen Fields. The simple act of "accepting the void", that "it wasn't my fault" and "giving the pain" away (to a waiting Odium), would be enough for Kaladin to fall (...to become Odium's Champion??? Is that Vyre's "work?")

Moash was definitely trying to convince Kaladin to kill himself.  First, he references the time in WoK when Kaladin nearly did decide to kill himself.  He says that Kaladin had the right idea at that time.  He then says that the only way for Kaladin to stop hurting is for him to stop existing.  He then tries to force Kaladin to say out loud that he agrees with Moash that the only way is to go back to the cliff and jump.  

Moash says that he found a better way for himself - surrendering to Odium.  But he says the only way for Kaladin is suicide.

Having been close to someone that was suicidal as I'm sure many of us have, this is exactly the way they think.  It's dangerous to even talk like this, to reinforce those kinds of thoughts in their heads.  These ideas are wrong.  But they can't see it, they can't think about anything else or put their life in perspective because they are in a bad place.  So if anyone struggling is reading this, my message to you is remember who is saying these things in the book - an evil villain.  A person who lies, who doesn't have your best interest in mind.  Who has lost the ability to see the good, not by damage but by choice.  Remember that things aren't as bad as they seem, that it's not all bad and that even if things are bad now, things can and will be good again.  Break the cycle of bad thoughts in your mind.  Remember the good times, remember that you have choice in your life to remove the bad.  And seek help from a loved one and/or a professional.

[+robardin]

5 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Moash was definitely trying to convince Kaladin to kill himself.  First, he references the time in WoK when Kaladin nearly did decide to kill himself.  He says that Kaladin had the right idea at that time.  He then says that the only way for Kaladin to stop hurting is for him to stop existing.  He then tries to force Kaladin to say out loud that he agrees with Moash that the only way is to go back to the cliff and jump.  

Moash says that he found a better way for himself - surrendering to Odium.  But he says the only way for Kaladin is suicide.

Having been close to someone that was suicidal as I'm sure many of us have, this is exactly the way they think.  It's dangerous to even talk like this, to reinforce those kinds of thoughts in their heads.  These ideas are wrong.  But they can't see it, they can't think about anything else or put their life in perspective because they are in a bad place.  So if anyone struggling is reading this, my message to you is remember who is saying these things in the book - an evil villain.  A person who lies, who doesn't have your best interest in mind.  Who has lost the ability to see the good, not by damage but by choice.  Remember that things aren't as bad as they seem, that it's not all bad and that even if things are bad now, things can and will be good again.  Break the cycle of bad thoughts in your mind.  Remember the good times, remember that you have choice in your life to remove the bad.  And seek help from a loved one and/or a professional.

Wow, you moved me, man.

Plus, I think you're right. Moash says, "The sole victory left to us is to choose to end it. I found my way. There is one open to you." His (Moash's) way to end his suffering (of feelings of guilt) was to surrender to Odium; but he doesn't say or imply that that is the way he is suggesting for Kaladin (to end his feelings of failure). No, I think you're right on second reading, he's urging Kaladin to finish what he almost started back at the honor chasm.

What a cremstain. 

 

[Hyarmenatan]

Call me stupid, but do they have all sorts of alkohol on Roshar? Until now, I treated it literally, they called it wine so I imagined wine, with odd colours to it, but still wine. But do they have everything, with the 'weird shinovar wine' being the only type we on Earth would call wine?

Is this 'weak, orange wine' that Dalinar allowed to be drunk during feasts actually A BEER? I literally never seen a topic to discuss Rosharian types of alkohol, but this chapter opened my eyes and broke my head canon that was rock solid since like 5 years. 

[+robardin]

10 hours ago, Truthless of Shinovar said:

Holy crap Renarin. That was awesome.

It surely was. Now the question is .... Did he do it on purpose, or even know what it is he did, with the Moash-as-Windrunner shadow and all? (And why didn't he stop Moash pushing past?)

 

9 hours ago, Hyarmenatan said:

Call me stupid, but do they have all sorts of alkohol on Roshar? Until now, I treated it literally, they called it wine so I imagined wine, with odd colours to it, but still wine. But do they have everything, with the 'weird shinovar wine' being the only type we on Earth would call wine?

Is this 'weak, orange wine' that Dalinar allowed to be drunk during feasts actually A BEER? I literally never seen a topic to discuss Rosharian types of alkohol, but this chapter opened my eyes and broke my head canon that was rock solid since like 5 years. 

In a word: yes.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Roshar#Wines

They don't  ferment grapes for wine except in Shinvar, because grapes don't grow on Roshar except in Shinovar. Instead, they are fermenting and distilling lavis and other rockbud based "grains" to alcohols of different strengths.

[+Czernobog]

38 minutes ago, mosaab said:

there is a theory circulating in reddit that Dai-Gonarthis the unmade was involved in Moash's sales pitch

The Black Fisher as a name is very similar to depression often being described as the black dog. I like this notion. 

[Mist]

Renarin!! Aaaah! Thank you!