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RoW Chapter 8 Discussion


Jofwu

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Loved this chapter.  I think it reveals a little of Odium's strategies and why certain things were feared by the Radiants.  I was always a defender of Moash, but trying to convince a friend to commit suicide is a bridge too far even for me.

But seeing what Moash did - I imagine this was a common strategy for Odium's forces.  I'm surprised we didn't think of this earlier, though I guess someone could probably pull out a half dozen threads where someone did over the years.  All the Radiants are broken in one way or another.  So of course Odium, being a Shard based on emotion, is going to know exactly how to try to exploit that.  A few whispers in the ear of a Radiant might leave them emotionally devastated and not capable of fighting at their best.  I think we'll see stuff like this happening more often.  It's already happened with Dalinar and Kaladin.  Third time confirms it's an active strategy.

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So I wonder if Gaz is Shallans radiant squire or if he has bonded some Spren. 

He does seem to be the kind of person who needs to say a lot of truths to himself. Wonder if he will become bond a cryptic or has already bonded one. 

Or perhaps he's bonded some other Spren. 

 

Also I'm surprised he still thought of his spiritual self as having both eyes and could regrow it. He was one eyed for a few yrs atleast. 

Hmm makes me more optimistic that rysn will get her legs back too. 

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20 minutes ago, The Ryshadium said:

Why does everyone keep saying Renarin’s illumination works like electrum? Electrum shows you your own future. It’s the “poor man’s atium”. Renarin’s ability works more like malatium. Anyway, what a crazy chapter! The Moash hate was boiling inside me the whole time. Don’t you dare hurt Kaladin like that!

I thought it was a bit like seeing your own future.  Electrum but for another person.  External electrum?

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This chapter felt like it ended too soon!!!!

I can't wait to know what secrets does Ialai's book has! Also I kind of felt like the Shin wine ( since they are was the ones that better preserved the more "human" traditions and culture after they worldhop from Ashyn) was a hint at other  nonRoshar cultures or worldhoppers influencing the major players on Roshar. Maybe the secret the GB don't want Shallan to find out will make her more Cosmere aware. After all I feel like it might be time for our main charachters to deal with more Cosmere aware situations This would also match with Brandon's chapter 7 annotations saying that in this book we might be dealing with more Cosmere aware antagonist( which is also why I don't think Ialai will directly provide this information but rather lead Shallan in the right way to obtein it) This might also make since if we realize that this series has has more important secondary worldhopping charachters than any other before. I mean, at some point our protagonists have to start asking themselfs the big questions.

Also, Moash: trying to get Kal to kill himself is a new low, even for u!!

Renarin's Illumination is really weird( maybe a stronger form of Shallan's ability to draw the best possible versions of others?) Would really like to read what everyones's thinking he actually did in that scene and why?

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1 minute ago, paperstones said:

With Renarins lumination I could see Moash finding redemption. There is the 1 other Honorspren that hasn’t bonded yet. I could see it bond with Moash. Maybe Kal “saves” Moash and that is what gets him to the 4th oath.

Noooo!

This is unacceptable.  I will be so angry if this is what happens.  If Kaladin reaches the 4th oath, it will be because he accepts that he can't save Moash [or his family, or his men].  

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Just now, PrinceGenocide said:

Also I'm surprised he still thought of his spiritual self as having both eyes and could regrow it. He was one eyed for a few yrs atleast. 

Didnt he feel incredibly bothered by it in his POV back in WoK?

As for the chapter itself, it is pretty cool. The main takeaway, Roshones death, was something we already knew though. But it was cool to see Moash confront Kaladin, and almost bring him down. And what exactly happened there at the end? With the light and Renarin and all that stuff? 

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I'm sorry, English ist not my native tongue, but why do you think Renarin made an illusion? To me it was clearly Odium trying to get Kaladin, and only when he (it?) vanished, Renarin came through to Kal.

Edited by Nahema
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1 minute ago, Karger said:

I thought it was a bit like seeing your own future.  Electrum but for another person.  External electrum?

If radiant Moash is the future that would make sense. It seemed more like an alternate version of Moash who made different choices, which would align closer to gold/malatium. 

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10 minutes ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

That's malatium.

That is the past of another person.

8 minutes ago, The Ryshadium said:

If radiant Moash is the future that would make sense. It seemed more like an alternate version of Moash who made different choices, which would align closer to gold/malatium. 

I suppose that depends what we are seeing.  Is this what Moash could have been or is it what he could still be?

9 minutes ago, Nahema said:

I'm sorry, English ist not my native tongue, but why do you think Renarin made an illusion?

Why would Odium help Kaladin?  Also a feeling of warmth is not generally associated with Odium.

13 minutes ago, Shardsplinter said:

Maybe the secret the GB don't want Shallan to find out will make her more Cosmere aware

I hope so.  This could be our first formal introduction to the cosmere!

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1 minute ago, Nahema said:

I'm sorry, English ist not my native tongue, but why do you think Renarin made an illusion? To me it was clearl Odium tring to get Kaladin, and only when he (it?) vanished, Renarin came through to Kal.

Yes but then odium would have created a illusion where the radiant version of moash would have been dead in some horrific manner or something like that. Not him being a hero. 

Also why would Moash run away from Odium ? 

And why does that light seem warm and encouraging and stuff to kal instead of seeming to simply be demanding his pain and bringing numbness to him. 

7 minutes ago, Shardsplinter said:

Also, Moash: trying to get Kal to kill himself is a new low, even for u!!

Renarin's Illumination is really weird( maybe a stronger form of Shallan's ability to draw the best possible versions of others?) Would really like to read what everyones's thinking he actually did in that scene and why?

Idl if he tried to make kaladin commit suicide. More like he tried to make him not care about anyone. Turn him into a numb guy who doesn't feel pain in exchange for not feeling pleasure either. 

 He seemed extremely nihilstic, I think he was trying to  Bring him over to his side so that they could help odium end the world together. 

Also idk if renarin really used some sort of special ability or if he used some clever psychology alongside lightweaving to hurt moash where he's most vulnerable. He seems smart enough to pull that off. 

The warmth kal felt reminds me of the spiritual sustenance provided by lightweavers mentioned in one of the epigraphs. 

Quote

Renarin's Illumination is really weird( maybe a stronger form of Shallan's ability to draw the best possible versions of others?) Would really like to read what everyones's thinking he actually did in that scene and why?

10 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Didnt he feel incredibly bothered by it in his POV back in WoK?

Huh I don't remember. It's been a yr or so since I read it. 

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14 minutes ago, Nahema said:

I'm sorry, English ist not my native tongue, but why do you think Renarin made an illusion? To me it was clearly Odium trying to get Kaladin, and only when he (it?) vanished, Renarin came through to Kal.

I really think that was Renarin's doing, but I do not think that was an illusion at all. Several ppl above already mentioned spiritual aspects of this display of power related to Allomancy.

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14 minutes ago, Karger said:

I suppose that depends what we are seeing.  Is this what Moash could have been or is it what he could still be?

That's true. I didn't consider the possibility that it could be showing Moash's potential future. Probably because I really don't want a moash redemption. Let that cremling stay miserable and lonely. We have enough people swearing oaths and becoming better people.

12 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Also idk if renarin really used some sort of special ability or if he used some clever psychology alongside lightweaving to hurt moash where he's most vulnerable. He seems smart enough to pull that off. 

We already know Renarin can't lightweave like the other truthwatchers. I don't think he has the ability to use lightweaving as you're describing it.

Edited by The Ryshadium
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Just now, The Ryshadium said:

That's true. I didn't consider the possibility that it was showing Moash's potential future. Probably because I really don't want a moash redemption. Let that cremling stay miserable and lonely. We have enough people swearing oaths and becoming better people.

#noredemption.

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I am so confused how Gaz was able to grow back an eye.  I thought Lopen was the weird exception to the rule that longterm injuries/disabilities don't tend to heal, and he only did it through shere unwillingness to accept his arm was lost.  Gaz's lost eye and the paranoia and fear it caused him was a pretty central part of his character in the brief POV we had of him.

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59 minutes ago, Michael Portz said:

Moash, the Anti Dalinar?

Yes. That was always the case. Odium is the void, who "takes the pain" and "gives you Passion when you need it".

I wonder if Renarin's A-gold like (or A-malatium like, but visible to all) effect was somehow linked to his being A Different Kind Of Truthwatcher. It would be very interesting if the Illumination of Alternate History was a thing for him exactly because Glys was touched by Sja-anat, the way that he gets those visions of foresight.

Also interesting is that it appeared to be an unconscious effect from Renarin. It reminded me of how Shallan first created a Lightweaving of a topological map of Roshar triggered by Dalinar's Connection and bond to the Stormfather. Perhaps whatever Moash was doing with or to Kaladin, to get him to surrender to Odium, triggered it in Renarin.

34 minutes ago, Gears said:

I think Moash will either be killed or commit suicide some time in the future. ... I do not see a way for Moash to survive the series.

I don't know. He felt pain at seeing the Moash That Could Have Been... The Moash That Should Have Been.

Perhaps like in the Wheel of Time, there will be a theme to the efffect that no man can walk so long in the Shadow that he cannot come again to the Light. 

Or maybe he gets the Saruman type of ending from The Lord of the Rings.

Or best of all, a completely new Sanderson take on a fall/redemption/somewhere in between arc that none of us will see coming. Storms, maybe he Ascends to be a vessel to a different interpretation Odium!

1 hour ago, PrinceGenocide said:

In a way moash really is trying to help kal . He isn't manipulating him , he truly believes it would be a mercy to kal. 

And what the helll does shallan still have to acknowledge.  Did she kill her grandparents as well ?  

ALSO I'M SORRY BUT DID NO ONE READ THAT GAZ IS A LIGHTWEAVER SQUIRE IF NOT A TRUE RADIANT NOW. 

I don't think Moash was suggesting that Kaladin kill himself, or to let Moash kill him (he had put away his knife and had not summoned his Blade). No, he was pushing Kaladin to surrender to the void of Odium the way that he had done - notice that he wasn't able to hear Syl any more as he started falling into that emotional numbness.

I don't even think Moash was using any kind of magic, Surge or otherwise, on Kaladin there. Just forcing Kaladin to replay events and thoughts in his head through intimately knowing his life, deeds, and thoughts, just as Odium had done with Dalinar at Thaylen Fields. The simple act of "accepting the void", that "it wasn't my fault" and "giving the pain" away (to a waiting Odium), would be enough for Kaladin to fall (...to become Odium's Champion??? Is that Vyre's "work?")

Yes, Gaz is a Lightweaver squire now who's healed his missing eye with Stormlight. I wonder how Bridge Four has taken to that?

But even more interesting is your speculation as to what deeper truths Shallan has yet to admit to herself. She murdered her father. She killed her mother. What is left in terms of painful, deeply repressed, life-altering memories in her life that we know or have hints about?

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2 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I am so confused how Gaz was able to grow back an eye.  I thought Lopen was the weird exception to the rule that longterm injuries/disabilities don't tend to heal, and he only did it through shere unwillingness to accept his arm was lost.  Gaz's lost eye and the paranoia and fear it caused him was a pretty central part of his character in the brief POV we had of him.

The fact that he lives paranoid seems to indicate that he did not accept his injury, for me.

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3 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I am so confused how Gaz was able to grow back an eye.  I thought Lopen was the weird exception to the rule that longterm injuries/disabilities don't tend to heal, and he only did it through shere unwillingness to accept his arm was lost.  Gaz's lost eye and the paranoia and fear it caused him was a pretty central part of his character in the brief POV we had of him.

I think the fear and paranoia was the reason he could grow it back. It comes down to how you see yourself. Once you see yourself as a cripple, you won't heal that injury anymore. I don't think he ever saw himself as someone with one eye. Or he never truly accepted it.

Edited by The Ryshadium
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2 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I am so confused how Gaz was able to grow back an eye.  I thought Lopen was the weird exception to the rule that longterm injuries/disabilities don't tend to heal, and he only did it through shere unwillingness to accept his arm was lost.  Gaz's lost eye and the paranoia and fear it caused him was a pretty central part of his character in the brief POV we had of him.

Its hard to tell.

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