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The quest against Ba-Ado-Mishram


Oltux72

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I think it was stated some were that B-A-M was providing the Singers with the ability to voidbind. After the mission something happened to the Singers that caused them to go into slave form. From this it is concluded that the mission was a success and B-A-M was captured. 

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We were told Melishi was planning to do something which only a Bondsmith could do during the False Desolation and Bondsmiths can manipulate Connection. We were also told that during the False Desolation, Ba-Ado-Mishram somehow Connected to the Parshmen and supplied them with Voidlight. There were also records that there might be side-effects. The spren confirm that the Parshmen's Identity & Connection were stolen somehow. We're also told about the Last Legion who went on to become the Listeners in Narak escaped before that happened. So what we've seen and what we've been told seem to support the assumption that Melishi succeeded in imprisoning Ba-Ado-Mishram.

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1 hour ago, Honorless said:

We were told Melishi was planning to do something which only a Bondsmith could do during the False Desolation and Bondsmiths can manipulate Connection. We were also told that during the False Desolation, Ba-Ado-Mishram somehow Connected to the Parshmen and supplied them with Voidlight. There were also records that there might be side-effects.

Well, so the mission did not work as planned. It has cut the Connection, obviously, but how does a partal success and a backfire allow us to conclude that a full success was achieved? And if it worked, why did they just abandon her prison?

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1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, so the mission did not work as planned. It has cut the Connection, obviously, but how does a partal success and a backfire allow us to conclude that a full success was achieved? And if it worked, why did they just abandon her prison?

They all abandoned a whole lot more than that. The Recreance happened.

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15 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Exactly. Hardly a picture of resounding success including capturing the most important Unmade.

Actually I'd say the resounding success probably helped lead them to that. They'd just turned an entire race mindless, on top of finding out that their powers destroyed their previous homeland and that they invaded the aforementioned race and now there's a perpetual war over the land.

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12 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Actually I'd say the resounding success probably helped lead them to that. They'd just turned an entire race mindless,

Look at Jasnah. Her probable reaction would be something like: Excellent. You have removed the threat of more false desolations, even without having to exterminate the Singers. Well done.

People do not react that uniformly. After yet another desolation horror cannot have been the only reaction. In fact I doubt it would have been a majority reaction. Relief may have been.

12 minutes ago, Honorless said:

on top of finding out that their powers destroyed their previous homeland and that they invaded the aforementioned race and now there's a perpetual war over the land.

But there is not. They have won. Finally.

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14 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Her probable reaction would be something like: Excellent. You have removed the threat of more false desolations, even without having to exterminate the Singers. Well done

I think this is an over simplification of her character and an inaccurate one at that based on one line. I am tired of such demonization of Jasnah. 
Besides I am quite sure that the recordings also show that not everyone was as on board with the idea of abandoning urithiru as others. 

 

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

And if it worked, why did they just abandon her prison?

Is there any evidence that Urithiru was her prison? You do not put all your eggs in one basket. I always thought that the abandonment of urithiru and BAM imprisonment were two simultaneous events, not a cause- effect thing. 
 

I think they made the plan to capture BAM hoping to strip the singers off voidlight. They succeeded in capturing her but they pulled out a lot more from the singers not just connection but identity too. Turned them into zombie type state. It was as good as genocide in fact much worse in my opinion. 
Windrunners and stonewards felt guilty immediately and abandoned their shards. For others, it was this plus honor’s ravings  about destroying the world and the fact that they were the invaders and may be also the thought that they have got rid of desolations true or false forever probably caused them to eventually give up their shards too. 

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14 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Look at Jasnah. Her probable reaction would be something like: Excellent. You have removed the threat of more false desolations, even without having to exterminate the Singers. Well done.

People do not react that uniformly. After yet another desolation horror cannot have been the only reaction. In fact I doubt it would have been a majority reaction. Relief may have been.

But there is not. They have won. Finally.

And that's Jasnah's reaction, one which Ivory lauds her for, and says her reactions are much less emotional than most other people's. We've seen one Vision from Tanavast regarding the Recreance and heard about the event from Stormfather, both of which point towards people who reacted by breaking down.

 

Maybe there were Radiants who didn't react like that. Maybe we're seeing a more uniform reaction for narrative purposes.

Edited by Honorless
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7 hours ago, The Traveller said:

I think this is an over simplification of her character and an inaccurate one at that based on one line. I am tired of such demonization of Jasnah. 

Demonization? Sorry, if it sounded like that.

Jasnah is basically honest. Remember that Dalinar was promising Kaladin that he'd negotiate? Well, he did not say what he'd do should those negotiations fail. Jasnah at least says it like it is. I have a hard time believing that all orders but one are so shocked by solving the problem once and for all. The council is quite typical. They might not actively push such a solution, but not that it has happened, well it is like it is.

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7 hours ago, The Traveller said:

I think this is an over simplification of her character and an inaccurate one at that based on one line. I am tired of such demonization of Jasnah. 

Uh, This is the person advocating for genocide and murder we are talking about.

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Do we actually know the exact order of events between the False Desolation, abandoning Urithiru, and the Recreance?

My understanding/head cannon was that the Tower began to fail during the False Desolation, then Ba-Ado-Mishrim was imprisoned.  Urithiru was abandoned at some point following this. Shortly thereafter, the Recreance occured.

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6 hours ago, Frustration said:

Uh, This is the person advocating for genocide and murder we are talking about.

I don’t really see that scene as her advocating genocide but merely pointing out a fact. “ It is also a way to deal with the problem” is what she was saying there. I believe that she was thinking only from logic standpoint, as she is encouraged to do so by her spren, we have seen. 
But the incident with Renarin at the end of OB also suggests that she is not as heartless as she is sometimes portrayed. She is capable of thinking a lot of thinks but that does not mean she is capable of going through with all of those ideas. 
One more incident comes to mind, when she had decided to hire an assassin to get rid of Aesudan but at the end had decided to not go through with it. And told her to spy. Although in this case, we wish that she had gone through with it. 

coming back to the topic at hand 

@Brgst13 my understanding of the chronology of the events was same too. And that is what gave me the confidence to believe that BAM was successfully imprisoned which caused the singers to be lobotomised and that proved to be the final nail in the coffin of ancient radiants radianthood. (Windrunners and stonewards) They had finally messed up big time as honor was raving that they would. ( lightweavers, Truthwatchers and others would be affected by this thinking too) They also believed that they had got rid of the singer problem once and for all and so probably believed that such powers are better kept out of the hands of humanity ( would greatly appeal to elsecallers) and then Recreance occurred. 

Edited by The Traveller
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The Recriance seems to have had several causes.  I like to think about it this way.  Honor tells Radiants that they will destroy the world.  Radiants are scared but they are fighting a war.  They cannot afford to give up the surges.  However actually winning the war gives several pointed examples of how dangerous Radiants can be.  What do you do when the most dangerous thing left on Roshar is yourself?  As to BAM?  They probably tasked some Lightweaver or Truthwatcher with finding a good out of the way hiding place.  I doubt they wanted more then one unmade in the same area so they probably did not put her in Urithiru.

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As a leader of a nation, I have no doubt Jasnah would advocate genocide. People tend to get hypocritical and emotional when family is involved and Jasnah is human and has human faults so that would explain Renarin. With Aesudan, her father died the very night she was making those plans and the grief very likely could have made her change her mind. Especially if she considered the grief her brother would go through if his wife was assassinated so close to their father.

Jasnah however strikes me as someone who if removed from the pain she is causing wouldn't hesitate to cause it. Her argument with Kaladin enforces it in my eyes. Not only was that the first option to come to her mind, it was one that she argued in favor for. She had a very simplistic answer, either literally put the Heralds through hell or commit genocide, she frankly refused to contemplate another option and used the excuse of logic. In fact she (and by extension Brandon) makes the same mistake that a lot of "logical" characters in fiction make. That only the most utilitarian option is the logical one, which flies in the face of history where often taking compassion into consideration has resulted in superior results. 

I love Jasnah as a character, and one of the reasons I do is all her little hypocrisies showing that she is more bounded by Alethi culture and customs than she herself likely is aware of. 

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