Metals are weird

[Urtan]

I think all of the metals are weird. We have the base 16 allomantic metals, which seem to have much deeper properties than just accessing the allomantic arts. You can literally riot or soothe a spren inside gemstone.

Another thing is... Isn't it weird, that anyone managed to shatter probably almost omniscient bring? adonalsium either had to plan it, or it was weakened by something.

Ruin was weakened enough by not having its "body" (which couldn't be some enormous amount of metal, as it fit into relatively small hole in the ground).

Also, why metals glow when observed by an Ascended beings as if they are full of power? 

My theory is that metals are the "body" of Adonalsium. Every god-metal has something special about it, but base metals are also weirdly powerful. That would explain the whole Shattering (even though I still believe it was a part of a plan). Adonalsium was just a mind without body like an super-advanced AI on a unplugged USB stick. It doesn't explain why Shards do have physical bodies. Maybe Vessels are the providers of both mind and body for the power?

On somewhat unrelated note, do we know if Adonalsium created Cosmere, or merely existed in it?

What do you think? Is it viable theory, or are there some gaping holes in it?

Edited August 19, 2020 by Urtan
Wrong title

[Weltall]

6 minutes ago, Urtan said:

I think all of the metals are weird. We have the base 16 allomantic metals, which seem to have much deeper properties than just accessing the allomantic arts. You can literally riot or soothe a spren inside gemstone.

That's not the metal affecting them, it's the magic. While there are some interesting properties of metals in the Cosmere beyond just the Metallic Arts (like what silver does to Cognitive Shadows and aluminum does across the Cosmere) metal as a whole isn't really that special. It just happens to be especially pronounced on Scadrial. By way of example, we know that what metal you use in a fabrial matters, but not that much.

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Ruin was weakened enough by not having its "body" (which couldn't be some enormous amount of metal, as it fit into relatively small hole in the ground).

It didn't need to be an enormous amount, what was important is that Ruin was slightly more powerful than Preservation because the latter put a little more Investiture into humans than the former. Preservation managed to split off just enough of Ruin's power that the two were once again roughly equal.

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Also, why metals glow when observed by an Ascended beings as if they are full of power?

Only on Scadrial, because power from the Spiritual Realm is 'shining through' the metal. Brandon has been very clear that the metals themselves are not the source of the power.

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It doesn't explain why Shards do have physical bodies. Maybe Vessels are the providers of both mind and body for the power?

The Shards don't actually have bodies; they sublimate upon Ascension as we see with Vin and Sazed and get mixed in with all the Investiture. The fact that the Vessels had finite minds before Ascending means that they're limited in how much of their Shard's power they can perceive and use at any given time and they're limited to varying degrees in how good they are at futuresight. The Shards themselves are basically just near-infinite amounts of Investiture bound by a driving concept that came from Adonalsium; they don't technically need a body but they do need a mind to direct that power. If a Shard is left alone without a Vessel there are multiple things that can happen, one of which is that it will develop its own mind, which we know can happen to any Investiture left to its own devices. Odium stuffed the power of Devotion and Dominion into the Cognitive Realm specifically because he didn't want anyone taking them up and he didn't want the power(s) to develop sapience on its own.

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On somewhat unrelated note, do we know if Adonalsium created Cosmere, or merely existed in it?

Adonalsium is generally assumed to have created the Cosmere by those in-universe who know he existed but we know that some things like the three Realms were there from the Cosmere equivalent of the Big Bang.

[Chaos]

Yo, you can't put Rhythm of War content at all outside of the Rhythm of War boards. I have moved this accordingly.

[Quantus]

13 hours ago, Weltall said:

That's not the metal affecting them, it's the magic. While there are some interesting properties of metals in the Cosmere beyond just the Metallic Arts (like what silver does to Cognitive Shadows and aluminum does across the Cosmere) metal as a whole isn't really that special. It just happens to be especially pronounced on Scadrial. By way of example, we know that what metal you use in a fabrial matters, but not that much.

I dont know, Wyndle mentioned in Edgedancer that they "must be metal" when they take a physical form because "there is a connection between our power, when condensed, and metal."  That jives with the commonality of God-metals as the recurring form of Solid Investiture, instead of also seeing crystals, gems, wood, or some other non-metallic solid.  It's always been RAFO'd as a later Dragonsteel thing, but I do strongly suspect there is something significant about Metal, likely some connection to either Adonalsium directly or the means they used to Shatter them.  

[inactive]

18 hours ago, Urtan said:

I think all of the metals are weird. We have the base 16 allomantic metals, which seem to have much deeper properties than just accessing the allomantic arts. You can literally riot or soothe a spren inside gemstone.

Another thing is... Isn't it weird, that anyone managed to shatter probably almost omniscient bring? adonalsium either had to plan it, or it was weakened by something.

Ruin was weakened enough by not having its "body" (which couldn't be some enormous amount of metal, as it fit into relatively small hole in the ground).

Also, why metals glow when observed by an Ascended beings as if they are full of power? 

My theory is that metals are the "body" of Adonalsium. Every god-metal has something special about it, but base metals are also weirdly powerful. That would explain the whole Shattering (even though I still believe it was a part of a plan). Adonalsium was just a mind without body like an super-advanced AI on a unplugged USB stick. It doesn't explain why Shards do have physical bodies. Maybe Vessels are the providers of both mind and body for the power?

On somewhat unrelated note, do we know if Adonalsium created Cosmere, or merely existed in it?

What do you think? Is it viable theory, or are there some gaping holes in it?

Are you trying to say Adonalsium was a giant robot?

On a serious note, I think it is clear there is some link between metals and investiture, but it may not be as pronounced as you think. Metals seem to more likely be the key to accessing investiture. We need to learn more about non Scadrial metals to really understand this, because the mistorn magic system skews our opinion of metals

 

[Urtan]

On 20/08/2020 at 4:50 AM, Chaos said:

Yo, you can't put Rhythm of War content at all outside of the Rhythm of War boards. I have moved this accordingly.

Thank you! Wasn't aware of that rule.

[Chaos]

5 hours ago, Urtan said:

Thank you! Wasn't aware of that rule.

I've put a bit more clear guidance in forum descriptions now, but yeah, with new material we quarantine them to a special area until nine months after the book's release. Check out this:

[Urtan]

On 20/08/2020 at 0:58 AM, Weltall said:

That's not the metal affecting them, it's the magic. While there are some interesting properties of metals in the Cosmere beyond just the Metallic Arts (like what silver does to Cognitive Shadows and aluminum does across the Cosmere) metal as a whole isn't really that special. It just happens to be especially pronounced on Scadrial. By way of example, we know that what metal you use in a fabrial matters, but not that much.

Metals give you access to Metallic arts anywhere, as long as you have the power. They might just be only "keys" to the power, but the powers are accessed in Spiritual realm where distance doesn't matter, so it works outside Scadrial (Hoid uses allomancy on Roshar). That means the power "shines" trough metal everywhere and blinds every shard (That might be a big secret in fighting shards).

The effects of metals on other types of investiture aren't bound to Metallic arts though. That means aluminum isn't as special with its universal powers. Every metal from the 16 has universal effect of some kind on other forms of Investiture.

The metals used on Fabrials matter MUCH more. Only regulation of power with metals is of huge importance (you are literally soothing and rioting spren inside a fabrial). The Fourth Bridge was probably only possible with those discoveries. The WoB talking about importance of metals on Fabrials is probably outdated, since RoW in 7 chapters has shown us that metals are absolutely vital in construction of more complex Fabrial technology.

Painrial is a good example of this. The captured painspren is made with external pushing and pulling metals to either push pain outside, or pull pain inside. The switching of the touching metals would be extremely simple. The casing is as small as a big wristwatch, which would make complex designs somewhat hard to achieve with Rosharan technology level. Although Navani did already reduce the size from fist sized (which still isn't as big), only to watch sized.

[Weltall]

55 minutes ago, Urtan said:

The effects of metals on other types of investiture aren't bound to Metallic arts though. That means aluminum isn't as special with its universal powers. Every metal from the 16 has universal effect of some kind on other forms of Investiture.

You're extrapolating from one example that was designed specifically for its real-world history to a universal principle. This is not proven in the slightest and there's no evidence that there's anything special about iron such that it affects Investiture on Roshar or Sel, or copper or bronze.

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The metals used on Fabrials matter MUCH more

Directly quoting from the WoB I linked earlier.

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Dearius

I was just wondering if the metal used to make a fabrial matters like if it's *inaudible* or something?

Brandon Sanderson

*Repeating* Does the metal used to make a fabrial matter?

A little bit. Not as much as things like this do on Scadrial, but there is some influence there. We'll get into those rules eventually.

Idaho Falls signing (July 21, 2018)

 

[Urtan]

6 hours ago, Weltall said:

You're extrapolating from one example that was designed specifically for its real-world history to a universal principle. This is not proven in the slightest and there's no evidence that there's anything special about iron such that it affects Investiture on Roshar or Sel, or copper or bronze.

Directly quoting from the WoB I linked earlier.

 

It is a theory. Of course it isn't as fleshed our as some others, since we just learned of the effects. But it is too big of a coincidence to be random. What makes zinc and brass special on Roshar? Absolutely nothing. If the effect on Fabrials is special only to zinc and brass, it would make it extremely random. 

The mentioned WoB is 2 years old. That I think makes it unreliable. 

[Weltall]

A WoB with a very direct answer like that remains reliable until such time as Brandon says something to contradict it or the books themselves do so. You don't get to ignore a point-blank statement just because you find it inconvenient.

[Urtan]

12 hours ago, Weltall said:

A WoB with a very direct answer like that remains reliable until such time as Brandon says something to contradict it or the books themselves do so. 

That's exactly my point. RoW already contradicts that WoB in first 7 chapters we have so far.  Regulation of the effects of Fabrials is already important enough to contradict it alone.

Imagine if you have a heater that keeps going on and on on maximum power as long as it has power or not at all without power source. Inconvenience at best and fire hazard at worst. And now imagine modern heaters with regulation mechanisms where you can choose the output with precision. Or if you want, atomic bombs and nuclear reactors. One is regulated, while the other isn't. One expels all the power in extremely short  period of time creating enormous destruction and the other keeps low and steady output for a long time making it possible for us to harness the power for ourselves.

By the way... Aluminum has an effect too (another allomantic metal) with another series of implications. If one metal is random, 2 might be too, but 3 are a pattern. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that duralumin works like it does in Allomancy.

13 hours ago, Weltall said:

You don't get to ignore a point-blank statement just because you find it inconvenient.

Have you even read the RoW chapters? Navani created an enormous flying contraption capable of carrying hundreds of people. That was only achieved after discovering properties of aluminum.

[WindJogger]

I have always thought that there is something fishy about silver not being an Allomantic metal and then I read the Silence short story and I was even more lost as it invalidated all I had theorized, so I just gave up on trying to guess stuff about it. 

[Greywatch]

Hi, all, this is getting heated. Please remember we're here to have fun; and in that light, let's give each other the benefit of the doubt when we seem to disagree.

This is a great resource one of our admins created, and I highly recommend taking a look through it.

If you think someone has crossed a line, please report the post instead of engaging further.

[Kingsdaughter613]

It seems like Silver is the odd one out, considering it has an effect on Threnody, but not on Scadrial. The obvious question is are there are more metals like that; is Silver the one exception and if so why; does Silver have an unknown effect elsewhere in the Cosmere?

[+Oltux72]

48 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

It seems like Silver is the odd one out, considering it has an effect on Threnody, but not on Scadrial.

Kelsier should be very concerned, if somebody turned up with a silver knife.

48 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The obvious question is are there are more metals like that; is Silver the one exception and if so why; does Silver have an unknown effect elsewhere in the Cosmere?

Why would it have an unknown different effect? It hurts and kills Cognitive Shadows (apparently only those without a body)

Shards have an associated metal for an unknown reason. We are learning that other metals have some properties which are more logical outside the Metallic Arts than inside them. They way tin and pewter work with fabrials is more straightforward than with allomancy. Allomancy is to an extent a designed system. Yet Preservation was surely conservative designing such a system. That is the key innovation is that he chose to power allomancy, not what the metals do.

[Kingsdaughter613]

Preservation didn’t choose to power Alomancy any more than other Shards choose their systems.

Silver hurts Threnodite Shadows. We don’t know that it harms others.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 8/22/2020 at 8:09 PM, WindJogger said:

I have always thought that there is something fishy about silver not being an Allomantic metal and then I read the Silence short story and I was even more lost as it invalidated all I had theorized, so I just gave up on trying to guess stuff about it. 

Why is it "fishy" that silver's not an Allomantic metal?

[Karger]

50 minutes ago, beewall said:

Why is it "fishy" that silver's not an Allomantic metal?

Because it has other cosmere properties most notably on Threnody.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

23 minutes ago, Karger said:

Because it has other cosmere properties most notably on Threnody.

Have we seen it have properties anywhere besides Threnody? It might just be a weirdness with shades specifically. Shades already have a lot of weird rules no other Cognitive Shadows have. (Also, WindJogger said it seemed "fishy" before they read Shadows.)

[+Oltux72]

On 16/09/2020 at 3:01 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Preservation didn’t choose to power Alomancy any more than other Shards choose their systems.

Why then are there sixteen metals? That is his number specifically.

On 16/09/2020 at 3:01 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Silver hurts Threnodite Shadows. We don’t know that it harms others.

True. Yet we have not seen a metal whose effect is limited to one place so far.

[Karger]

39 minutes ago, beewall said:

Have we seen it have properties anywhere besides Threnody

Silver is the other component of electrum.  Brandon initially had it in place of tin in the metalic arts.  He also confirmed in WoB that silver does stuff.

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Kenzal

Would it make an Allomancer sick if they tried to burn pure silver?

Brandon Sanderson

As it stands right now, nothing would happen, because they would know if it did. Good question. Silver has some weird properties, but on Scadrial they are largely undiscovered.

Skyward Atlanta signing (Nov. 17, 2018)

31 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Why then are there sixteen metals? That is his number specifically.

It might just relate to how the world was put together.  I don't know if Preservation is specifically associated with 16.  He may have just taken advantage of that in his sign.  It is worth noting that Harmony is also associated with 16 and that Ruin's magic system, hemalurgy, follows the same number.

[Realmatic Shadow]

4 hours ago, Karger said:

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Why then are there sixteen metals? That is his number specifically.

It might just relate to how the world was put together.  I don't know if Preservation is specifically associated with 16.  He may have just taken advantage of that in his sign.  It is worth noting that Harmony is also associated with 16 and that Ruin's magic system, hemalurgy, follows the same number.

16 does also seem to be a important number Cosmere-wide (see: number of Shards), so it could be related more fundamentally to the Cosmere itself.

[Karger]

7 minutes ago, Realmatic Shadow said:

16 does also seem to be a important number Cosmere-wide (see: number of Shards), so it could be related more fundamentally to the Cosmere itself.

True but I believe we have confirmation that scadrial does have 16 as its "important number" for whatever reason.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Karger