Realmatics: Cognitive shadows and the Kelsier example

[+Dalinar'sCroissant]

Hi!

If this has been previously suggested/discussed, please let me know... a cursory search didn't yield many results but I'd love to read similar ideas/discussion. I also wasn't sure wherher to post this here or at Mistborn but I thinkits more realmatic oriented anyway... I do appreciate guidance/advice.

So I recently re-read era1 and secret history. From what I understand, based on the texts and WOBs, Kelsier managed to remain in the cognitive and become a cognitive shadow because of the extra investiture he got at the Well of Ascension and by Ascending while holding Preservations power. So, clear: the more invested you are/have been, the more you can resist the beyond.

However, I also got thinking about the cognitive realm as we understand it. With soulcasting, for example, its harder to objects with a strong cognitive identity i.e- if it's a watch used for generations in a family, it's harder to convince it to change to something else. From what I understand, this is because people have thought about it in that way for a long time.

In regards to Kelsier, he started his own religion and mythos about being a survivor. So that means loads of people think of him that way. I get that objects and souls are different in the cognitive realm. However it got me thinking:

As the church of the survivor grew, then more and more people overtime thought (passionately and fervently so) of Kelsier as a survivor. Would this, then, give him a better ability to stay within the cognitive realm? Or even give him extra abilities to manifest in the physical if the cognitive aspect is that strong? We often joke that post catecendre he made yet another cult about himself... but what if that is just to enhance his cognitive properties?

Realmatically extrapolating this... if the above is considered possible, then if you somehow trick an invested world's populace to believe in someone as a survivor or something along those lines... then you could have the same effect? Someone as long lived as a shard, Hoid or Frost (or any of the immortals) could have started such a legend millenia ago to replicate the effect.

Or not. 

What do you think of this overly analysed shiwer thought?

[Honorless]

Maybe? The only thing we've seen in-book as a result of faith in Kelsier, though in this particular case it was closer to hero worship than Hero-God worship, was him being able to use the Connection to communicate. We don't know one way or another, nor do we have much to go on off of. 

[Eternal Khol]

I 

56 minutes ago, Dalinar'sCroissant said:

Would this, then, give him a better ability to stay within the cognitive realm? Or even give him extra abilities to manifest in the physical if the cognitive aspect is that strong?

I dont think so.

but there is a chance that there might be effects, right?

 

Similar to how if you saw Tanavast on Roshar today, he’d have double pupils

But any effects would probably far less pronounced 

 

 

Mason Wheeler

Double Eye of the Almighty, is that just symbolism or does Tanavast have weird pupils?

Brandon Sanderson

That is symbolism. But if you were to see Tanavast and you were on Roshar, he would manifest with weird pupils at that point.

Mason Wheeler

Reflection of how people believe? 

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. But the actual Tanavast before, he did not have weird pupils.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

Edited August 19, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[+Dalinar'sCroissant]

22 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

Similar to how if you saw Tanavast on Roshar today, he’d have double pupils

But any effects would probably far less pronounced  

Oh I didn't know that WOB, that's a cool ine!

Regarding the less pronounced aspect though, I'd argue differently. So people in Roshar think Tanavast has weird pupils, but this not an "active" belief. It's passive in the sense that it's a description they've heard and visualized in their minds.

With someone like Kelsier however, the belief is super active because people choose or grow in the faith of the Survivor and visualise him strongly (with both thought and emotion) as a survivor and a type of God. I wonder is this much stronger belief (especially after centuries) supercharges his cognitive aspect and the abilities he might have.

Which leads me to think of extrapolations... what if an immortal such as hoid or frost would have created a legend about someone millenia ago that people believed in?

Or, more concretely, could this supercharge help shard plans? Like, does this apply to an "avatar" such as Trell? For example, if this cognitive supercharge aids the powers of a cognitive aspect then establishing a religion such as Trellism around an avatar would give them an extra oomph in what they can do in the different realms?

Edited August 19, 2020 by Dalinar'sCroissant
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[Kingsdaughter613]

I suspect that Kel will appear differently if he is being the Survivor or the Sovereign. As the Survivor he’s viewed as deity, but I think the Sovereign is more of a King Arthur type figure. So he would appear differently on North and South Scadrial, possibly with minor personality shifts.

 

[+honorblades]

2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I suspect that Kel will appear differently if he is being the Survivor or the Sovereign. As the Survivor he’s viewed as deity, but I think the Sovereign is more of a King Arthur type figure. So he would appear differently on North and South Scadrial, possibly with minor personality shifts.

 

I think there is an additional layer of complexity here in that we don't know how Kelsier got a physical body again. These assumptions would be true about Kelsier's cognitive shadow, but depending on how Kelsier has stapled his body into the physical realm, the beliefs people have about him may not have any visible effect. 

I assume hat does not apply to his mental state, however. Much like what we suspect of the Heralds on Roshar, I would imagine people's view of Kelsier has some type of effect on how he views himself, and possibly on his actions as well. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

56 minutes ago, _edgedancer said:

I think there is an additional layer of complexity here in that we don't know how Kelsier got a physical body again. These assumptions would be true about Kelsier's cognitive shadow, but depending on how Kelsier has stapled his body into the physical realm, the beliefs people have about him may not have any visible effect. 

I assume hat does not apply to his mental state, however. Much like what we suspect of the Heralds on Roshar, I would imagine people's view of Kelsier has some type of effect on how he views himself, and possibly on his actions as well. 

Exactly this. I think the Sovereign and the Survivor act differently. Not that they have different personalities, but that different elements of Kell’s personality are at the fore. He’d behave one way on North Scadrial and another on South Scadrial. I don’t think 300 years is enough to make it very obvious though; you’d have to know him well to notice.
 

At a guess I’d say:

Survivor: more empathetic, more inspiring, more rebellious, both more intent on survival AND more self-sacrificing, more reckless, less sane

Sovereign: Colder, trickier/more manipulative, more of the leader/teacher elements, more willing to compromise, more stable
 

N. Scads seem to focus more on a Kell as a savior type figure, and focus less on his conman status. S. Scadrial seems to embrace Kell’s manipulative nature, and he seems to have ruled pretty well, which implies certain things. Kell is less psychopathic on N. Scadrial (who seems to think he was a far more empathetic person than he was) but he’s more stable and willing to compromise on S. Scadrial, despite being less empathetic there. 
 

That’s my guess anyway.

[+honorblades]

1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

N. Scads seem to focus more on a Kell as a savior type figure, and focus less on his conman status. S. Scadrial seems to embrace Kell’s manipulative nature, and he seems to have ruled pretty well, which implies certain things. Kell is less psychopathic on N. Scadrial (who seems to think he was a far more empathetic person than he was) but he’s more stable and willing to compromise on S. Scadrial, despite being less empathetic there. 
 

That’s my guess anyway.

This is a good analysis, and although we are probably getting off-topic here, I would love to hear your thoughts on how this may affect Kelsier in the future. 

The ending of BoM, and of course the actual Bands of Mourning themselves seem to suggest Kelsier has larger ambitions than simply helping the Southern Scadrian people survive. Leaving an artifact of that magnitude is unwise unless you have a similar or greater power at your disposal already, and Kelsier is nothing if not clever. Perhaps people's view of Kelsier as a sort of larger-than-life savior figure has elevated his goals? Could Kelsier be attempting to expand his sphere of influence beyond the Scadrian system? 

Man, The Lost Metal cannot come soon enough 

[Kingsdaughter613]

3 minutes ago, _edgedancer said:

This is a good analysis, and although we are probably getting off-topic here, I would love to hear your thoughts on how this may affect Kelsier in the future. 

The ending of BoM, and of course the actual Bands of Mourning themselves seem to suggest Kelsier has larger ambitions than simply helping the Southern Scadrian people survive. Leaving an artifact of that magnitude is unwise unless you have a similar or greater power at your disposal already, and Kelsier is nothing if not clever. Perhaps people's view of Kelsier as a sort of larger-than-life savior figure has elevated his goals? Could Kelsier be attempting to expand his sphere of influence beyond the Scadrian system? 

Man, The Lost Metal cannot come soon enough 

Oh, he’s totally wanting to expand his sphere of influence, though he’s doing it for Scadrial too. Himself first though, because that’s just who he is. I suspect he knows quite well what effect the planet’s populace’s perspective has on him and isn’t happy about it. On the other hand, it’s his home. I don’t see him staying away.

I think South Scadrial sees Kell as a very different kind of savior than North.

 

North Scadrial was never led by Kell. He’s a spiritual savior, not a physical one. He’s the person who inspires you, who lifts you when you’re lowest, but metaphorically, not physically. He’s Hope, a force more than a person. He left, sacrificing himself, but he’s always there. And when he left, well, he left a society about to collapse. His death lit the fuse under the bomb, just as he planned.

To South Scadrial, he’s their king. He lived among them for sixty years, during which he brought them from the brink of destruction to a thriving society. He’s a person, a powerful, manipulative person. He left, but he promised to return. And when Kell left the South, he left behind a thriving society - one he had built.

 

The roles are incredibly different, almost opposed. In the North he’s the guy who led them out of slavery and brought down the old, corrupt society, leaving them to guide themselves, under his spiritual watch. In the South he’s the person who rebuilt their society, becoming their king and leader, before leaving them to guide themselves until he comes back to reclaim the reins. 
 

Yeah, LM can’t come fast enough. I want to see these two viewpoints clashing!!!