Needles are Fiddly (CHAPTER 7 SPOILERS)

[Hessi's Ward]

As Ishnah mentioned, Blackbane works quicker when injected and she and Shallan concluded there should be a pinprick where a poisoned needle is used to kill Ialai. I am ruling out the possibility of Blackbane gum because there was no mention of Ialai chewing anything or swallowing something other than wine.

Some have suspected that Shallan, or at least a fragment or a suppressed fourth alter in Shallan's system, did the deed. I personally don't believe it was her and I think a hidden Ghostblood agent, either in Adolin's squad, among Shallan's Lightweaver team, with the cultists, or even behind the escaped door in the chamber, is a more likely culprit, though this is based on rampant speculation on my part. This is mainly due to the reasoning that poisoned needles are fiddly little odious things and Shallan would probably be very aware of it if she's carrying it.

Let's consider where the hypothetical needle would be if Shallan was carrying it:

1. Safehand sleeve (either in the pocket or as a device to keep the sleeve's end shut)
2. Her satchel (sketchbook included as a part of the satchel)

I find both options to be very unlikely because the needle risks being too close to Shallan's skin for the former and it could prick one of the cultists instead for the latter. If Shallan is hiding it in a secret pocket or even in her hair, she would be painfully aware of it, either from knowing where she had put it or if it had slightly pricked her during her time in disguise. Also, I don't think there were moments in the text that suggests Shallan was the murderer other than the dazed and a "Did I do that?" moment.

While one could argue that maybe Shallan or the suppressed alter fronted and murdered Ialai when Veil was still pro-assassination just before deciding otherwise, I don't think it's likely because someone else, most likely Veil, would notice. Also, I think if there is a fourth suppressed alter and said alter was the one who murdered Ialai, Shallan's now-canonical form of DID would veer to close to Hollywood DID territory and that would go against what I believe Brandon is intending, writing a good DID rep.

TL:DR Shallan didn't murder Ialai because needles are fiddly and is a little too Hollywood DID to be what Brandon is intending with canonizing Shallan's DID

Edited August 18, 2020 by Hessi's Ward
making the topic name less spoilery, spoiler warning

[Gilphon]

1 hour ago, Hessi's Ward said:

Also, I think if there is a fourth suppressed alter and said alter was the one who murdered Ialai, Shallan's now-canonical form of DID would veer to close to Hollywood DID territory and that would go against what I believe Brandon is intending, writing a good DID rep.

So, to me, this is a more persuasive argument than the logistics of her fiddling with the needle. Like 'Shallan has a hidden fourth alter that kills people that the others want to keep alive' is very Hollywood DID, which is exactly what Brandon has said he wants to avoid this book.

[GudThymes]

Quote

Either way, she suspected Ialai had been right: The Ghostbloods hadn’t trusted Shallan to kill her, and they’d sent a second knife to see the job done. That would mean they had an operative among Adolin’s guards or Shallan’s own agents. The idea made Shallan’s stomach twist.

I agree with @Gilphon as well. I think it's unlikely that a "Fourth alter" did the deed, and I think this quote kinda shows it wasn't Shallan herself. I am on board with a 2nd knife in the shadows theory. Personally I think it's Ishnah, I feel like mistrust in one's allies is becoming a big trend among the Knights Radiant right now and that more betrayals are coming.

[Ansalem]

4 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

So, to me, this is a more persuasive argument than the logistics of her fiddling with the needle. Like 'Shallan has a hidden fourth alter that kills people that the others want to keep alive' is very Hollywood DID, which is exactly what Brandon has said he wants to avoid this book.

Same. Knowing Brandon's general stance on representation in his stories I automatically wrote Shallan off as a possibility even before Shallan herself wondered about it. I had the benefit of recently learning about DID just as a general interest, though.

However, Shallan suspecting herself even briefly does make sense. Especially in a world where her condition isn't even known about much less understood. She's having to figure it out on her own, more or less. She still seems to think it happened because she got too good at pretending to be other people. Her powers probably did exacerbate it but they weren't the cause. Her childhood was the cause, her powers are more like a catalyst.

I think... well I hope that one of her truths will be understanding that her broken childhood isn't her fault.

[Hessi's Ward]

Thinking about it again, yeah, Ishnah is pretty likely. She has interacted with The Ghostbloods and is knowledgable in espionage. Maybe she made a deal with them or she was an operative from the start.

[*{kara}*]

Ishnah? I was thinking that she seemed trustworthy because of the way she approached Shallan. If she was an operative of the ghostbloods, she would have to be such a good actress. I guess we have seen that before in Mistborn with kandra—I just think it is unlikely that she’s the spy. Then again, that would just make her betrayal even spicier.
Personally I suspect Ialai was killed by someone unaffiliated with the Kholin group. A needle reminds me of Iyatil and her darts, so maybe it was her. Depends on what Ishnah finds, really.

[Hessi's Ward]

My first guess was Iyatil too. It's just that I find the Ishnah idea very interesting too. 

I think Iyatil could hide behind the escape door behind Ialai (which I call Chekhov's Door) and when Adolin and co. entered the room to arrest Ialai, she could shoot the dart and booked it immediately,

[Karger]

I can't believe neither I nor anyone else pointed this out but WE KNOW MRAIZE USES BLACKBANE DARTS!  He also monitors both Ialai and Shallan at different points and has no compunctions about killing people.  How is he NOT the most obvious suspect?  We are clearly overthinking things.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Karger

[Hessi's Ward]

It's just that no one noticed any dart or the sound of a blowdart being shot in the chamber, not even Veil who has been shot at by Mraize. If Ialai was shot during her capture, at least one person should notice and a dart should be present which is why I think there's a good chance Ialai was stabbed with the needle instead of shot. Let's assume the dart is not fletched and the air was just right that fletching was not needed, then yes, it's probably Mraize.

I do like the idea that it's Mraize though to be honest, any suspect other than Shallan is interesting to me.

[Ansalem]

40 minutes ago, Karger said:

I can't believe neither I nor anyone else pointed this out but WE KNOW MRAIZE USES BLACKBANE DARTS!  He also monitors both Ialai and Shallan at different points and has no compunctions about killing people.  How is he NOT the most obvious suspect?  We are clearly overthinking things.

Well, if it actually turns into a murder mystery plot line, the most obvious suspect is also the least likely. In order for the most obvious to be the actual perpetrator, the story has to first convince you that it definitely isn't them somehow, otherwise it's just bad storytelling. Plus, if it were a projectile dart it'll still be stuck in Ialai and Shallan would have a suspect pool fully populated by Ghostbloods. If it isn't a projectile but still a poisoned needle/dart, then one of the people escorting Ialai must've done it. None of those people are either Mraize or Iyatil unless the Ghostbloods have some other source of illusion. Or just mind-bendingly good disguises which might as well be illusion magic. And either way they can't just leave without defeating the purpose of disguising themselves in the first place, so they'll just be discovered anyway.

So I think we can rule out Mraize and Iyatil for either plot or logistical reasons. The Ghostbloods in general are still prime suspects, though.

If it doesn't turn into a murder mystery, then yeah it probably is Mraize. But it'll also just be revealed next time Shallan has a chapter and that would be kinda boring.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Ansalem

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Ansalem said:

Well, if it actually turns into a murder mystery plot line, the most obvious suspect is also the least likely.

I am just imagining trying to explain this to Wax.

2 minutes ago, Ansalem said:

None of those people are either Mraize or Iyatil unless the Ghostbloods have some other source of illusion

Or just a good vantage point from the back door.

[Hessi's Ward]

It would take a ridiculously good aim and timing, the right atmospheric condition (if the dart is not fletched), and loud enough noises to cover up the sound of the dart whooshing by

[Ansalem]

Just now, Karger said:

Or just a good vantage point from the back door.

I meant if it isn't a projectile then none of the people who were close enough are Mraize or Iyatil. Those two are way too easy to spot. Also, Shallan knows everyone she brought with her. The only believable way any of them can be Mraize or Iyatil is illusion magic. And even then I figure Pattern would notice, but maybe not.

[Karger]

7 minutes ago, Ansalem said:

I meant if it isn't a projectile then none of the people who were close enough are Mraize or Iyatil.

Mraize does in fact use projectiles.

[Gilphon]

I don't think a dart is gonna make enough noise to be noticeable. It's not like the room was silent or anything.

But a dart is gonna be visually noticeable now that they're checking her body for entry wounds. Like, if it was a dart, we should find that out in the next Shallan scene, and it's not gonna be much of a mystery.

[Hessi's Ward]

A dart would stick out but no one seemed to notice unless the dart was removed before Shallan could check the body. If Ialai was shot during her capture, she was surrounded by Adolin's men. If it was before she was herded out, Shallan should notice. There's an arguable tiny timeframe of when the dart could be shot, which is when Adolin broke into the room and Shallan is distracted but the same problem of the dart being noticed is still there. A stabbing would be a lot more subtle.

[Ansalem]

8 minutes ago, Karger said:

Mraize does in fact use projectiles.

Yeah, I covered that too...

[Karger]

15 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

But a dart is gonna be visually noticeable now that they're checking her body for entry wounds. Like, if it was a dart, we should find that out in the next Shallan scene, and it's not gonna be much of a mystery.

Unless they have some clever way to get rid of it.  An attraction fabrail maybe?

[*{kara}*]

Or they might have someone on the inside to remove it, like Ishnah idk
I’m interested in exactly how “quickly” the poisoning via bloodstream takes place. If it really does take effect instantly, then Ialai must have been killed while she was in the side chamber, out of Shallan’s sight. 
The only people in that antechamber that we know of were Vathah and some of Adolin’s men. If the room is in the direction that Ialai’s people went, there could have been an assassin-type person who doubled back to shoot her. I’m having a hard time picturing the layout of the rooms though... storms I love murder mysteries!

[Hessi's Ward]

Scadrians know about magnets, so one could assume that Iyatil knows too (either as a knowledge passed down through generations of the Southerner diaspora or as common knowledge in Silverlight). The problem is what kind of freakishly strong magnet would The Ghostbloods have access to if they want to remove the dart.

Also, a mole removing the dart would be a lot more effecient.

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Hessi's Ward said:

Scadrians know about magnets, so one could assume that Iyatil knows too (either as a knowledge passed down through generations of the Southerner diaspora or as common knowledge in Silverlight). The problem is what kind of freakishly strong magnet would The Ghostbloods have access to if they want to remove the dart.

Attraction fabrails (like Navani's) could easily pull out and retrieve a dart.  The GBs even have one to deal with the smoke in their lair.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Karger

[Hessi's Ward]

@Karger They still need to figure out a way to remove the dart without being noticed though. A dart flying the wrong way is even more suspicious.

[Karger]

Just now, Hessi's Ward said:

@Karger They still need to figure out a way to remove the dart without being noticed though. A dart flying the wrong way is even more suspicious.

Apply just enough force to knock the dart out of her body while they are moving her.  Then pick it up after team radiant leaves.

[Gilphon]

Having a mole remove the dart seems overly complicated. If there's a mole in position to do that, surely it would've been a lot easier to just have the mole kill her.

And they could theoretically use some gimmick to remove a dart, but why bother? It's not like anything they do could prevent Shallan from believing the Ghostbloods were responsible. And it would just add so many ways things could go wrong.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Gilphon

[Hessi's Ward]

Sounds risky to me. As seen in the text, team radiant searched the room before leaving. Ialai is still in the chamber to be searched for pinpricks. Shallan and her team will search every corner of the room. Veil noticed the back door and would most likely suggest seeing what's on the other side either by entering or tell Pattern to explore it for her.