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RoW Chapter 7 Discussion


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1 minute ago, Karger said:

Someone got in her head.  I do not want her to be a murderer.

I know what you mean and I am hoping it's not her or a secret persona of hers. 

However, she did poison her father and then strangled him when the poison didn't quite work. She's been poisoned by an ardent and her blood was soulcast to get rid of it. She or a version of her could have thought to do the reverse and soulcast Ialai's blood when she touched her. 

 

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So, I was reading the Hero of Ages annotations again (because why not?) and I saw this. We may not be seeing the exact same thing here with Shallan, but I definitely am worried. She is considering assassination as a perfectly reasonable and logical solution for her problems, which has to have some effect on her mind. 

Edited by Innovation
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13 minutes ago, Innovation said:

So, I was reading the Hero of Ages annotations again (because why not?) and I saw this. We may not be seeing the exact same thing here with Shallan, but I definitely am worried. She is considering assassination as a perfectly reasonable and logical solution for her problems, which has to have some effect on her mind. 

I'd say that applies more to Szeth, with all the voices of his victims he hears. 

That's a deep pull btw, nice job!

Edited by Child of Hodor
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6 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

I'd say that applies more to Szeth, with all the voices of his victims he hears. 

That's a deep pull btw, nice job!

I didn’t think about that. It does apply to Szeth much more. Still, Shallan using assassination as her first choice is going to have some effect of her mind, especially if she continues to do so. 

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Something just occurred to me. What if Pattern was with Adolin as a literary device preventing him from warning or preventing her from killing Ialai? What if that decision was made by Shallan (or a fourth personality) intentionally? 

I'm starting to feel very concerned, especially with that dizzy, foggy spell and general confusion between all three personalities immediately afterward...

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3 minutes ago, Solant said:

Something just occurred to me. What if Pattern was with Adolin as a literary device preventing him from warning or preventing her from killing Ialai? What if that decision was made by Shallan (or a fourth personality) intentionally? 

I'm starting to feel very concerned, especially with that dizzy, foggy spell and general confusion between all three personalities immediately afterward...

I think it was the other way around.  Shallan does not have an objective source(Pattern) so she can't know she did not do it.

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Other things:

  • Ialai mentioned that 'even the shadows had turned against her'. That... sounds a lot like she was becoming an Elsecaller. Or maybe a Lightweaver. It sounds like she was a proto-Radiant, in any case.
  • The Ghostbloods have become powerful enough that one Highprince was forced to make a deal with them, a second ran off terrified, and a third just sat there resigned to her fate. That's scary. And a few chapters ago, Shallan was thinking that Ialai was the most powerful person in the warcamps. It should be clear to us now that that wasn't true. The idea of the Ghostbloods now being the uncontested top dogs in the warcamps should worry us.
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1 hour ago, Gilphon said:

So not all anger is an Angerspren, but all Angerspren are anger. So of course people can be angry with an angerspren showing up. But maintaining that there is a sharp enough distinction between a cognitive representation of an idea and an idea is splitting hairs. It's certainly silly to invent an entirely new magic system where the only difference between it and Allomancy is that the new one only affects the former and Allomancy only affects the latter.

And recall that how Allomancy works (with an Allomancer) is that burning the metal Connects you to preservation, who sends you investiture, and then the molecular structure of the metal as a key, telling the investiture how to behave. So the purpose of burning the metal is that it Connects you to a source of investiture. So theoretically, if we had an Allomancer who was also a Radiant, we might expect them to be able to use Allomancy by just pushing Stormlight into a metal, and not burning it. That, I believe, is what we're seeing here- a Fabrial uses Stormlight as the investiture source it needs to create allomancy. 

I only said I was more willing to believe it's a completely different metallic art rather than allomancy. More likely it's just a principle of investiture that certain metals can have different effects. Look at how aluminum essentially blocks investiture. It's similar to allomancy, but it can be its own thing. Would you call nightblood's sheath allomancy because it's made of aluminum? Would you say that the bunker in Kholinar that was hidden from the fused was using allomancy? I believe it's simply how metals work in the cosmere. Certain metals do things when interacting with investiture. Allomancy is just a single branch of a greater whole.

Edited by The Ryshadium
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1 hour ago, Rainier said:

She hasn't reached rock bottom, yet. I'm expecting a continued downward trajectory throughout this book, as she struggles with the lies she's told about herself amid the lies of the Ghostbloods.

I concur; she's not there yet, but heading that way.

I also hope with all my heart that Adolin is there for her when she hits that bottom. I'm not saying he's gonna fix everything, but I hope he chooses to to stick it out with her and be by her side instead of taking the easier way out and abandoning her. Adolin has risen to being one of my favorite characters, so I hope he fights the good fight.

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4 hours ago, Solant said:

What if Mraize is actually another of Shallan's personalities, and he's using the Oathgates to set up dark eyed boxing clubs in basements in cities across Roshar?

Shallan is Chuck Norris confirmed!

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30 minutes ago, The Ryshadium said:

I only said I was more willing to believe it's a completely different metallic art rather than allomancy. More likely it's just a principle of investiture that certain metals can have different effects. Look at how aluminum essentially blocks investiture. It's similar to allomancy, but it can be its own thing. Would you call nightblood's sheath allomancy because it's made of aluminum? Would you say that the bunker in Kholinar that was hidden from the fused was using allomancy? I believe it's simply how metals work in the cosmere. Certain metals do things when interacting with investiture. Allomancy is just a single branch of a greater whole.

Previously, I would not have called that Allomancy, I would have just said 'yeah, that's aluminium being weird'. But this epigraph has made me revise that opinion- it now seems that aluminium's ability to mimic its Allomantic properties in other contexts is not as unique as we had believed. It now seems entirely possible- even likely!- to me that those things are indeed Allomancy. 

Certainly these things have more in common with Allomancy than Allomancy does with Feruchemy or Hemalurgy. 

Edited by Gilphon
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7 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

Previously, I would not have called that Allomancy, I would have just said 'yeah, that's aluminium being weird'. But this epigraph has made me revise that opinion- it now seems that aluminium's ability to mimic its Allomantic properties in other contexts is not as unique as we had believed. It now seems entirely possible to me that those things are indeed Allomancy. 

Certainly these things have more in common with Allomancy than Allomancy does with Feruchemy or Hemalurgy. 

I mean, I won't rule it out. It just doesn't seem like the same thing to me. We can agree to disagree though. We'll find out more eventually.

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31 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

Previously, I would not have called that Allomancy, I would have just said 'yeah, that's aluminium being weird'. But this epigraph has made me revise that opinion- it now seems that aluminium's ability to mimic its Allomantic properties in other contexts is not as unique as we had believed. It now seems entirely possible- even likely!- to me that those things are indeed Allomancy. 

Certainly these things have more in common with Allomancy than Allomancy does with Feruchemy or Hemalurgy. 

Your last point, however, is what makes me think this isn't Allomancy. Allomancy is burning metal to unleash their powers. Feruchemy is building things with metals to use their powers. Hemalurgy is embedding metal spikes in people to adjust their powers.

If anything, fabrials are more like Feruchemy than Allomancy, as they're built items that interact with investiture. However, I don't think it makes any sense to call it Feruchemy either, I think it's just the properties of metals in the Cosmere. Different metals react to investiture in different ways. You need to combine that with the source of the investiture, in this case the shards. Without Preservation and Ruin, I don't think you can call it either Allomancy or Feruchemy.

Although, I would expect copper, steel, pewter, etc. to have some kind of interaction with other forms of investiture in other systems. I'd want to see how it interacts with Breaths, and how it interacts with the Dor, and so on. But I wouldn't call any and all interaction between metals and investiture Allomancy because, again, we already have two other forms of metal-magic. What's one more?

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44 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

Previously, I would not have called that Allomancy, I would have just said 'yeah, that's aluminium being weird'. But this epigraph has made me revise that opinion- it now seems that aluminium's ability to mimic its Allomantic properties in other contexts is not as unique as we had believed. It now seems entirely possible- even likely!- to me that those things are indeed Allomancy. 

Certainly these things have more in common with Allomancy than Allomancy does with Feruchemy or Hemalurgy. 

I think it is more accurate to look at things the other way around.  Think of an allomancer as a fabrail with Preservation as the spren.

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So, I was going to let this drop, but apparently I need to quantify that last point a little more. 

What's sticking out to me here, and why I said that, it that it's specifically the Allomantic properties of the metals that are being used here. Covering a gemstone with aluminium doesn't mess with the Spren's identity, it blocks the effect. Brass doesn't control the temperature of the gemstone, it makes the spren less inclined to express itself. We're certainly not destroying the spren or stealing its emotional fortitude. 

All three examples we've seen are perfect matches for Allomancy but totally unlike the other metallic arts. If it was just the inherent properties of the metals and not Allomancy, you would expect it to be something that shared in all three, not specific a single one.

But, in fact, what I'm saying is that what was just revealed is that the Allomantic properties are the fundamental, cosmere-wide properties of the metal; that Allomancy is something far broader than we realized. Which raises the question of exactly what Feruchemy and Hemalurgy are. 

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20 hours ago, Karger said:

I think it is more accurate to look at things the other way around.  Think of an allomancer as a fabrail with Preservation as the spren.

This actually makes a lot of sense to me. 

20 hours ago, Gilphon said:

So, I was going to let this drop, but apparently I need to quantify that last point a little more. 

What's sticking out to me here, and why I said that, it that it's specifically the Allomantic properties of the metals that are being used here. Covering a gemstone with aluminium doesn't mess with the Spren's identity, it blocks the effect. Brass doesn't control the temperature of the gemstone, it makes the spren less inclined to express itself. We're certainly not destroying the spren or stealing its emotional fortitude. 

All three examples we've seen are perfect matches for Allomancy but totally unlike the other metallic arts. If it was just the inherent properties of the metals and not Allomancy, you would expect it to be something that shared in all three, not specific a single one.

But, in fact, what I'm saying is that what was just revealed is that the Allomantic properties are the fundamental, cosmere-wide properties of the metal; that Allomancy is something far broader than we realized. Which raises the question of exactly what Feruchemy and Hemalurgy are. 

I revise my opinion. I'm more open to the idea. So do you think duralumin could be the secret to faster airships? Like maybe it amplifies the signal or something. That would be cool!

Edited by The Ryshadium
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Brandon's posted his annotation for the chapter, telling us that Lalai had to die quickly because the series needs to be done with villains who don't have supernatural abilities or cosmere knowledge - as such figures are too easy as opponents now.

 

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2 minutes ago, rjl said:

Lalai

Ialai - i a L a i

The capitalized I (i) throws me, too. I pronounce her name as ee-All-ee (ee-Yall-ee, maybe). I've also pronounced it Eye-a-lie. Not sure what the proper way should be, as I read the books, not listen to them.

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9 hours ago, robardin said:

And Adolin's Shardblade, as he cut through the lock to enter the room with Shallan and Ialai, was "brilliant". Glowing. ... (More) alive?

I keyed in on that as well. In Oathbringer, Adolin not only got Maya to tell him her name, but also pled with her to manifest after only 7 heartbeats, and she complied.

A gradual path to full restoration, hopefully culminating at Lasting Integrity with the leaders of the Honorspren witnessing it. 

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12 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

If it was just the inherent properties of the metals and not Allomancy, you would expect it to be something that shared in all three, not specific a single one.

Several points.

  1. You only have three out of the sixteen metals possible.  That is not even close to a certainty.
  2. Why all three?  Sometimes the connections are hard to grasp.  You have not done the research(and because you don't live in the cosmere you can't).
  3. We have repeated confirmation that aluminum and silver both have properties across the entire cosmere unrelated to allomancy so in that case at least allomancy is "taking advantage" of an existing property.
  4. I don't think the aluminum in the Fourth Bridge fabrial is being used as part of the fabrail the same way brass or zinc would be.
  5. Brass was actually a mistake in MB.  Originally its feruchemical properties were supposed to be those of electrum.  Brandon had to switch them latter.
  6. I do actually agree that allomantic properties are a hint at metal properties but I still think this
    22 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

    Which raises the question of exactly what Feruchemy and Hemalurgy are. 

    is an erroneous conclusion.  Relationships still exist between all of the different properties.  For example...

33 minutes ago, The Ryshadium said:

I revise my opinion. I think there's something to this. So do you think duralumin could be the secret to faster airships? Like maybe it amplifies the signal or something. That would be cool!

I doubt it.  I am fairly sure duralumin enhances connection.  In the case of allomancy this is connection to Preservation so you get a boost to the speed of your powers.  In terms of fabrail science it might be useful to coordinate between several different ones or for things like translation but I don't think it will just enhance things for free.  Brandon never does stuff like that.

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36 minutes ago, rjl said:

Brandon's posted his annotation for the chapter, telling us that Lalai had to die quickly because the series needs to be done with villains who don't have supernatural abilities or cosmere knowledge - as such figures are too easy as opponents now.

 

Huuuh. Brandon just referred to Restares as a Cosmere-aware player. That's surprising to me- I've always thought of the SoH as ignorant of a lot of wider cosmere stuff.

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3 hours ago, Karger said:

I think it was the other way around.  Shallan does not have an objective source(Pattern) so she can't know she did not do it.

I don't think Pattern provides an objective source of truth to Shallan. I'm currently on my OB reread and just read the section where Shallan takes on Re-Shepir, and prior to that encounter Shallan flips through her notebook and finds a lot of disturbing images. She asks Pattern when she drew them and he responds with "I don't know". I'm stewing on a theory that Shallan's DID plays a role with her Nahel bond, and that as Pattern integrates more fully into Shallan's spirit web it means the power he provides to Shallan may be less accessible to the alters (or vice versa as we see with Radiant + Blade).

Edited by GudThymes
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4 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

Huuuh. Brandon just referred to Restares as a Cosmere-aware player. That's surprising to me- I've always thought of the SoH as ignorant of a lot of wider cosmere stuff.

They are called the Sons of Honor, and not the Sons of the Almighty. I can imagine the leaders of the SoH are more knowledgeable than the typical members.  

Edited by Innovation
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