RoW Chapter 7 Discussion

[Harbour]

25 minutes ago, Necessary Eagle said:

Ash's eyes!

Taln's palms!

Kelek's breath!

Nale's... nuts?

Inspired by Malazan's famous Hood's balls.

[+Child of Hodor]

3 minutes ago, robardin said:

An interesting question, and I don't know the answer to that.

Cosmere Realmatically speaking, by "soul" I mean a footprint in the Spiritual Realm - i.e., that which would serve as a template for Stormlight healing. Do spren have that? They are mini-splinters of Investiture to the degree that they are sapient, but are lacking in a Phyiscal presence without a Nahel bond, we don't know what that implies about the Spiritual Realm.

They have to be bonded at the spiritual level, they have separate minds and bodies.

This wob describes how the Nahel bond between a spren and a person fills in cracks in the person's spirit web. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/2/#e184

[Lightspine]

So probably the most mystery-packed section of this chapter (beyond the fabrial stuff) is Ialai's wine talk. Let's see how it can be broken down.

I'm going to start off a bit backwards and look at the last one first, just because of the implications it has:

Quote

Ialai selected a carafe of Horneater white—Shallan could smell it as soon as the top was off—and held it out. “I believe this is yours. Invisible. Deadly.”

Because of this quote, I think each of Ialai's wines is supposed to represent a person. In my initial read, I thought that Ialai was trying to hint at Shallan's disguise with her clear and orange wines, but now I'm not so sure. I think it's valuable to consider other possibilities.

So, let's start from the beginning now with the clear:

Quote

“That’s all?” Ialai held up her cup, inspecting the last few drops. “It’s sweet, fermented from a fruit, not a grain. It reminds me of visits to Gavilar’s wineries. I would guess it an Alethi vintage, rescued before the kingdom fell, made from simberries. The flesh of the fruit is clear, and they took great care to remove the rinds. Revealing what was truly inside.”

Is this supposed to represent a person who was rescued from Alethkar? It is also somebody who Ialai admires as "sweet" and reminds her of Gavilar. My first thought is Gavinor, but I don't know how he fits the "Revealing what was truly inside" part. This is a person whose secrets have already been exposed, somebody who has become transparent. Could this apply to Restares?

Quote

“It is weak,” Shallan said. “Powerless. Yet I taste a hint of something wrong. A touch of sourness. An… annoyance that should be exterminated from the vintage.”

“And yet,” Ialai said, “it looks so good. A proper orange, to be enjoyed by children—and those who act like them. Perfect for people who want to maintain appearances before others. Then the sourness. That’s what this vintage truly is, isn’t it? Awful, no matter how it may appear.”

“To what end?” Shallan asked. “What good does it do to package an inferior wine with such a fine label?”

“It might fool some, for a time,” Ialai said. “Allow the winemaker to gain quick and easy ground over his competition. But he’ll eventually be revealed as a fraud, and his creation will be discarded in favor of a truly strong or noble vintage.”

“You make bold claims,” Shallan said. “One hopes the winemaker doesn’t hear. He might be irate.”

“Let him be. We both know what he is.”

I believe that Ialai is taking a jab at Dalinar here, largely because of the phrase "his creation will be discarded in favor of a truly strong or noble vintage." This could fit really will if the previous wine represents Gavinor, who Ialai is claiming to support.

Quote

“Ah, here,” Ialai said. “Perfect.” She held up a deep blue. This time she didn’t offer it to Shallan first, but took a sip. “A wonderful vintage, but the last of its kind. Every other bottle destroyed in a fire. After today, even this bit will be gone.”

“You seem so resigned,” Shallan said. “The Ialai Sadeas I’ve heard about would scour entire kingdoms looking for another bottle of the vintage she so loves. Never surrendering.”

“That Ialai wasn’t nearly so tired,” she said, her hand drooping—as if the weight of the cup of wine was somehow too great. “I’ve fought so long. And now I’m alone… sometimes it seems the very shadows work against me.” 

This one is clear to me: the wine is Ialai herself. Or perhaps more broadly, the Sadeas family line. In this chapter, Ialai is clearly resigned to die. She sees it coming, even telling Shallan that “I won’t get to answer. They won’t let me.” This parallels the "After today, even this bit will be gone."

Uh, not quite sure if I actually uncovered anything here. I just want to present the idea that each wine might be representing somebody.

[+robardin]

3 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

They have to be bonded at the spiritual level, they have separate minds and bodies.

This wob describes how the Nahel bond between a spren and a person fills in cracks in the person's spirit web. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/2/#e184

True, true. Interesting

[Big Smooth]

It seems very possible to me that Ialai's "rare vintage" wine bottle in her room contains one of Gavilar's black spheres, which we have already seen go missing on-screen in this book. Ialai was close to Gavilar and she mentions him multiple times in this chapter, including both his grand plans and the fact that he had his own wineries. She is very insistent that Shallan needs to find the bottle before "they" get it, echoing the way that Gavilar talked to Szeth and Eshonai when he gave them spheres. Given the fact that the black spheres do not "glow" in the same way that Stormlight-infused spheres do, I think a dark violet wine could be opaque enough to obscure one..

[Gilphon]

So I really don't think Shallan could've failed to notice herself holding or preparing a needle. And Radiant being the one to kill her, after she was the one arguing against it the entire time? That's just crazy. If she had wanted Ialai dead, why not just back up Veil and outvote Shallan? And surely all three would've wanted to ferret out the secrets Ialai was getting at.

1 hour ago, The Ryshadium said:

I don’t see it as the same. Spren are not emotions. It shares similarities to allomancy, but it’s in the same way that the other metallic arts share similarities. I would be more open to viewing It as another metallic art of sorts.

Of course spren are emotions. They are pieces of thought that got attached to enough investiture to become self-sustaining. The thoughts involved are somewhat broader than Allomancers typically think of the emotions they manipulate as being, but it's all essentially same thing realistically speaking. 

Like, imagine a Rioter on Roshar. If they riot somebody's anger or fear, that's gonna make Angerspren or Fearspren more likely to show up; make them express themselves more clearly. And the opposite is clearly true for a Soother. So we can say that with Allomancy, you can use Zinc to attract spren and Brass to repel spren. And so, to get what Navani's talking about here, all this Rioter would have to do is target the spren directly instead of working through a middleman. 

It's not a new metallic art, it's just allomancy. Being used in an entirely new way.

[teknopathetic]

3 hours ago, SanderFan69 said:

My guess is that Ishnah is the one working with the Ghostbloods and she killed Ialai. Also I'm liking Shallan pov a lot better than in Oathbringer.

Shallan even says Ishnah is a most trusted confidant. My guess is that the poison was in the mouth-gag. The whole thing about “injecting” was a misdirect. Ishnah had direct control of Ialai’s mouth. 

Edited August 18, 2020 by teknopathetic

[Goatbringer]

I absolutely LOVE this chapter. The last book went into detail about how travel between the CR and the PR happens through perpendicularities, this book is going into the possibilities of other shardworlds being overtly discussed on Roshar. Ialai is talking about "exotic" vintages of wine, which sounds like she knows it's from off-world. Also the uncoincidental brass and zinc Metallic Arts pairing when discussing gem housings. 

I'm calling it now! Shallan is going to finish off this book by world-hopping to chase the Ghostbloods to Scadrial or Nalthis!!

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, Lightspine said:

I believe that Ialai is taking a jab at Dalinar here, largely because of the phrase "his creation will be discarded in favor of a truly strong or noble vintage." This could fit really will if the previous wine represents Gavinor, who Ialai is claiming to support.

Restares is another candidate.  Assuming Ialai thinks Shallan knows who Sadeas is then Ialai is pointing out that he has no real power and will likely be co-opted by someone either strong or noble.

1 minute ago, Gilphon said:

That's just crazy. If she had wanted Ialai dead, why not just back up Veil and outvote Shallan? And surely all three would've wanted to ferret out the secrets Ialai was getting at.

I agree.  My current theory is that the assassin hit her with a soothing, rioting or equivalent as a gaslighting method.

[teknopathetic]

Just now, Goatbringer said:I'm calling it now! Shallan is going to finish off this book by world-hopping to chase the Ghostbloods to Scadrial or Nalthis!!

It’s super hard if not impossible to leave the Rosharan system with your spren. But maybe she goes to Ashyn? 

[Necessary Eagle]

3 hours ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

Adolin calls Nale by his true name, rather than Nalan as vorinism teaches 

Yes, the expletives seem to use shortened forms of their names, at least the ones referring to body parts.

[Lightspine]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

Restares is another candidate.  Assuming Ialai thinks Shallan knows who Sadeas is then Ialai is pointing out that he has no real power and will likely be co-opted by someone either strong or noble.

That's a great point! I hadn't considered Restares for the orange because I thought Ialai had a high opinion of him, but he certainly fits being "weak" and "powerless" better than Dalinar. 

Another idea I just had is that this is applying to Amaram. He's the best example we've seen yet of somebody who wants "to maintain appearances before others" but is eventually "revealed as a fraud." Ialai could be referring to herself as the more noble person who takes up Amaram's role.

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Lightspine said:

Another idea I just had is that this is applying to Amaram. He's the best example we've seen yet of somebody who wants "to maintain appearances before others" but is eventually "revealed as a fraud." Ialai could be referring to herself as the more noble person who takes up Amaram's role.

Agreed although the tenses she use don't support that.

Quote

But he’ll eventually be revealed as a fraud, and his creation will be discarded in favor of a truly strong or noble vintage.”

Seems like she is making a prediction.

[+Child of Hodor]

1 minute ago, Gilphon said:

So I really don't think Shallan could've failed to notice herself holding or preparing a needle. And Radiant being the one to kill her, after she was the one arguing against it the entire time? That's just crazy. If she had wanted Ialai dead, why not just back up Veil and outvote Shallan? And surely all three would've wanted to ferret out the secrets Ialai was getting at.

Either there is a 4th personality she's not acknowledging or someone else did it. 

- She killed herself, booooring

- Someone with the Ghostbloods is with the party like Shallan suspects. Her thinking of it so soon makes me wonder if it's the wrong answer. Now i'm out-thinking myself. 

- Someone working for Restares or Restares was there to do it.

- Someone from the other 8 or so secret societies was there. 

- Shallan has another personality she is not aware of or has forced herself to forget. "Nihilist",  "Poison Ivy", "Emo-llan",  or whoever prepared a syringe of poison and pricked her with it.  

Maybe Shallan was super dark when she was ten and this is what Veil is referring to in chapter 2. "it might be time, Veil whispered. To remember, once and for all. Everything."

[bdoble97]

@Child of Hodor I really want it to be a 4th personality. I love the idea of Shallan and Adolin investigating the killer and its actually Shallan's 4th personality so interesting 

[Eluvianii]

19 minutes ago, Goatbringer said:

I'm calling it now! Shallan is going to finish off this book by world-hopping to chase the Ghostbloods to Scadrial or Nalthis!!

Imagine fifteen years later, Adolin is having a moment of melancholy looking at a picture of Shallan, deciding to finally let her go, when she storms through the front door, dragging Mraize by the neck and casually asking Adolin to bring her a bottle of Horneater white, complaining about what a long day it has been.

[The Ryshadium]

20 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

Of course spren are emotions. They are pieces of thought that got attached to enough investiture to become self-sustaining. The thoughts involved are somewhat broader than Allomancers typically think of the emotions they manipulate as being, but it's all essentially same thing realistically speaking. 

Like, imagine a Rioter on Roshar. If they riot somebody's anger or fear, that's gonna make Angerspren or Fearspren more likely to show up; make them express themselves more clearly. And the opposite is clearly true for a Soother. So we can say that with Allomancy, you can use Zinc to attract spren and Brass to repel spren. And so, to get what Navani's talking about here, all this Rioter would have to do is target the spren directly instead of working through a middleman. 

I disagree. No metals are being burned here. Also, spren are not emotions. They might be manifestations of ideas, but that doesn’t mean they ARE those ideas. Someone can be angry without attracting a spren. Spren are separate from emotions. It doesn’t make sense to me that this would be allomancy. Metals only provide allomantic abilities when burned. It is related, but not allomancy. 

[+Child of Hodor]

12 minutes ago, bdoble97 said:

@Child of Hodor I really want it to be a 4th personality. I love the idea of Shallan and Adolin investigating the killer and its actually Shallan's 4th personality so interesting 

It really could be. I was rereading, Shallan touches Ialai, thinks how disgusted at Ialai she suddenly feels. Adolin and Shallan say 3 sentences to each other and Shallan notices Ialai slumping in the soldiers arms. She's dead very soon after that. 

Shallan could have soulcast some of her blood when she touched Ialai. Wouldn't need a needle. 

[Lightspine]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Seems like she is making a prediction.

True. Amaram wasn't my initial guess because of this, and I also think it's just straight up more interesting if she's talking about something that hasn't happened yet.

Also, I somehow avoided writing anything about what Ialai calls the "rarest vintage." My gut reaction was that this is the blue at the end—since it's the last of its kind—but I'm reasonably certain that it represents Ialai and thus wouldn't make a lot of sense.

Ialai says that the vintage is "exotic." I think she might mean it comes from off-world, and it represents Mraize. This is because Ialai seems to be trying to tell Shallan a secret about what the Ghostbloods are rather than the Sons of Honor:

Quote

“They’ll send you after Restares next,” Ialai said. “But they’ll watch you. In case you rise high enough, learn enough to threaten them. Have you asked yourself what they want? What they expect to get out of the end of the world?”

Quote

“Don’t give me riddles,” the Three said. “Give me answers. What are the Ghostbloods trying to do?”

I'm not sure what the point would be of having a vintage from another world though. How would Shallan even identify it?

[bdoble97]

2 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

It really could be. I was rereading, Shallan touches Ialai, thinks how disgusted at Ialai she suddenly feels. Adolin and Shallan say 3 sentences to each other and Shallan notices Ialai slumping in the soldiers arms. She's dead very soon after that. 

Shallan could have soulcast some of her blood when she touched Ialai. Wouldn't need a needle. 

Soulcasting the blood such a cool Stormlight way to deliver the posin. Sad we have to wait a week to read more. 

[Goatbringer]

1 hour ago, Harbour said:

Inspired by Malazan's famous Hood's balls.

I thought of that immediately.

I also was strangely pleased by Nale's nuts as a swear! As much as I love his stories, Brandon can be a bit PG-13. This felt a little more vulgar than usual! Yay!

[Gilphon]

1 hour ago, The Ryshadium said:

I disagree. No metals are being burned here. Also, spren are not emotions. They might be manifestations of ideas, but that doesn’t mean they ARE those ideas. Someone can be angry without attracting a spren. Spren are separate from emotions. It doesn’t make sense to me that this would be allomancy. Metals only provide allomantic abilities when burned. It is related, but not allomancy. 

So not all anger is an Angerspren, but all Angerspren are anger. So of course people can be angry with an angerspren showing up. But maintaining that there is a sharp enough distinction between a cognitive representation of an idea and an idea is splitting hairs. It's certainly silly to invent an entirely new magic system where the only difference between it and Allomancy is that the new one only affects the former and Allomancy only affects the latter.

And recall that how Allomancy works (with an Allomancer) is that burning the metal Connects you to preservation, who sends you investiture, and then the molecular structure of the metal as a key, telling the investiture how to behave. So the purpose of burning the metal is that it Connects you to a source of investiture. So theoretically, if we had an Allomancer who was also a Radiant, we might expect them to be able to use Allomancy by just pushing Stormlight into a metal, and not burning it. That, I believe, is what we're seeing here- a Fabrial uses Stormlight as the investiture source it needs to create allomancy. 

Edited August 18, 2020 by Gilphon

[Cheat Commando]

Quote

Veil gritted her teeth, frustrated. She’d come here of her own volition. Yes, Mraize was always hinting to her what he and the Ghostbloods wanted. But Veil did not serve him. She had undertaken this mission for… the good of Alethkar. And Adolin. And…

And what?!? There's something missing here. This, with Shallan refusing to admit or confront something a few chapters ago, AND this little beauty:

Quote

We didn’t do this, Veil thought. We decided not to kill her, right?

I… Shallan’s mind began to fuzz, everything feeling blurry. Had she done this? She’d wanted to. But she hadn’t, had she? She was… was more in control than that.

All makes me believe that Shallan is indeed in that downward spiral Brandon warned us about. 

I admit that for the first 3 books, I despised Shallan's character. BUT! I read Oathbringer again and I started to like her. Then I reread Way of Kings, purposefully thinking of what was going to happen to her. Then I reread all of her flashbacks from Words of Radiance. I can now say that I am genuinely concerned for her. This chapter only made me feel worse.

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Cheat Commando said:

All makes me believe that Shallan is indeed in that downward spiral Brandon warned us about. 

Someone got in her head.  I do not want her to be a murderer.

[Rainier]

2 minutes ago, Cheat Commando said:

I can now say that I am genuinely concerned for her. This chapter only made me feel worse.

She hasn't reached rock bottom, yet. I'm expecting a continued downward trajectory throughout this book, as she struggles with the lies she's told about herself amid the lies of the Ghostbloods.