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RoW Chapter 7 Discussion


Jofwu

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So the way Fabrials use metals is apparently just Allomancy! Which in turns implies that Allomancers could strengthen or weaken spren, which is kind of fascinating. 

But what I want to focus on is that this is Allomancy without an Allomancer. You can apparently getting a Rioting effect just by rubbing investiture and zinc together. Which, in retrospect, we've seen from aluminium plenty of times; maybe aluminium isn't as special as we thought. But the idea that allomancy is just that easy if you have a source of investiture... that's huge. A lot could be done with that. The Scadrian medallions are just scratching the surface of widely-available Allomancy, apparently. 

But- if the Allomantic properties are just what the metal naturally does when exposed to investiture, where do the Feruchemical and Hemalurgic properties come from? Feruchemy in particular is a mystery in this context, since we've always known exactly what you need to do to coax out the Hemalurgic properties of a metal. 

And also- this could be the key to getting reverse compounding to work, couldn't it? Use a piece of zinc that's been 'activated' like this as a metalmind in order to tap Riotting. 

Just... Wow. What an epigraph. I'm certain Navani has no idea just how many world-shaking implications are that pretty simple sentence she just said. 

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Y’all have covered the Allomancy tie ins fairly well. So I’ll move on to another thing that jumps out at me. If the Ghostbloods are supposed to be a major theme in this book, how is Shallan going to have time to deal with them AND go on a journey to Shadesmar? Obviously maybe they won’t have to do as much traveling as in OB... but it still seems like an arc that major would take a lot of on screen time. I’m feeling like maybe the Ghostbloods aren’t going to be that big of a thing as quickly as they’re unraveling. 

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19 minutes ago, The Ryshadium said:

Ishnah is probably the Ghostbloods spy. We know she was super eager to join them in Oathbringer, and I wouldn’t be surprised if she went behind Shallan‘s back. Honestly, I’m surprised Shallan trusts her so much. 

Well the Ghostbloods themselves told Shallan that Ishnah was someone of minimal importance and relatively trustworthy, thus she clearly couldn't be a Ghostblood :P 

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13 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

So the way Fabrials use metals is apparently just Allomancy! Which in turns implies that Allomancers could strengthen or weaken spren, which is kind of fascinating. 

I get what you mean, but I think what is happening here is that because all Cosmere magics operate on the same principles, the allomantic metals for Rioting and Soothing can have similar effects when used in a different magic system. I know I'm being a bit pedantic, but I think calling this "Allomancy" is inaccurate.

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26 minutes ago, bdoble97 said:

I have delt with people that talk to them self's at work most times they are intoxicated by alchohol or drugs and it's a  extremely hostal situation

I also talk to myself and am not hostile(except early in the mornings).  I respect your experience but perhaps a counterexample.  Plenty of people talk to themselves on the subway.  You might not even notice.

24 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

So the way Fabrials use metals is apparently just Allomancy! Which in turns implies that Allomancers could strengthen or weaken spren, which is kind of fascinating. 

Another interesting way to think about it is all alomancers are fabrails of preservation

Edited by Karger
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2 minutes ago, psc92 said:

I get what you mean, but I think what is happening here is that because all Cosmere magics operate on the same principles, the allomantic metals for Rioting and Soothing can have similar effects when used in a different magic system. I know I'm being a bit pedantic, but I think calling this "Allomancy" is inaccurate.

The thing is that it's not just a similar effect, it's exactly the same effect. Like a spren is a piece of living emotion, and zinc and brass are being used to strengthen and weaken it. It's not just a parallel acting on the same principles, it's the same principles leading to the same outcome in two different places.

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1 minute ago, Gilphon said:

The thing is that it's not just a similar effect, it's exactly the same effect. Like a spren is a piece of living emotion, and zinc and brass are being used to strengthen and weaken it. It's not just a parallel acting on the same principles, it's the same principles leading to the same outcome in two different places.

I don’t see it as the same. Spren are not emotions. It shares similarities to allomancy, but it’s in the same way that the other metallic arts share similarities. I would be more open to viewing It as another metallic art of sorts.

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We've been talking a lot about Allomantic connections but what popped out to me was this:

Quote

Zinc wires touching the gemstone will cause the spren inside to more strongly manifest, while brass will cause the spren to withdraw and its power to dim. (from the epigraph)

Quote

Where was the fifth soldier? There, near an overturned table, fiddling with something that glowed a deep violet-black. Voidlight? Wait… was that a fabrial? The light dimmed suddenly.

I think it's strongly hinted that this fabrial is using brass somehow.

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@Karger . You know what, after thinking about it whenever I have interactions with people like this it's because they're already going downhill and are causing a disruption in the group home that they live in or out in public so I really don't have any interactions with people with these type of disorders when they're just having a normal day. So I can't really talk about this because I don't know enough about it. But I do love the character of Shallan and hope to gain. A insite on someone with this disabilities normal day today Living because Brandon Sanderson stating he has spoken to people with these type of disability correct. Hopefully that made sense doing voice to text while driving home shhhhh dont tell anyone I'm texting while driving haha

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Shallan is so good at lying to herself that she doesn't even know if it was her who poisoned Ialai. She hides it well but now it's clear that she's way worse than a year ago.

The fight with Kaladin was hilarious. Making assumptions about the enemy is dangerous, you would think after so many Desolations they would know that.

This book is shaping up to have a lot of science involved. I can't wait to see all the details. More on Voidlight too.

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What? Mraize, the criminal mastermind, was lying to Shallan and using her to do his dirty work? How can it be. We never saw it coming!

 

JK-- I think we've all been waiting for the other shoe to drop on Shallan with the Ghostbloods, and I am so here for it! Bring me more secrets!!!

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5 minutes ago, Solant said:

What if Mraize is actually another of Shallan's personalities, and he's using the Oathgates to set up dark eyed boxing clubs in basements in cities across Roshar?

... I'll let myself out. :mellow:

Or what if Restares is her 4th personality??

Nah but seriously, I kind of felt like Brands was hanging a lampshade on Ishnah, cuz he specifically pointed out how Shallan (or whoever of the Three was in control at that point) was questioning Gaz and Red, who had been with her since the beginning but not Ishnah. Ishnah seems like she makes the most sense too as a Ghostblood plant cuz everything Shallan knows about her comes from the Ghostbloods, but twice we see Shallan just completely trust Ishnah without question, I think a lampshade for sure.

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3 hours ago, TMC29ZX said:

Well this answered my question as far as Adolin knowing about Shallan's other personalities. Imagine getting into an argument and then realizing you're arguing with a completely different personality.  I think my wife would kill me if I asked "which one are you"  ever under any circumstances but she seems to take it in stride and keep rolling. The implications for their marriage are pretty staggering and it's just thrown in they're like "Oh, you're you and not the other you, ok, no problem." 

Pretty sure when Shallan and Adolin were taking at the end of OB and she chooses him, she asks him which one he wants and explains who Veil and Radiant are, so he knows then. 

3 hours ago, rjl said:

This gave us a more sinister angle on the ghostbloods than we've seen since Words of Radiance, and also raised a question of who among Shallan and Adolin's men is actually for the Ghostbloods.

My money is on Ishnah!  She set off the Spidey sense from the second Shallan has her see Ialai off. Maybe it's too obvious though since she admitted to Shallan that she's very experienced with the poison. I was cringing when Shallan tasks her to look for signs that it wasn't self inflicted, since I think she was the one who inflicted it!  Parallels to Dalinar asking Adolin to investigate Sadeus' murder!

Brandon hinted at it with his opening "refresher" of who Ishnah is, saying she's one of Shallan's most trusted. The fact that she approached Shallan means it's easier to see her as a plant all along. 

I could see Gaz as well since we know he has a history of getting in debt and desparate for money to pay it off, so that's something that can be exploited. 

19 minutes ago, Kesamijr said:

Or what if Restares is her 4th personality??

YES!

Nah but seriously, I kind of felt like Brands was hanging a lampshade on Ishnah, cuz he specifically pointed out how Shallan (or whoever of the Three was in control at that point) was questioning Gaz and Red, who had been with her since the beginning but not Ishnah. Ishnah seems like she makes the most sense too as a Ghostblood plant cuz everything Shallan knows about her comes from the Ghostbloods, but twice we see Shallan just completely trust Ishnah without question, I think a lampshade for sure.

She says that she's been with her a little over a year, and along with Red and the deserters, was among her most trusted. So to me that's a little different than saying she hadn't been there from the beginning like Red, but I agree he's pointing out to us that Shallan trusts her which could be a hint that she shouldn't trust her. 

Quote

“Ishnah,” Shallan called, drawing the attention of one of her agents. The short Alethi woman hastened over. She’d been with Shallan for over a year now, and—along with Vathah, leader of the deserters that Shallan had recruited—was one of those she trusted most.

 

1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Well the Ghostbloods themselves told Shallan that Ishnah was someone of minimal importance and relatively trustworthy, thus she clearly couldn't be a Ghostblood :P 

Or she's been a Ghostblood plant from the beginning and they told Shallan that specifically so Shallan would trust her...

Possible continuity error, Kaladin notes that of the soldiers he is about to fight on the manor one has a sword and the rest spears,

Quote

Five soldiers, Kaladin noted. Four with spears, one with a sword.

Then during the fight 

Quote

The two soldiers on his left recovered and leaped for him. Kaladin felt the wind encircle him as he spun between the two of them, catching one sword—aimed low—with the butt of his spear as he caught the second one—aimed high—right behind the spear’s head. Metal met wood with a familiar thunk, and Kaladin finished his spin, throwing off both weapons.

That reads to me as if both blows he blocks are swords, but "the second one" could just mean weapon. 

Edited by cfphelps
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7 minutes ago, Kesamijr said:

Or what if Restares is her 4th personality??

Nah but seriously, I kind of felt like Brands was hanging a lampshade on Ishnah, cuz he specifically pointed out how Shallan (or whoever of the Three was in control at that point) was questioning Gaz and Red, who had been with her since the beginning but not Ishnah. Ishnah seems like she makes the most sense too as a Ghostblood plant cuz everything Shallan knows about her comes from the Ghostbloods, but twice we see Shallan just completely trust Ishnah without question, I think a lampshade for sure.

I definitley agree. I read a pretty convincing theory over on Reddit that said that it was actually Shallan who did it. Notice that events happened in this order:

-Shallan grabs Ialai to lightweave her a disguise

-she feels a surge of hatred towards Ialai

-she lets go of Ialai, and reaches into her satchel, and becomes Radiant

-Radiant grabs Ialai again, and brings her to the soldiers

That seems very suspicious to me. There is a problem with the fact that she turned into Radiant right before grabbing Ialai, but it seems obvious to me that Shallan at least attempted to assasinate Ialai. The fact that Ialai dies a short time later heavily implies that she succeeded.

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2 hours ago, robardin said:

The Physical metals (pewter, tin, iron, steel) probably have no effect for a spren's functioning in a fabrial, nor even copper or bronze. I joked about gold or electrum, but I suspect those require a Spiritual self to work and a spren wouldn't have that.

Spren have souls.  What do you think Kaladin's soul is bonded with?

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1 minute ago, Gderu said:

I definitley agree. I read a pretty convincing theory over on Reddit that said that it was actually Shallan who did it. Notice that events happened in this order:

-Shallan grabs Ialai to lightweave her a disguise

-she feels a surge of hatred towards Ialai

-she lets go of Ialai, and reaches into her satchel, and becomes Radiant

-Radiant grabs Ialai again, and brings her to the soldiers

That seems very suspicious to me. There is a problem with the fact that she turned into Radiant right before grabbing Ialai, but it seems obvious to me that Shallan at least attempted to assasinate Ialai. The fact that Ialai dies a short time later heavily implies that she succeeded.

This is a good theory as well!  Especially since Shallan notes that she has been studying poison lately.  She even suspects her self...which could me a point for or against the theory with her mental state.

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Just now, Karger said:

Spren have souls.  What do you think Kaladin's soul is bonded with?

An interesting question, and I don't know the answer to that.

Cosmere Realmatically speaking, by "soul" I mean a footprint in the Spiritual Realm - i.e., that which would serve as a template for Stormlight healing. Do spren have that? They are mini-splinters of Investiture to the degree that they are sapient, but are lacking in a Phyiscal presence without a Nahel bond, we don't know what that implies about the Spiritual Realm.

Thought experiment/counter-question then: Ashravan, the eponymous Emperor of The Emperor's Soul... (Spoilered since this is technically a Stormlight sub-forum, yeah?) --

Spoiler

does he actually have a soul at the end of the story, Realmatically speaking? Even as he is sapient, self-aware, thinks and remembers things, etc.? What would trying to heal him with Regrowth do?

 

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