The Sovereign and the Lord Ruler

[MasterK-Bob]

Spoiler for Bands of Mourning and Secret History follow:

 

 

Okay, I wanted to ask whether Kelsier intended people to understand him as the Lord Ruler when he went to Southern Scadrial, or whether that was never intended, and it was only a misinterpretation on the part of Wax and company of what Allik was saying? I suspect Kelsier used the Lord Ruler as something of a model, but is it the case that like, if people from Northern Scadrial ever found out what he was doing down there, he actually intended them to think the Lord Ruler had somehow returned and saved them? I just want clarification on it, but I can't think of good keywords to try to get that specific answer out of WoBs. When I tried I got wayyyy too many that weren't directly relevant.

[Karger]

17 minutes ago, MasterK-Bob said:

Okay, I wanted to ask whether Kelsier intended people to understand him as the Lord Ruler when he went to Southern Scadrial, or whether that was never intended, and it was only a misinterpretation on the part of Wax and company of what Allik was saying?

Yeah.  Hoid wanted to blow his cover.  That is why he gave Wax the coin.

Quote

Viridian

Why did Hoid give the memory coin to Wax? What was his intention?

Brandon Sanderson

He thought that certain information was being kept, and certain lies were being perpetuated. And Hoid was a fan of that information being out.

Viridian

I'm still suspicious.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, you should be suspicious of Hoid's motive. He and Kelsier do not get along. Let's just say... Kelsier did not want that information to get out.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by Karger

[RShara]

3 hours ago, MasterK-Bob said:

Spoiler for Bands of Mourning and Secret History follow:

 

 

Okay, I wanted to ask whether Kelsier intended people to understand him as the Lord Ruler when he went to Southern Scadrial, or whether that was never intended, and it was only a misinterpretation on the part of Wax and company of what Allik was saying? I suspect Kelsier used the Lord Ruler as something of a model, but is it the case that like, if people from Northern Scadrial ever found out what he was doing down there, he actually intended them to think the Lord Ruler had somehow returned and saved them? I just want clarification on it, but I can't think of good keywords to try to get that specific answer out of WoBs. When I tried I got wayyyy too many that weren't directly relevant.

I don't think Kelsier wanted to be thought of as the Lord Ruler. I think that was just a misunderstanding from Wax and Marasi.

[+robardin]

9 hours ago, RShara said:

I don't think Kelsier wanted to be thought of as the Lord Ruler. I think that was just a misunderstanding from Wax and Marasi.

Well there are two parts to that, yeah?

The Southerners (as I'll call them) wouldn't know anything about The Lord Ruler and his Final Empire anyway, so no, he didn't need to present himself as TLR to them. What would be the point?

But everything that made Wax and Co. think the Sovereign was a Reformed Rashek does seem like it was specifically planted there as suggestions to any Northerners who eventually learned of the temple and its place in Southerner Medallion technology to think of TLR.

• "[The Sovereign] told us he came from [the Northern Hemisphere], where he had been a king and a god". Well Kelsier was indeed revered as a god, but he never ruled as a king - why say that to them, except to ensure that when Northerners eventually heard that, they'd think of TLR and nobody else?
• According to Wax and Marasi, the legends of the Lord Ruler's own metalminds, that he'd worn as arm bracers and that Vin Pushed out of the palace window, being something that would grant all Metalborn powers are supposed to date back to right after the Catacendre (basically after the Words of Founding revealed stuff like the nature of Rashek's powers). Possibly even a little before.
• ...And The Sovereign took pains to describe the artifact that he would leave at his secret and remote Temple, guarded by his most trusted priests, would look like metal bracers worn on the upper arms. Presumably he walked around wearing them while doing his Sovereigning, so that the iconography of the "false bands" around the empty display stand would work.
• Yet, the whole pun about them being "bands" (like arm bands) vs. simply being entwined "bands" of metal joined together in a single large object (the spearhead) is probably only a pun in the language of The Final Empire and the Era 2 Northern Hemisphere that derived from it. Allik and the other Southerners would just think "ah, it was just another little test of misdirection such as The Sovereign was fond of", but it's Marasi who would have the face-palming moment of Bands... wait, THOSE are the bands! Oh Preservation, he seeded that dad joke 350 years ago?.

And what else would the WoB mean, about the coppermind medallion/coin that Hoid gave to Wax revealing information that Kelsier "did not want to get out", except that Kelsier had engineered all of that to cover up his tracks (with the most obvious, perhaps only, person who might be expected to have access to all the Metalborn powers being The Lord Ruler)?

Edited August 17, 2020 by robardin

[Hoid the Former Drifter]

14 hours ago, Karger said:

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, you should be suspicious of Hoid's motive. He and Kelsier do not get along. Let's just say... Kelsier did not want that information to get out.

This is a gross understatement. They literally had a brawl in the Well of Ascension.

[ftl]

Yeah, I think in future books we'll encounter more of Kelsier and his legacy in the south, and we'll find out more about what he was up to. Then Hoid's (and Kelsier's) actions might make more sense. 

[Hoid the Former Drifter]

9 hours ago, ftl said:

Yeah, I think in future books we'll encounter more of Kelsier and his legacy in the south, and we'll find out more about what he was up to. Then Hoid's (and Kelsier's) actions might make more sense. 

Isn't this going to come up in The Lost Metal?

By the way, I hope Kelsier himself is in that book.

[Kingsdaughter613]

He obviously wasn’t hiding it from the Southerners, because he had his scars on full display. He also has WAY too much ego to pretend to be someone he hates.

 

The North is... a much bigger question. Kell may have intentionally misled regarding his identity... but then why use the spear imagery at all? (It was a pretty big tip off.) Not to mention, if he’s not covering his arms, he’s not dying his hair. So all someone needs to do is discover the Sovereign was a blond... or had scars on his arms. And that’s if his personality doesn’t give it away first. (How I figured it out.)
 

I honestly think it’s more likely that Kell used a pre-existing myth to his own advantage. He doesn’t seem to have created the myth himself, as he took ten years or so to come back, then spent 60 in the South. He could have had Spook do it though.

 

It’s worth noting that we haven’t seen all the memories in the Coppermind, so Brandon could be allowing us to assume X when it’s really Y. He’s done this before, and I’m suspicious. It’s just... too straight forward?

 

The Temple was probably intended to bring North and South together, as it ultimately did. They were both primed to seek it out. And Kell is probably still wearing the bracers everyone thought they were looking for... if he really is a feruchemist now, he’ll need them.

[LifeBeforeDeath]

On 8/17/2020 at 4:01 AM, MasterK-Bob said:

Spoiler for Bands of Mourning and Secret History follow:

 

 

Okay, I wanted to ask whether Kelsier intended people to understand him as the Lord Ruler when he went to Southern Scadrial, or whether that was never intended, and it was only a misinterpretation on the part of Wax and company of what Allik was saying? I suspect Kelsier used the Lord Ruler as something of a model, but is it the case that like, if people from Northern Scadrial ever found out what he was doing down there, he actually intended them to think the Lord Ruler had somehow returned and saved them? I just want clarification on it, but I can't think of good keywords to try to get that specific answer out of WoBs. When I tried I got wayyyy too many that weren't directly relevant.

SAY WHAAAAAT?!

Where's the evidence that K = TLR

(I've read Secret history, and Wax & Wayne)

[NameIess]

3 hours ago, LifeBeforeDeath said:

SAY WHAAAAAT?!

Where's the evidence that K = TLR

(I've read Secret history, and Wax & Wayne)

Kelsier isn't TLR, he's the sovereign.

[LifeBeforeDeath]

12 hours ago, Nameless said:

Kelsier isn't TLR, he's the sovereign.

Oh.

That's what I meant.

 

[NameIess]

8 hours ago, LifeBeforeDeath said:

That's what I meant.

At the end of BoM, Wax sees a memory in which the sovereign has scars on his arms and tells people to "survive".

[Aspiring Writer]

You;re forgetting one obvious thing- Kelsier used TLR myths. The Bands of Mourning are TLR's bands in myth. He purposefully perpetuated that the bands of mourning were there. He specifically wanted people to think it was TLR

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 11/9/2020 at 1:00 PM, Aspiring Writer said:

You;re forgetting one obvious thing- Kelsier used TLR myths. The Bands of Mourning are TLR's bands in myth. He purposefully perpetuated that the bands of mourning were there. He specifically wanted people to think it was TLR

Or he just repurposed a pre-existing myth, as that was easier than creating a new one.

The real reason it doesn’t work is because the North will figure it out as soon as they get a proper physical description from the South.

[Aspiring Writer]

5 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Or he just repurposed a pre-existing myth, as that was easier than creating a new one.

The real reason it doesn’t work is because the North will figure it out as soon as they get a proper physical description from the South.

Assuming his new body looks like his orignal.

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 hour ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Assuming his new body looks like his orignal.

It should, based on how Cosmere healing works. Also, he has his scars.